alt kilgore Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 36 minutes ago, theo5789 said: The 'best scouting talent we've had" didn't have full control and yet our drafting was doing quite fine. It sounds like things were actually working well prior to Brackett's decision to want more say (and rightfully so). Management didn't want this and now Brackett has found a place where he gets what we want. We are simply without Brackett but we will continue to move on, so unless Brackett had hidden draft crystal balls that he was hiding from management, all sides simply have gotten what they wanted in the end. How this changes the outlook of the draft for both teams remains to be seen, but I suspect it pretty much remains the same for everyone where some picks work out and some picks don't. https://canucksarmy.com/2020/06/01/monday-mailbag-who-should-you-believe-when-it-comes-to-the-judd-brackett-situation-ncaa-defencemen-and-more/ If we line up the timelines and do some critical thinking, we know this relationship went sour at the 2019 Draft. Shortly after that draft, three scouts were let go. Was Judd not the one who let those scouts go? Was he not allowed to make personnel decisions when it came to his staff? Brackett’s statement, when read carefully, leads you to believe that this is indeed the case. But wait, who’s to say that any Director of Scouting in the NHL is given that kind of power? That’s the first thing that came to my mind, because if nobody else is, then a case could be made for Brackett’s ask being above industry standards. So I checked with people who are aware of the inner workings of amateur scouting departments across the league to see if this is industry standard. The answers I got were all resounding yesses, and at the very least a Director of Amateur Scouting would have a great deal of oversight in this process. Again, Brackett’s message highlighting disagreements regarding staff personnel leads one to believe that he was not given this power. ....... Yes he won a few arguments with who to pick. Benning was not so big on Pettersson apparently. He lost that argument to Brackett, thankfully. Enough other staff sided with Judd. Seems like Brackett simply wanted the authority to do his job like every other Chief of Scouting has on other teams. Why would he stick around when other teams would grant him the minimum standard of running his own department? He earned it. His work gleaning gem prospects from the NCAA alone should have garnered him what he was asking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgyfan Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Seems like Judd wanted more autonomy in his job. The Wild should be a good place for him. There's lots of very good scouts in the NHL. Hopefully JB has someone in mind that he can snag from another team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred65 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Interesting comment Quote Brackett is well regarded around the league and it was only a matter of time until he was scooped by a team eager to improve their drafting. There were a number of suitors gunning for Brackett’s services, and the former head of the Canucks’ scouting department was unemployed for a total of nine days before deciding on a destination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 21 minutes ago, kilgore said: https://canucksarmy.com/2020/06/01/monday-mailbag-who-should-you-believe-when-it-comes-to-the-judd-brackett-situation-ncaa-defencemen-and-more/ If we line up the timelines and do some critical thinking, we know this relationship went sour at the 2019 Draft. Shortly after that draft, three scouts were let go. Was Judd not the one who let those scouts go? Was he not allowed to make personnel decisions when it came to his staff? Brackett’s statement, when read carefully, leads you to believe that this is indeed the case. But wait, who’s to say that any Director of Scouting in the NHL is given that kind of power? That’s the first thing that came to my mind, because if nobody else is, then a case could be made for Brackett’s ask being above industry standards. So I checked with people who are aware of the inner workings of amateur scouting departments across the league to see if this is industry standard. The answers I got were all resounding yesses, and at the very least a Director of Amateur Scouting would have a great deal of oversight in this process. Again, Brackett’s message highlighting disagreements regarding staff personnel leads one to believe that he was not given this power. ....... Yes he won a few arguments with who to pick. Benning was not so big on Pettersson apparently. He lost that argument to Brackett, thankfully. Enough other staff sided with Judd. Seems like Brackett simply wanted the authority to do his job like every other Chief of Scouting has on other teams. Why would he stick around when other teams would grant him the minimum standard of running his own department? He earned it. His work gleaning gem prospects from the NCAA alone should have garnered him what he was asking. As I said, he rightfully could have asked for it, but that doesn't mean we had to give him it. We had a system in place that involved others above him as well. Call it whatever you want, but it was working and no it wasn't solely on Brackett getting all the good picks. Most GMs do not have the background that Benning has towards scouting and that is something that he has revamped when he got here knowing the importance of the draft. Just because the majority of the league runs a certain way doesn't mean it's the only way and clearly the way we had things set up was working. Brackett wanted more power, Benning didn't want to give it up, so Brackett finds a place where he gets what he wants and Benning gets what he wants. Both sides win. Results to come, but no reason to think that our drafting will suddenly collapse with Brackett's departure considering Benning is the one that implemented the system that even Brackett himself has given praise to. With that said, I've beaten the dead horse over the Pettersson pick many times. If Benning "lost" the argument towards Benning, then why was he so damn excited about EP on the draft floor pointing at him and blowing our cover to trade down a pick and gain an asset while getting our target player? I could see Benning may have wanted Glass (was the consensus BPA at our pick on most draft boards, the blasphemy) at one point during the draft talks and was convinced otherwise. This is why they have their draft meetings and it shows Benning listens to his team rather than being some dictator that supposedly only makes the bad calls. I doubt draft meetings are about picking sides like some elementary school gym class, but rather a discussion of all players involved and coming to a consensus on a draft list. Besides, Benning has said that it was DeLorme who was the loud voice pushing for Pettersson, so Brackett may have been on the Glass bandwagon as well, who knows? All we know is that Benning was already decided on EP and he wanted EP as well come draft time and he made the right final call there as it's his head on the chopping block if it's the wrong pick. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10pavelbure96 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Brackett was in this org for 12 years. Where was all that draft prowess before JB was hired? He had a low batting avg before JB came around. Horvat was his only pre JB homerun. Extra gas on the fire against the Wild anyway... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 58 minutes ago, 10pavelbure96 said: Brackett was in this org for 12 years. Where was all that draft prowess before JB was hired? He had a low batting avg before JB came around. Horvat was his only pre JB homerun. Extra gas on the fire against the Wild anyway... Can't even really give Brackett credit for the Bo pick either. Since he was an amateur scout and I doubt he was scouting the OHL for the Canucks. But maybe he was, I dunno. Just feels like he would be more of a college scout than a CHL one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger-Hearted Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 The very best of luck to Judd in Minnesota. Hopefully, his experience will be far more respected compared to the lack of respect and appreciation by Canucks management and the meddling Aquilinis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, Tiger-Hearted said: The very best of luck to Judd in Minnesota. Hopefully, his experience will be far more respected compared to the lack of respect and appreciation by Canucks management and the meddling Aquilinis. Lack of respect? In what way? He was offered a 2 year contract extension. He wasn’t going to get the keys to the scouting department though. If Minny is willing to offer that to him, good for him. But there was no way with Benning and Weisbrods scouting background that they were ever going to give up complete control. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DeNiro Posted July 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 hours ago, 10pavelbure96 said: Brackett was in this org for 12 years. Where was all that draft prowess before JB was hired? He had a low batting avg before JB came around. Horvat was his only pre JB homerun. Extra gas on the fire against the Wild anyway... Shhh don’t go against the narrative. Brackett is a super scout that came out of nowhere and is responsible for only great picks. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogs & Podz Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tiger-Hearted said: The very best of luck to Judd in Minnesota. Hopefully, his experience will be far more respected compared to the lack of respect and appreciation by Canucks management and the meddling Aquilinis. He was here for 12 yrs man... He had a good run... Especially with his years under Benning. Teams on the up or at the top lose management to other teams. If the nucks keep improving as we expect we'll lose more staff to other teams willing to pay more or increase their responsibilities and or title. Gotta say... I love this team but we have to many fans that are just soo jaded. Always finding something to b!tch about. It's almost as if Benning hasn't done anything right the ways a good portion of the fan base spews venom over every decision or move Benning makes. Yah he sucks during FA. But I'll take that over sh!tty drafting! What do we want another Gillis as a GM. Can't draft worth the sh!t but is good at FA? What I'm saying is we cant have it all. Every GM we've had, has had some major strengths and major weaknesses. Pick your poison.... I for one am okay with Benning for a couple more years at least to see his hard work through. We are on the precipice of witnessing the best canuck team if all time. Yet many here are whining about... Well everything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt kilgore Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 hours ago, 10pavelbure96 said: Brackett was in this org for 12 years. Where was all that draft prowess before JB was hired? He had a low batting avg before JB came around. Horvat was his only pre JB homerun. Extra gas on the fire against the Wild anyway... A better question, Where was the draft success before Brackett was promoted to chief of amateur scouting? Before that he was learning on the job. Watching Delormes screw it up year after year. Not only did he have a specialist view on the NCAA and USHL/East players, and had an influence on those players drafted, like Brock Boeser - 23rd Thatcher Demko - 36th Will Lockwood - 64th Tyler Madden - 68th Jack Rathbone - 95th Adam Gaudette - 149th Aidan Mcdonough - 195th But he fought hard for EP with Linden, when by all reports, JB was not as keen on the undersized Swede. But after JB's insistence on picking Juolevi didn't pan out so well the draft before, he was more prone to defer to his amateur scouting department on EP, thankfully. https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/patrick-johnston-are-the-canucks-judd-brackett-headed-in-different-directions Linden acknowledged after how forcefully Brackett and co. argued in favour of taking the Alien with the fifth overall pick that year. The alternative was Cody Glass. To make EP happen, there were those in the organization who really had to lobby. “There were some heated debates in our meetings after we knew we were going to be at five,” Linden said, looking back to ’17. “The conviction those guys showed … They fought hard.” No its not the end of the world. But its these cuts of thousand knives that add up. Its another example of throwing out talent for no real good reason. Gilman, Linden, Brackett. Who's next Ian Clark? You can't prove the club would be stronger with them in it, but its safe to say the more talent in the front office the better. Or another way of putting it, why fix what ain't broke? Installing yes men like Weisbrod instead, who made a bit of a mess with Calgary's scouting, creating a smaller centralized circle just seems like going backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogs & Podz Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, DeNiro said: Shhh don’t go against the narrative. Brackett is a super scout that came out of nowhere and is responsible for only great picks. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, kilgore said: No its not the end of the world. But its these cuts of thousand knives that add up. Its another example of throwing out talent for no real good reason. Gilman, Linden, Brackett. Who's next Ian Clark? You can't prove the club would be stronger with them in it, but its safe to say the more talent in the front office the better. Or another way of putting it, why fix what ain't broke? Installing yes men like Weisbrod instead, who made a bit of a mess with Calgary's scouting, creating a smaller centralized circle just seems like going backwards. Well if we gave him autonomy over all amateur scouting it would have been an even smaller centralized circle. Benning was willing to keep working with him the way things were with everyone having input. He was never going to cut himself out of the picture though. Contrary to popular belief he does make good draft picks. Also no proof to the idea that Brackett is solely responsible for our college picks. Weisbrod is also very familiar with the college system and likely had just as much input if not more. Fans need to stop creating myths about our scouting staff. Edited July 10, 2020 by DeNiro 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt kilgore Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, DeNiro said: Lack of respect? In what way? He was offered a 2 year contract extension. He wasn’t going to get the keys to the scouting department though. If Minny is willing to offer that to him, good for him. But there was no way with Benning and Weisbrods scouting background that they were ever going to give up complete control. How about simply offering what most every other Chief of Amateur scouting has. Control over his own department? And who he hires and fires? Do you not think he deserved that level of "respect"? He's risen to not only be great on the job, bringing in and fighting for the best draft cupboard stash we've had in.....ever. Evidenced by the teams going after him right after he left. He never asked for any kind of "final say" or "complete control". That's hogwash. No GM, especially a control freak like JB would ever relinquish the final say on top picks. If you have some link to that demand, I'd like to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, kilgore said: How about simply offering what most every other Chief of Amateur scouting has. Control over his own department? And who he hires and fires? Do you not think he deserved that level of "respect"? He's risen to not only be great on the job, bringing in and fighting for the best draft cupboard stash we've had in.....ever. Evidenced by the teams going after him right after he left. He never asked for any kind of "final say" or "complete control". That's hogwash. No GM, especially a control freak like JB would ever relinquish the final say on top picks. If you have some link to that demand, I'd like to see it. Do you have any link that says he only wanted the ability to hire and fire his own people? I’m sure it was more than that. Also does anyone ever stop and consider that maybe the guy just wanted a new challenge? New scenery? New opportunities? Not everything has to be drama filled. People move on to other jobs and roles, it’s part of life. Continuing these false narratives that Benning showed him the door or didn’t offer him enough is silly. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolboarder Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, kilgore said: How about simply offering what most every other Chief of Amateur scouting has. Control over his own department? And who he hires and fires? Do you not think he deserved that level of "respect"? He's risen to not only be great on the job, bringing in and fighting for the best draft cupboard stash we've had in.....ever. Evidenced by the teams going after him right after he left. He never asked for any kind of "final say" or "complete control". That's hogwash. No GM, especially a control freak like JB would ever relinquish the final say on top picks. If you have some link to that demand, I'd like to see it. I agree with you, if there are many bad picks, do the blame falls upon? That's on GM, not the Chief of Amateur scouting. We blamed Gillis for not doing his job well on drafting day too. That is why GM would rather have some final say on who to pick because his job is in line every season if there is no improvement. GMJB rightly reserve the right to have the final say and he kept his job because of his drafting every year and the owner appreciated his work on the draft and I feel that he is the man for the job for now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 24 minutes ago, kilgore said: How about simply offering what most every other Chief of Amateur scouting has. Control over his own department? And who he hires and fires? Do you not think he deserved that level of "respect"? He's risen to not only be great on the job, bringing in and fighting for the best draft cupboard stash we've had in.....ever. Evidenced by the teams going after him right after he left. He never asked for any kind of "final say" or "complete control". That's hogwash. No GM, especially a control freak like JB would ever relinquish the final say on top picks. If you have some link to that demand, I'd like to see it. If you have a link on Benning being a control freak, I'd like to see it. It's Benning's ass on the line when a pick sucks. Of course he wants say in the draft. Cause you guys will, and did, give Brackett all the credit for good picks and all the blame went to Benning. He may as well not give up power in the draft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt kilgore Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 minute ago, DeNiro said: Do you have any link that says he only wanted the ability to hire and fire his own people? I’m sure it was more than that. Also does anyone ever stop and consider that maybe the guy just wanted a new challenge? New scenery? New opportunities? Not everything has to be drama filled. People move on to other jobs and roles, it’s part of life. Continuing these false narratives that Benning showed him the door or didn’t offer him enough is silly. There are many sources saying as much. Here's another https://www.thetelegram.com/sports/hockey/-canucks-scouting-director-judd-brackett-hired-by-minnesota-wild-471550/ Once he was put in charge of amateur scouting, his work drew the notice of Linden and by the 2017 draft, Brackett’s voice had become very influential in how the team built their draft list. Canucks’ drafts in 2017, 2018 and 2019, under Linden and Benning, are considered to be very strong and many in the industry pointed to the standards Brackett and his top lieutenants had put in place, collecting information in a coherent fashion and getting as many views in on players as possible. But after Linden left the club in 2018, Brackett and Benning grew more at odds over the team’s scouting approach, to the point where this season Brackett was offered a two-year extension by Benning but without guarantees over his role, especially in how he could direct scouts and staff his department. Again, why did he, after proving his worth, not deserve to have autonomy over his own department? Minny sure quickly agreed to it. As do most teams for their CAS. And no, hiring good people, and letting them do their jobs, as Linden allowed Brackett to do, is not making the circle smaller. Its expanding, and creating another circle outside the main one, that does its job as its expertise dictates, and then reports to the bigger circle, ultimately the owner. As the President of Hockey operations office with Linden also had existed in another circle. NOW its more like one little concentrated circle. You can call it "drama filled" or "false narratives" all you want. Its simply what happened. It is what it is, and we move on. We are lowly peons, the fans, who have no other choice but to trust our team with this management, no matter how much we bleat on a message board. I hope it all works out. For the teams sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt kilgore Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, N7Nucks said: If you have a link on Benning being a control freak, I'd like to see it. It's Benning's ass on the line when a pick sucks. Of course he wants say in the draft. Cause you guys will, and did, give Brackett all the credit for good picks and all the blame went to Benning. He may as well not give up power in the draft. Calling someone a "control freak" is a subjective opinion based on observation. Insisting Brackett demanded "final say" on picks as part of any new contract, something no chief of amateur scouting has ever asked for in the history of the NHL, is either a fact, or fiction. One or the other. So far no one has been able to link to any source for that demand. "It's Benning's ass on the line when a pick sucks. Of course he wants say in the draft" Yes, and Judd Brackett would agree with you. "Cause you guys will, and did, give Brackett all the credit for good picks and all the blame went to Benning." No, I see with my own eyes, that amateur drafting improved significantly since Brackett was hired as CAS. How he and his crew argued forcefully for EP, and helped bring in players from the NCAA and USHL like Boeser, and Gaudette. I'm not saying Benning had no role, just that when Brackett was here as CAS, results were achieved. Why not continue on? Give the man his own staff and authority over them at the very least. Pretty obvious he was given a hollow toothless offer to get rid of him. Now with Linden gone as well, JB has his own side kick and yes man Weisbrod to only have to huddle with. But he's not a control freak. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeneedLumme Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 13 hours ago, DeNiro said: Shhh don’t go against the narrative. Brackett is a super scout that came out of nowhere and is responsible for only great picks. Yes, the first half of Brackett's tenure here, before JB took over the team, the reason that Brackett did nothing of note was because...? I forget the reasons why Brackett only became considered to be a scouting god after JB took over, but the Benning hating trolls have some great rationalizations that have nothing to do with JB's guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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