(Proposal) Big moves to come!

[captaincowbasher]

     There has been lots of speculation both from fans and media, and discussion surrounding what types of pieces will be moved out to set the Canucks up for the upcoming season. We need to take a step back and assess where the team is at in its rebuild. They made the playoffs, which is exactly where management hoped they would be, and this rationalized the Tofolli deal, in which they gave up T. Madden and a second in the upcoming draft. In the playoffs their top young talent displayed a level of compete we hoped they might have. We got to see rookie Hughes, sophomore Petersson, captain Horvat, and pseudo captain Miller dominate and lead the team to one win away from competing in the Western Conference final. We also got to see strong performances from Motte, Boeser, Toffoli, Tanev, Edler, and our MVP- Markstrom and his cohort Demko.

 We can safely identify the core we want to move forward with, however, what we can't do is take steps backwards. JB must sign Markstrom who is a legit top 10 proven goalie in this league and trade Demko, as if he tries to ride with both we'll lose Demko in the expansion draft. There has been talk that we can throw an asset to Seattle, so they stay away from selecting Demko in the expansion draft, but that taking steps backwards. Why lose an asset, when you could deal Demko to get an asset that addresses a weakness on the team, taking steps forward. With that said I love Gaudette, but if we package him and Demko together we probably can get Dumba.

     Next step forward, is moving out players like Sutter, Eriksson, and Roussel. Sutter will fetch a third round pick for sure, and maybe even a second... Eriksson would need to be dealt to a team like Detroit with a player like Virtanen to sweeten the deal. We probably get a third in return as well. Eriksson real dollars left on his contract is actually not bad, and Detroit can rationalize this type of deal as they are miles away from the cap and Virtanen's upside is still to be met. He'll play on a second line and will probably hit 25 goals. They're in essence buying a good young player for a third round pick.

     The reinforcements are coming, and by that I mean Hoglander and Poldkozin. These two players are going to end up pushing guys out of spots, for example Pearson, but for now they will slot into the third line, and viola, our third line will be far more productive. This was a major concern during the our recent playoff run. Don't forget about Rathbone and OJ, as both will be ready to compete for a position in the upcoming season. 

     Can Leivo play center? if he can he could fulfill their need, otherwise we should not resign him, and they'll move Stecher as well.  

 

Flame away...

[Nucker 67]

I think Benning eventually keeps Demko over Markstrom. The signs are there. Demko is the future. But saying that, as a team needs to two good goalies to win, I believe Markstrom will sign a very reasonable deal just to stay in VAN. Same thing with Tanev. Good guy, wants to play here, his deal will be very reasonable.

 

Just a wild guess

 

UFAs - Markstrom, Toffoli, Leivo and Tanev will be re-signed. 

RFAs - Virtanen, Motte, Gaudette, MacEwen and Chatfield will also be re-signed.

 

Benning will magically be able to trade Sutter, Eriksson and Roussel. Perhaps Virtanen, Gaudette and Rafferty, etc. will be added pieces.

 

Miller - Pettersson - Boeser

Pearson - Horvat - Toffoli

?? - ?? - MacEwen

Motte - Beagle - ??

Lind

(VAN has to improve the bottom 6)

 

Edler - ??

Hughes - Tanev

Juolevi - Myers

Chatfield

(VAN needs a presence in the top pairing)

 

Marksrom

Demko

 

 

 

[Odjick the Warrior]

11 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

I think Benning eventually keeps Demko over Markstrom. The signs are there. Demko is the future. But saying that, as a team needs to two good goalies to win, I believe Markstrom will sign a very reasonable deal just to stay in VAN. Same thing with Tanev. Good guy, wants to play here, his deal will be very reasonable.

 

Just a wild guess

 

UFAs - Markstrom, Toffoli, Leivo and Tanev will be re-signed. 

RFAs - Virtanen, Motte, Gaudette, MacEwen and Chatfield will also be re-signed.

 

Benning will magically be able to trade Sutter, Eriksson and Roussel. Perhaps Virtanen, Gaudette and Rafferty, etc. will be added pieces.

 

Miller - Pettersson - Boeser

Pearson - Horvat - Toffoli

?? - ?? - MacEwen

Motte - Beagle - ??

Lind

(VAN has to improve the bottom 6)

 

Edler - ??

Hughes - Tanev

Juolevi - Myers

Chatfield

(VAN needs a presence in the top pairing)

 

Marksrom

Demko

 

 

 

How will Benning be able to trade Roussel, Sutter and Ericksson in one off-season and not taking back the same type of garbage contracts?

The Canucks need to let Markstrom and Tanev walk or trade their rights in order to re-sign Toffoli as he is a harder player to find then a Tanev type player who is on the downward slope of his career or a veteran goalie that will push Demko and not handcuff the team down the road with a NMC or NTC and having to protect Markstrom over Demko in the expansion draft.

The reported available defenseman that can replace Tanev through trade are OEL, Ekblad, Subban, Hanafin, Manson, Hjalmarsson and Tanev will want a minimum 4 year deal at least $5 million per season and a NTC which is high for someone who can’t play 70 games in a season. 
Benning has to think like Belichek does when putting a roster together and that is it’s better to walk away from a player a year or two early then 2 years to late. I would much rather get either of the Arizona defenseman in a trade then being stuck with Myers and Tanev 3 years from now.

Also Virtanen is going to be redundant when Podkolzn shows up and he has more trade value now after this past season

[IBatch]

42 minutes ago, IjustNEEDaTROYgamble said:

How will Benning be able to trade Roussel, Sutter and Ericksson in one off-season and not taking back the same type of garbage contracts?

The Canucks need to let Markstrom and Tanev walk or trade their rights in order to re-sign Toffoli as he is a harder player to find then a Tanev type player who is on the downward slope of his career or a veteran goalie that will push Demko and not handcuff the team down the road with a NMC or NTC and having to protect Markstrom over Demko in the expansion draft.

The reported available defenseman that can replace Tanev through trade are OEL, Ekblad, Subban, Hanafin, Manson, Hjalmarsson and Tanev will want a minimum 4 year deal at least $5 million per season and a NTC which is high for someone who can’t play 70 games in a season. 
Benning has to think like Belichek does when putting a roster together and that is it’s better to walk away from a player a year or two early then 2 years to late. I would much rather get either of the Arizona defenseman in a trade then being stuck with Myers and Tanev 3 years from now.

Also Virtanen is going to be redundant when Podkolzn shows up and he has more trade value now after this past season

Dobber hockey by the numbers without bias has Tanevs actual value at just under 3.3.   Stetchers at 3.1.   His leadership and intangibles to me personally don’t push that over 4.  I doubt Tanev gets a long term deal at 5 anywhere, even without Covid, if it happens here it will be just another overpaid vet, although a fan favourite for sure.   Podz is a RW.   JV on a long term deal came in at 4.7, AG around 4.  Both bridged will cost us a lot less but that’s what the team needs to consider long term for both spots if they continue to get better.    For us TT isn’t as hard to find because we could have one in JV just (doubt it though) or for sure Podz (best RW prospect in the world at the moment).  
 

 

Fanta at 1 million is excellent value.   OJ and Rafferty need games to see who we should protect at the ED, and more importantly next season we need major dough to sign EP and QHs - the longer the deal the better for our long term cap.   Don’t need one or both those guys bridged to when Horvat, BB and Miller are up do we? 
 

Also I absolutely agree that the costs to find a new home for LE is just a waste of time.   Just use him on the fourth line and PK - worth 2-3 for that. Motte deserves a promotion for sure - fund a new home for Roussel if there is a hitch then find a new home for Pearson - his actual numbers without the EN points are on par with JVs ... with quite a bit more ice time with better players.   

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by IBatch

[Patel Bure]

A clever way to allow for the Canucks to walk away from Markstrom and Tanev without having our overall level of play impacted too much:  
 

The more I think about the following idea, the more that I’m starting to really love it.

 

1) Sign Toffoli

2) Trade Boeser and Sutter to the Wild for Dumba and Dubnyk (cap hits are almost mirror images of one another)

3) Allow Markstrom and Tanev to walk which would clear over 7 million in cap space.

4) Dubnyk takes on the “1A” role which allows Demko to break in as the number one goalie (Demko starts about 65% of games.....maybe more if he can handle it and/or proves capable).  After one year, Dubnyk is possibly replaced with Dipietro.

4) Guys like Ferland can be LTIR’d + Baertschi can be moved at 50% retention to save on additional cap.   
5) If Benn can be moved at zero retentionand Stecher can be signed at 2-2.5 millionish, keep Stecher.

 

Miller-Pettersson-Toffoli

Pearson-Horvat-Eriksson

Roussel-Gaudette-Virtanen

Motte-Beagle-MacEwen

 

Bailey

 

Hughes-Dumba

Edler-Myers

Juolevi-Stecher

 

Demko

Dubnyk

[Odjick the Warrior]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Dobber hockey by the numbers without bias has Tanevs actual value at just under 3.3.   Stetchers at 3.1.   His leadership and intangibles to me personally don’t push that over 4.  I doubt Tanev gets a long term deal at 5 anywhere, even without Covid, if it happens here it will be just another overpaid vet, although a fan favourite for sure.   Podz is a RW.   JV on a long term deal came in at 4.7, AG around 4.  Both bridged will cost us a lot less but that’s what the team needs to consider long term for both spots if they continue to get better.    For us TT isn’t as hard to find because we could have one in JV just (doubt it though) or for sure Podz (best RW prospect in the world at the moment).  
 

 

Fanta at 1 million is excellent value.   OJ and Rafferty need games to see who we should protect at the ED, and more importantly next season we need major dough to sign EP and QHs - the longer the deal the better for our long term cap.   Don’t need one or both those guys bridged to when Horvat, BB and Miller are up do we? 
 

Also I absolutely agree that the costs to find a new home for LE is just a waste of time.   Just use him on the fourth line and PK - worth 2-3 for that. Motte deserves a promotion for sure - fund a new home for Roussel if there is a hitch then find a new home for Pearson - his actual numbers without the EN points are on par with JVs ... with quite a bit more ice time with better players.   

 

Stop listing dobber hockey or other hockey sites geek numbers if you don’t understand what those numbers mean or how they got them because it makes you sound like a fool like when fans say we referencing their team.

Toffoli is a harder player to find as he is true playoff performer with Rings and the same with Boeser but without the rings and experience and you don’t let those guys walk or trade them unless you are getting a top 4 defenseman to play with Hughes and Canucks can still get all the above as long as they walk from Markstrom and Tanev and trade Virtanen and Stetcher as Stetcher can be replaced by Juolevi or Rafferty or Rathbone and the Canucks will need one of those guys to be a regular next season because of their rookie contract and it’s better if you have an open competition between those guys and a veteran on a PTO to push them and make them work for it. 

[Provost]

My dream moves any/all of them.... of course most of them will never happen

- Eriksson and Virtanen out as a package to clear cap
- Trade for Killorn and Cernak from Tampa
- Trade Baertschi , Roussel, Benn, and one of Beagle or Sutter
- Trade Gaudette for Tierney
- Sign Toffoli, Leivo, Motte, and Markstrom (only at a reasonable price with no NMC protection for expansion)
- Sign Tanev to a 3-4 deal for under $5 million

Miller-Petterson-Toffoli
Killorn-Horvat-Boeser
Pearson-Tierney-Leivo
Motte-Sutter-MacEwan

Hughes-Tanev
Edler-Cernak
Juolevi-Myers

Markstrom
Demko

... around an $76-78 million dollar roster there (including the Luongo and Spooner charges and pushed ELC overage) and significantly better on paper than what we had this year.  Of course they aren't going to do all that, it is just an illustration of the power of shedding dead cap and how those current bad contracts are really limiting our options to improve.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Provost

[sockeye]

3 hours ago, Provost said:

My dream moves any/all of them.... of course most of them will never happen

- Eriksson and Virtanen out as a package to clear cap
- Trade for Killorn and Cernak from Tampa
- Trade Baertschi , Roussel, Benn, and one of Beagle or Sutter
- Trade Gaudette for Tierney
- Sign Toffoli, Leivo, Motte, and Markstrom (only at a reasonable price with no NMC protection for expansion)
- Sign Tanev to a 3-4 deal for under $5 million

Miller-Petterson-Toffoli
Killorn-Horvat-Boeser
Pearson-Tierney-Leivo
Motte-Sutter-MacEwan

Hughes-Tanev
Edler-Cernak
Juolevi-Myers

Markstrom
Demko

... around an $76-78 million dollar roster there (including the Luongo and Spooner charges and pushed ELC overage) and significantly better on paper than what we had this year.  Of course they aren't going to do all that, it is just an illustration of the power of shedding dead cap and how those current bad contracts are really limiting our options to improve.

Not likely to happen.  Regarding trading for Killorn and Cernak, these players will come with a high price - not Sutter, Roussel, Beagle, Motte, Pearson or Virtanen, unless high draft picks are involved.

[Provost]

20 minutes ago, sockeye said:

Not likely to happen.  Regarding trading for Killorn and Cernak, these players will come with a high price - not Sutter, Roussel, Beagle, Motte, Pearson or Virtanen, unless high draft picks are involved.

Nobody said to trade them for our cast offs... that was why they were different line items.

 

The price isn’t likely going to be nearly as high as you seem to think though.  Few buyers to take on cap hits and a desperate position for Tampa with about a week to offload salary before they are subject to getting destroyed by potential offers sheets for Cernak, Corelli, and Sergachev that they can’t hope to match.

[Gollumpus]

People are trying to be far too sensible with this.

 

Currently there are only five teams which are below the cap floor, Colorado, New Jersey, Buffalo, Detroit and Ottawa. These are the likely targets for teams (like the Canucks) who are looking to dump contracts/cap. These "below the cap floor" teams know that they are being looked at because of their cap space, and they know that they can command a high price for said cap space. Also, teams are trying to get their assets sorted with the expansion draft coming up, so even if you have a player with a NMC who will agree to be moved (not Eriksson as his NMC has expired), and has a high cap hit/low salary type of contract, it doesn't mean that the potential receiving team won't ask more than what might otherwise be seen as a fair deal because they have to keep in mind their own potential issues of who to protect in the expansion draft.

 

With the above in mind, if the Canucks are hoping to get rid of Eriksson via trade I suspect that they are going to have to part with something more than just Virtanen (and as a FYI, I like Virtanen and I believe he's got a good career ahead of him). It may be Virtanen +, or it may be a 1st round pick + (earliest available is 2021), but either way it seems likely that they will have to pay more than some are thinking. 

 

My suggestion is this, rather than let valuable assets walk, or make several smaller trades as the means of getting the required cap space just make one trade.

 

Of the five below the cap floor teams, find out which one wants to deal and make them an offer: the Canucks will give them Eriksson (and he'll have to agree to not include said team on his M-NTC), and one (or more!) of the guys from the following: Sutter, Roussel, Beagle ( I like Beagle, and would hate to see him go), Baertschi, Benn. This is a total of almost $22 million in cap space (and if Ferland "retires" then this goes to around $25 million and change). The more they take, the more they get in return.

 

What's available to go with these guys in a package? First round picks in 2021 & 2022 would be on the table, as well as 2nds etc - there is a young team here, and there would be a lot of cap space being freed up, so free agents could be brought in to tide the Canucks over until the 2023 draft. Further, believing that this team is going places there is a pretty good chance that these 1sts being given up are bottom third in the draft (yes, Boeser, etc. etc). Also, take your choice of favourite whipping boys from the non-core group and put them on the table (Virtanen, Gaudette, Pearson, and maybe even Juolevi). Who is available depends on just how much cap the receiving teams wants to take on.

 

The Canucks (currently) have $14 million in cap space. Eriksson gone puts that to $20 million. One more from the want to trade list puts that free cap space to maybe around $24+ million.

 

The Canucks don't really have to move "much" in the way of players and their cap, they just have to be willing to pay to do it, sooner rather than later (when the prices may go up), and to realize that for the sake of time they shouldn't try to do it cheaply.

 

                                                                  regards,  G.

[sockeye]

42 minutes ago, Provost said:

Nobody said to trade them for our cast offs... that was why they were different line items.

 

The price isn’t likely going to be nearly as high as you seem to think though.  Few buyers to take on cap hits and a desperate position for Tampa with about a week to offload salary before they are subject to getting destroyed by potential offers sheets for Cernak, Corelli, and Sergachev that they can’t hope to match.

Well, I hope you're right and the price is reasonable.  Time will tell.

[Provost]

1 hour ago, sockeye said:

Well, I hope you're right and the price is reasonable.  Time will tell.

Yep... something like Rafferty and a 2022  2nd rounder.  Maybe a lower level prospect thrown in or a later 2021 pick.  They can’t take any cap space back and it is doubtful anyone pays them a 1st round pick to me (especially since an offer sheet for Cernak only costs a 2nd.  Killorn is a needed cap dump.

[BigTramFan]

5 hours ago, Provost said:

Yep... something like Rafferty and a 2022  2nd rounder.  Maybe a lower level prospect thrown in or a later 2021 pick.  They can’t take any cap space back and it is doubtful anyone pays them a 1st round pick to me (especially since an offer sheet for Cernak only costs a 2nd.  Killorn is a needed cap dump.

I'd love to get Killorn and Cernak. There are a lot of interesting moves coming from TBL, that's for sure.

 

I can't see any of their NTC/NMC guys waiving. Why would you?

 

I think more likely that TBL trades Killorn, Cernak, Cirelli and Sergachev in return for fairly high end players on already low salaries with 50% retained.

 

E.g. Cirelli + McElhinney for Dumba + Stalock (both 50% retained) --- its expensive for MIN but they might do this just to get their #1 center

 

Dumba paired with Hedman allows TBL to trade Cernak and/or Sergachev for more offensive fire power...etc. 

 

It means TBL are purging their future top end talent, but all their NTC/NMC's are forcing their own hand! 

Edited September 21, 2020 by BigTramFan

[Lazurus]

Hughes and Boeser to Buffalo for Dahlin and their 1rst and a 2nd.

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, Lazurus said:

Hughes and Boeser to Buffalo for Dahlin and their 1rst and a 2nd.

Eh. Dahlin only has a slightly higher ceiling than Hughes but we’re still giving up 2 solid pieces for 1. 
 

I would do that if I were Buffalo. 8th and 38th overall are more what ifs than Boeser and Hughes only has slightly lower value than Dahlin only due to potential, they are pretty similar value/level. 
 

I wouldn’t do that as Canucks. Dahlin would fit in Hughes’s role but it puts us a step back, losing a solid top 6 forward in Boeser for question marks in picks. The risk on top of being further along in competition/success is too great. 

[Lazurus]

4 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Eh. Dahlin only has a slightly higher ceiling than Hughes but we’re still giving up 2 solid pieces for 1. 
 

I would do that if I were Buffalo. 8th and 38th overall are more what ifs than Boeser and Hughes only has slightly lower value than Dahlin only due to potential, they are pretty similar value/level. 
 

I wouldn’t do that as Canucks. Dahlin would fit in Hughes’s role but it puts us a step back, losing a solid top 6 forward in Boeser for question marks in picks. The risk on top of being further along in competition/success is too great. 

If done the Canucks get a better handle on the cap in two years.

Dahlin is a more rounded defenseman, maybe not as dynamic skater but better defensively.

 

Virtanen almost scored as many goals as Brock without the benefit of PP time. Boeser could be replaced by committee.

 

Buffalo does this deal because Eichel is all but demanding a trade, in getting Hughes, losing Dahlin isn't so bad and Boeser's reputation adds a sniper for Eichel

 

Hughes = stud, Dahilin = STUD.

 

It is a pretty good deal for both teams, with Buffalo being a little farther along in their, well I guess it will be a re-tooling now.

 

Holander, Podlkzin this year's 1rst and maybe 2nd, qualify as top six, do any of them?

 

This year has to be accounting, money, setting up the cap structure for the next 3 years. Dahlin gets to play with Petey, that could be very dynamic.

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, Lazurus said:

If done the Canucks get a better handle on the cap in two years.

Dahlin is a more rounded defenseman, maybe not as dynamic skater but better defensively.

 

Virtanen almost scored as many goals as Brock without the benefit of PP time. Boeser could be replaced by committee.

 

Buffalo does this deal because Eichel is all but demanding a trade, in getting Hughes, losing Dahlin isn't so bad and Boeser's reputation adds a sniper for Eichel

 

Hughes = stud, Dahilin = STUD.

 

It is a pretty good deal for both teams, with Buffalo being a little farther along in their, well I guess it will be a re-tooling now.

 

Holander, Podlkzin this year's 1rst and maybe 2nd, qualify as top six, do any of them?

 

This year has to be accounting, money, setting up the cap structure for the next 3 years. Dahlin gets to play with Petey, that could be very dynamic.

Dahlin is a bit more raw than Hughes but has more defensive potential hence why he has a higher ceiling. Dahlin has pretty good numbers offensively already but he hasn’t been used much on the defensive end last year. Buffalo likes to use Risto and others a lot defensively but I expect Dahlin to gradually be given more responsibilities, especially if they move a defenseman. 
 

Overall Dahlin has more room to grow in his game and the physical attributes capable and of making him an all encompassing two-way defenseman. 
 

He’s still a developing player though, like Hughes. 

[spur1]

4 hours ago, Lazurus said:

Hughes and Boeser to Buffalo for Dahlin and their 1rst and a 2nd.

Got to give you a participation medal for that proposal. It is the most unlikely proposal to happen I have seen in a long time. 

[Lazurus]

1 hour ago, spur1 said:

Got to give you a participation medal for that proposal. It is the most unlikely proposal to happen I have seen in a long time. 

Why would you say that?

It actually really makes a lot of sense for both teams.

Buffalo is in need of a sniper to play with Eichel, a younger, bigger and cheaper guy than Skinner.

 

This could give both teams a tremendous boost.

Probably push Buffalo into a playoff spot next season.

[Thirston]

1 hour ago, spur1 said:

Got to give you a participation medal for that proposal. It is the most unlikely proposal to happen I have seen in a long time. 

Gotta agree, that’s never gonna happen. It’s possible hughs will be a Norris trophy winner, we just won’t know for probably at least few years and that’s not just hometown fans saying it, it’s hockey writers from all over the nhl.  If Boeser plays close to what he did in his rookie year then he is easily worth more than 2 picks which is just a crap shoot anyway.