Warhippy Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Hypocritical Cranium said: People are the problem 100% of the time. Guns are just the weapon of choice. Bombs, cars, knives, chemicals etc can all be the weapon of choice but in the end the common denominator is people. Yet again. The GOP and NRAs solution is to give more access to and feeedom to use guns to....people. Think about that. If people are the issue why give them more access Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Standing_Tall#37 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Hugor Hill said: I don't disagree. That's why we need stricter gun control laws to try to reduce the amount of dangerous people from owning guns. Here’s the thing though. I can’t buy a gun legally. However I own some that I acquired legally that I had before all the bull$&!# around owning them came out. I know who to talk to and where to go in my rural community and I have the money and means to get all the ammo and just about any gun I want within a hour. I don’t because I don’t feel the need to have another one. But it makes me think about how easy it must be to acquire weapons illegally in the big southern cities of Canada. You can make laws till your ass bleeds if it makes you happy and feel safe. But the reality of it is... if you want to acquire a weapon, it ain’t all that hard.(assault rifle or maybe a semi auto) hell, you can even drill out cartridges or make your own that can House up to 30 bullets if you wanted to. If someone is determined enough, they’ll make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 17 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: So because guns are not killing as many people as other issues we should ignore them? Why not address all things that take away life as best we can as a society? I wonder how many of you pro-gun people would have that stance if your brother/sister or similar were killed in a school shooting or your neighbour randomly came over and shot your dog/GF/BF to death? Speaking of which a friend who lives just outside of Lethbridge had this happen where the neighbour shot my friends dog when it ran onto his yard. Not once did he blame the gun, the only one he blamed is his crazy neighbour who never had a problem with the dog prior to that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Hugor Hill said: Wow... may I ask which war that was? Wars in former Yugoslavia, this particular event took place in Bosnia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Real talk from a former NRA member: https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/23/opinions/how-the-nra-went-crazy-campbell/index.html Quote Today's NRA is simply unrecognizable from the days of the 1990s. If you were to ask me then -- when I was showing off my membership card -- if I could have predicted a day when the organization would find itself at odds with the friends and family members of shooting victims, I would have responded to the question with sheer bewilderment. Never would I have predicted seeing the NRA's chief spokesperson sickly accuse the press of loving mass shootings. What exactly happened to the organization? How did a group originally founded by responsible gun owners to promote marksmanship evolve into an entrenched political faction picking fights with high school students? I suspect that somewhere along the way the NRA was corrupted by political operatives who recognized the electoral benefits of peddling fear to its members. Although a sinister calculation, think of the political and financial benefits the organization would reap if it succeeded in convincing its members that they were under attack by a government seeking to rob them of their constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Get like-minded leaders elected, and you ensure your continued existence. Convince members they are perpetually under the threat of physical attack -- which can only be countered with a gun -- and their fears will never subside. Quote One tactic the organization uses to foment anxiety within its ranks is to perpetuate the notion that the government is attempting to seize the weapons of law-abiding citizens, and so any compromise would represent a slippery slope toward a total ban on firearms. For proof of the lucrative effect of fearmongering, look no further than the historical spike in gun sales after mass shootings, which I believe can only be explained by efforts of groups like the NRA to instill fear in their members to stock up on guns now before the government regulates them out of existence. Another favorite NRA technique is the "whataboutism," usually reserved for conversations about the actions of Russian intelligence services Sure, the San Bernardino attack involved a firearm, but what about the attackers' radical terrorist motivations? OK, so the Orlando Pulse nightclub shooter had an assault rifle, but what about the fact authorities may have failed to properly investigate him? These somersaults of logic and linguistics are creative, but they fail to admit that the common denominator in gun violence is the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 1 hour ago, RUPERTKBD said: Real talk from a former NRA member: https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/23/opinions/how-the-nra-went-crazy-campbell/index.html Skip all of that. Just ask yourself, what type of organization openly mocks the children of its own nation after surviving a mass shooting in which they watched their friends die for simply marching asking for better laws and for lobbying of special interest groups to be stopped completely. That's where the US is as a nation. Its lawmakers and their purchasers are openly mocking children who suffered horrible tragedies in order to ensure that their gravy train never stops rolling. Think the snowflakes on the spectrum of what is considered todays "right wing" cry a lot now. Wait until these kids are running for office and have a grudge to bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said: So because guns are not killing as many people as other issues we should ignore them? Why not address all things that take away life as best we can as a society? I wonder how many of you pro-gun people would have that stance if your brother/sister or similar were killed in a school shooting or your neighbour randomly came over and shot your dog/GF/BF to death? Your answer points to other things society should fix. Great. All they while your sister/brother or BF/GF was shot and killed by someone who was able to get a gun too easily. Come back and tell me society was ok in their priorities then. Good point. Why not address all things? You talk about priorities, but you focus on minutiae. You want sweeping changes to help protect a small portion of gun victims. I say small portion, because deep down you know that change in gun laws won't make that much difference. Gangs will still kill each other. Suicides have shown resourcefulness to find other means. So, all that effort, money, and political capital spent to so little purpose. What a waste. As seen in this thread, even from your own keyboard, there are people who think that other people do not need guns. Without knowing a thing about other people's lives, you make a statement like that. You mention the hypothetical of someone close to me being shot. What about the hypothetical of someone close to me having their home invaded, or robbed, attacked, or threatened. Have you ever thought how often a gun has been used to defend someone? There are plenty of things we do not need, but we have the freedom to own and use. Why is there so much focus on guns, when tobacco, alcohol, and obesity each surpass the number of non-gang related gun homicides and accidents. There are efforts made to educate people about the dangers of those three others, but it is incredibly easy for anyone to get their hands on cigarettes, alcohol, and unhealthy food, even those who shouldn't have access. But, you don't think I should have a gun, since I live in an urban area. When so few comparatively are dying because of guns, why aren't politicians aiming higher? Why is there so much talk about guns? Since there is Constitutional protection, it is not the easiest issue to tackle. It is far from the most dangerous thing to children. It is far from the most costly, from a financial impact. Priorities have nothing to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 19 hours ago, Hugor Hill said: Does getting a driver's license counts as infringing on people's rights to drive? Vehicle licensing? Your line of reasoning is way too... sensitive. Do 3500 innocent people count? That's more than the number of people who died on 9/11. How has the US government changed since 9/11? And that was just one time... Do we have a right to drive? No. Do we have a right to own a gun? Yes. Why are high-powered sports cars, or huge trucks and SUVs available? We don't all need them, and their potential for harm is higher, but anyone with a license and the money to buy the car is free to do so. No special laws or licensing My point seems to have been missed by both you and Rob Zepp. Why is there so much effort made dealing with the molehill of gun deaths, compared to the mountain of (for example) tobacco deaths? Why aren't all the people who claim to support gun control because they care for all the innocent people care for so few people, when many times more than that suffer innocently from other equally preventable causes? Where is all that effort and outcry about other more dangerous, but less politically polarizing issues? There is more to it than saving the innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, Kragar said: Do we have a right to drive? No. Do we have a right to own a gun? Yes. Why are high-powered sports cars, or huge trucks and SUVs available? We don't all need them, and their potential for harm is higher, but anyone with a license and the money to buy the car is free to do so. No special laws or licensing My point seems to have been missed by both you and Rob Zepp. Why is there so much effort made dealing with the molehill of gun deaths, compared to the mountain of (for example) tobacco deaths? Why aren't all the people who claim to support gun control because they care for all the innocent people care for so few people, when many times more than that suffer innocently from other equally preventable causes? Where is all that effort and outcry about other more dangerous, but less politically polarizing issues? There is more to it than saving the innocent. This is canada You don't actually have a right to own a gun. it is in fact a privilege here sir *edit* The other points you raise are of course significantly problematic and do hold a higher rate of economic impact. But if we had the same amount of gun deaths in Canada that the US had we'd be screaming for change. Canada has 10% of the population of the US. 7000 kids died in the US last year to guns. If 700 kids died in canada to guns, or 10% of that number there would be change. 32,000 total people died to guns in teh US last year, if 10% of that or 3200 people died to guns in canada there would be change. Much like there has been change to smoking, healthy eating guidelines and an upcoming sugar tax to combat obesity. We are a very different beast than the US thankfully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Warhippy said: This is canada You don't actually have a right to own a gun. it is in fact a privilege here sir I understand, but we were not talking about Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Just now, Kragar said: I understand, but we were not talking about Canada. Apologies, I had added more to that comment to clarify. The US is guilty of not being mature enough to enjoy the rights its forefathers gave it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Apologies, I had added more to that comment to clarify. The US is guilty of not being mature enough to enjoy the rights its forefathers gave it Thanks for the pointing out the edit. Gotta run some errands. Will respond later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Kragar said: Good point. Why not address all things? You talk about priorities, but you focus on minutiae. You want sweeping changes to help protect a small portion of gun victims. I say small portion, because deep down you know that change in gun laws won't make that much difference. Gangs will still kill each other. Suicides have shown resourcefulness to find other means. So, all that effort, money, and political capital spent to so little purpose. What a waste. As seen in this thread, even from your own keyboard, there are people who think that other people do not need guns. Without knowing a thing about other people's lives, you make a statement like that. You mention the hypothetical of someone close to me being shot. What about the hypothetical of someone close to me having their home invaded, or robbed, attacked, or threatened. Have you ever thought how often a gun has been used to defend someone? There are plenty of things we do not need, but we have the freedom to own and use. Why is there so much focus on guns, when tobacco, alcohol, and obesity each surpass the number of non-gang related gun homicides and accidents. There are efforts made to educate people about the dangers of those three others, but it is incredibly easy for anyone to get their hands on cigarettes, alcohol, and unhealthy food, even those who shouldn't have access. But, you don't think I should have a gun, since I live in an urban area. When so few comparatively are dying because of guns, why aren't politicians aiming higher? Why is there so much talk about guns? Since there is Constitutional protection, it is not the easiest issue to tackle. It is far from the most dangerous thing to children. It is far from the most costly, from a financial impact. Priorities have nothing to do with it. Most people who have guns to protect themselves never need them for that but a lot of those guns end up on wrong hands either within the household or otherwise. This phantom threat like you are living in the wild west when actual home invasions you mention are VERY rare. Again, you WANT a gun. You don't NEED a gun. That is the reality for 99% of the population in urban centers who are not LE. Disarm society and are you really concerned the "government" is going to invade you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 9 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Most people who have guns to protect themselves never need them for that but a lot of those guns end up on wrong hands either within the household or otherwise. This phantom threat like you are living in the wild west when actual home invasions you mention are VERY rare. Again, you WANT a gun. You don't NEED a gun. That is the reality for 99% of the population in urban centers who are not LE. Disarm society and are you really concerned the "government" is going to invade you? I grew up with guns. They were part of farm life. Rifles mostly, but the odd hand gun too. Now Canada’s gun laws really don’t allow for a gun to be protection. The time it takes to unlock all the parts, and get ammunition, and ... and ... It’s just not practical here. On the farm though we kept a rifle handy. Always carried one on my horse. Never needed to use it (which I think is most common) but glad I had it. The closest I came was when a couple dogs got onto the property, and attacked my horse, while I was checking fence lines. My dog chased them off. Cougar, coyote were kept off by dogs. Bear I just ignored. No guns now, even though we are in the city. I guess if I went to Surrey I’d want one though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugor Hill Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Kragar said: Do we have a right to drive? No. Do we have a right to own a gun? Yes. Why are high-powered sports cars, or huge trucks and SUVs available? We don't all need them, and their potential for harm is higher, but anyone with a license and the money to buy the car is free to do so. No special laws or licensing My point seems to have been missed by both you and Rob Zepp. Why is there so much effort made dealing with the molehill of gun deaths, compared to the mountain of (for example) tobacco deaths? Why aren't all the people who claim to support gun control because they care for all the innocent people care for so few people, when many times more than that suffer innocently from other equally preventable causes? Where is all that effort and outcry about other more dangerous, but less politically polarizing issues? There is more to it than saving the innocent. What????? We have the right to drive as long as we pass the road test. And you need special commercial licensing to drive 'huge' trucks. There has been NO effort to change gun laws, while there has been tremendous actions taken in the past by the government to discourage and restrict tobacco sales to reduce smoking related illnesses, like labelling and age restrictions. It is not more than saving the innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 The argument that there are "other things that can kill us/our kids" like tobacco, junk food. Dumb. They don't kill OTHER PEOPLE'S kids. And things like cars, knives, etc. serve other purposes and aren't intended to kill....guns are. So comparing to other things just doesn't add up. Second hand smoke is the only threat "to others" when we smoke, and there have been measures put into place to address that. Killing yourself through vices that are bad for you is one thing...having a tool that will kill others is another.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypocritical Cranium Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said: The argument that there are "other things that can kill us/our kids" like tobacco, junk food. Dumb. They don't kill OTHER PEOPLE'S kids. And things like cars, knives, etc. serve other purposes and aren't intended to kill....guns are. So comparing to other things just doesn't add up. Second hand smoke is the only threat "to others" when we smoke, and there have been measures put into place to address that. Killing yourself through vices that are bad for you is one thing...having a tool that will kill others is another.... What purpose do cigarettes serve? Alcohol? Just curious. If it's relaxation or to make you look cool than guns serve other purposes for many of the same people and for the same reasons. However, my guns allow me to feed my family in a humane way (most years) and I enjoy target shooting and it's relaxing for me. Americans have a COMPLETELY different view on guns and your message will never resonate with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, Hypocritical Cranium said: What purpose do cigarettes serve? Alcohol? Just curious. If it's relaxation or to make you look cool than guns serve other purposes for many of the same people and for the same reasons. However, my guns allow me to feed my family in a humane way (most years) and I enjoy target shooting and it's relaxing for me. Americans have a COMPLETELY different view on guns and your message will never resonate with them. Did you miss the part where I addressed this? People buy them to use on themselves, not others. Guns....not so much. The only people that should own guns in my view are those who do hunt for food with them. With a heavy burden of proof in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypocritical Cranium Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 11 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said: Did you miss the part where I addressed this? People buy them to use on themselves, not others. Guns....not so much. The only people that should own guns in my view are those who do hunt for food with them. With a heavy burden of proof in that. So when my friends were killed by a drunk driver or my grandmother was killed by cancer from second hand smoke, because those people were using them on themselves, no big deal? Guns should not be allowed in most people's hands, that is why there are strict rules here in Canada and they work well. Are you suggesting Canadian gun laws don't work because of what is happening in America or other countries? I quite like our gun laws. There are some guns I wish I could own but are illegal. I have built a couple (the pieces to build machine guns can be purchased with little problem) and I am responsible with them. The background checks done by the RCMP are solid. It's all about the owner. An inanimate does not kill someone. Behind the murder of people, the weapons are different but the one common denominator is always a human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 14 minutes ago, Hypocritical Cranium said: So when my friends were killed by a drunk driver or my grandmother was killed by cancer from second hand smoke, because those people were using them on themselves, no big deal? Guns should not be allowed in most people's hands, that is why there are strict rules here in Canada and they work well. Are you suggesting Canadian gun laws don't work because of what is happening in America or other countries? I quite like our gun laws. There are some guns I wish I could own but are illegal. I have built a couple (the pieces to build machine guns can be purchased with little problem) and I am responsible with them. The background checks done by the RCMP are solid. It's all about the owner. An inanimate does not kill someone. Behind the murder of people, the weapons are different but the one common denominator is always a human. Again, those things are horrible tragedies but not the same. It's not often that a drunk driver sets out to kill people and there are laws in place that are ignored. But cars are transportation, so serve a purpose beyond drunk driving. Guns are ONLY for killing, so a bit harder to justify "needing". And measures to protect us against second hand smoke are in place. I'd be all for banning both of these things, as they've caused me great pain in my lifetime. No argument there, either. But it won't happen. And my point was more that these things aren't "used" for weapons to hurt others, even if they inadvertently do. The problem with responsible vs irresponsible gun owners is this...if everyone has guns it makes it easier to blend in. Those with bad intent can't be distinguished from others. If guns in the US aren't so freely distributed and flooding the masses, someone packing a gun will stand out a bit more and, therefore, more identifiable as a possible threat. You're responsible but not everyone is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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