[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 6.0

[Canuck Surfer]

You are categorizing the buyers; young emerging teams for Schneider and play off teams for Lou!

In reality; it may be the opposite. Lou has less upside than Schneider but as strange as it sounds certainly has less risk as well. He is amongst career leaders in save % in the history of the league. There is little better an emerging team like Edmonton, or one that would like to be, such as Florida could ask for?

But a Tampa, which has aspirations on a cup also knows Lou's history. Which as much as he has a superlative save %, has a habit of dropping it for one or 3 game stints, at the wrong time. He relies on athleticism, and he battles, but has flaws which confound his confidence every now and again.. They see the young, nearly technically perfect, composed and patient Schneider as a guy who would hold it together when it matters most.

You have your buyers and their product mixed up?

The team we should throw Schneider at is Washington!

Here is the conundrum as far as I see it. Luongo, if moved, would need to be traded for smallish pieces and prospects. He'll only be going to a competitive team that won't likely give up a major star. Schneider, if moved, needs to bring back an all-star in return. Most of the teams bidding for his services don't seem to have a game breaker. Alas, the third scenario is the Nucks only adding small pieces through deadline draft pick trades and waiting until the summer. This could feel like a very long 48 games if we stand pat.

[TmanVan]

Kadri, Bozak/Frattin, and Scrivens sure would look good right about now. But wait Kadri is a bust career ahler !!!!!

I still can't believe people were saying he was a bust just because his body fat was a couple % too high at the start of training camp too, like it was something that couldn't be fixed.

Also don't understand CDC logic: Shawn Matthias is 6'4", Kadri is only 6', Mathhias is clearly the superior player who should be targeted!

[BertuzziJr 2.0]

Kadri, Bozak/Frattin, and Scrivens sure would look good right about now. But wait Kadri is a bust career ahler !!!!!

I still can't believe people were saying he was a bust just because his body fat was a couple % too high at the start of training camp too, like it was something that couldn't be fixed.

Also don't understand CDC logic: Shawn Matthias is 6'4", Kadri is only 6', Mathhias is clearly the superior player who should be targeted!

[TmanVan]

I really hope nobody actually said that...

[elvis15]

...

So what's the hold up?

I do not think it is Gillis' asking price, I think it is the $$$ WSH has 3 large contracts, OVI and Backstrom are signed until the end of time to money they are not worth.

...

[Plaguez]

Like I said maybe for Schneider + something else... but would you do that trade?

[MoneypuckOverlord]

Deleted the juvenile retarded portion. Now on to the question, I'll answer it the second you finish asking it. What is this + something?

[oldnews]

What people were actually saying around here at the time Kadri to Vancouver was a "done deal" was Kadri doesn't fit as a third liner, someone like Matthias should be targeted instead because he fits the role better. Then quite a few people around here defended to the death that Kadri was an overweight bust whose Ahl numbers meant nothing, and a small handful of people, including myself, argued that his high body fat % is something that is easily remedied, and that he is by no means a bust just because he didn't make the nhl ad a teenager or 20 year old. The same group of people said Kadri as a main ( but not the only) piece in a trade is ok given his potential, but then the masses called that stupid, said we have to WIN NOW, and continued with a lot of trade proposals with third liners as a centrepiece, something I didn't really understand.

[apollo]

All those people blaming mg for not doing the kadri trade were the same ones against it during the summer ... the guy has a 20 good games and all of a sudden he's worth more than Roberto luongo??? Give ur head a shake... u don't trade a franchise goalie for a guy that has twenty good games.

Seriously give your head a shake. Next uup lets trade henrik sedin for Sam gagner and a third line player?

And then next up lets build a time machine and trade Jason king during his fifteen good games he had that one year for peter forsberg

[TmanVan]

That's a lot of convolution. You're revising the posts of a bunch of people with different opinions and summarizing them all in a rather "group" simplistic way.

For example, my personal opinion was that Kadri is a talented offensive player who the Leafs couldn't afford to move anyhow given their lack of depth at center and Bozak's pending UFA status, and also, is not a good fit for Vancouver. What you don't seem to be considering is how Kadri is being used in Toronto. Toronot's other centers - Grabovski 33.5% offensive zone starts, Bozak 45.2%, McClement 32.2% - tailoring Kadri's minutes to offensive zone starts against the opponents weakest quality of competition. Corsi Rel QofC - Grabovski +1.595, Bozak +.724, McClement +.627, Kadri -.141.

The Canucks however have a guy named Henrik Sedin at 69.2% offensive zone starts, and already have a rookie who also gets primarily offensive zone starts. Even if you take Kesler out of the Canucks lineup, Kadri still isn't a very good fit - perhaps even less so. The Canucks still need a legitimate third line type center - particularly with the loss of Malhotra. Ironic that you are attempting to claim that folks here who were calling for a third line center were shortsighted (and not sure where you get this myth of a Matthias consensus) - it would appear that the loss of two outstanding defensive centers has only increased that need and the point of their/our arguments. That Kadri, Bozak/Frattin, Scrivens thing you refered to - how would the Leafs manage if they move two centers in Kadri and Bozak? Have you looked at their roster?

I also don't recall anyone making much of a Scrivens inclusion/exclusion in a deal - but now, he's probably another Leafs untouchable LOL. Who needs Luongo? They have "Scrivezina"!

Kadri - still not the answer - but not surprised that a few folks here take the timing of a hat trick to suggest that it proves their point. I've heard it from GMs repeatedly - they don't cut deals (particularly for franchise goaltenders) as a reaction to a (short term) injury. Most of us considered Bozak a better option for both teams considering the type of player he is and the fact the Leafs weren't really in any position to give up their young skilled center prospect (and with all due respect, the Canucks are much richer than them in that sense.)

As for Frattin looking pretty good - agreed - have thought he's the best Leafs fit for quite some time (not simply a reaction to the fact he's come in and put up 10 points in 10 games).

[TmanVan]

All those people blaming mg for not doing the kadri trade were the same ones against it during the summer ... the guy has a 20 good games and all of a sudden he's worth more than Roberto luongo??? Give ur head a shake... u don't trade a franchise goalie for a guy that has twenty good games.

Seriously give your head a shake. Next uup lets trade henrik sedin for Sam gagner and a third line player?

And then next up lets build a time machine and trade Jason king during his fifteen good games he had that one year for peter forsberg

[oldnews]

Of course it's a generalization on my part, I can't cover every posters opinion in a couple sentences.

Also I think the whole "doesn't fit the role" thing is over played. Kadri doesn't fit the role of a third line center, and wouldn't be a good fit for the canucks.... you hear it from people on here all time, yet Kesler started there, Hodgson was there last year, and Schroeder is there now, how would Kadri be any different?

All corsi stats about offensive zone starts aside, he would have been given plenty of oppurtunity on the 2nd line, 3rd line, and 2nd unit power play. People seem stuck in this mindset that the Canucks third line center must be a defensive specialist, with a big body, in lieu of any offensive talent. That strikes me as odd because usually the teams that go deep in the playoffs have secondary scoring that runs three lines deep, and you think thats what people here would want considering how goals seem to dry up for the Canucks in the playoffs.

Did Lappierre or Sammy Pahlsson provide more than Kadri could as a 3c? Would David Steckel, Shawn Matthias, Travis Moen, or Tyler Bozak really be a better option just because they fit the mold of a third liner better? Guess we'll never know!

[TmanVan]

That's an odd hodge podge of players you've lumped together - Steckel (a faceoff specialist), Matthias (a young center the Panthers are attempting to turn into a two way tweener), Moen (a left wing - not a realistic center option), and ironically Bozak, a guy who, as I mentioned is getting 45.2% offensive zone starts (partly, no doubt, to accommodate Kadri) - while he scored 47 points last year - not sure if that's your idea of "in lieu of any offensive talent", but as a third line C candidate, probably adequate...

[Claiborne55]

Deleted the juvenile retarded portion. Now on to the question, I'll answer it the second you finish asking it. What is this + something?

[theminister]

That's a lot of convolution. You're revising the posts of a bunch of people with different opinions and summarizing them all in a rather "group" simplistic way.

For example, my personal opinion was that Kadri is a talented offensive player who the Leafs couldn't afford to move anyhow given their lack of depth at center and Bozak's pending UFA status, and also, is not a good fit for Vancouver. What you don't seem to be considering is how Kadri is being used in Toronto. Toronot's other centers - Grabovski 33.5% offensive zone starts, Bozak 45.2%, McClement 32.2% - tailoring Kadri's minutes to offensive zone starts against the opponents weakest quality of competition. Corsi Rel QofC - Grabovski +1.595, Bozak +.724, McClement +.627, Kadri -.141.

The Canucks however have a guy named Henrik Sedin at 69.2% offensive zone starts, and already have a rookie who also gets primarily offensive zone starts. Even if you take Kesler out of the Canucks lineup, Kadri still isn't a very good fit - perhaps even less so. The Canucks still need a legitimate third line type center - particularly with the loss of Malhotra. Ironic that you are attempting to claim that folks here who were calling for a third line center were shortsighted (and not sure where you get this myth of a Matthias consensus) - it would appear that the loss of two outstanding defensive centers has only increased that need and the point of their/our arguments. That Kadri, Bozak/Frattin, Scrivens thing you refered to - how would the Leafs manage if they move two centers in Kadri and Bozak? Have you looked at their roster?

I also don't recall anyone making much of a Scrivens inclusion/exclusion in a deal - but now, he's probably another Leafs untouchable LOL. Who needs Luongo? They have "Scrivezina"!

Kadri - still not the answer - but not surprised that a few folks here take the timing of a hat trick to suggest that it proves their point. I've heard it from GMs repeatedly - they don't cut deals (particularly for franchise goaltenders) as a reaction to a (short term) injury. Most of us considered Bozak a better option for both teams considering the type of player he is and the fact the Leafs weren't really in any position to give up their young skilled center prospect (and with all due respect, the Canucks are much richer than them in that sense.)

As for Frattin looking pretty good - agreed - have thought he's the best Leafs fit for quite some time (not simply a reaction to the fact he's come in and put up 10 points in 10 games).

[oldnews]

Just names used alot on this board as to who 3rd line targets should be.

[oldnews]

What...just matching YOUR juvenile comments... you won't answer because you want me to tell you your own trade offer.... geeeez

Luongo for Hedman will never happen

Schneider for Hedman is plausible .. but Tampa Bay will want more... think about it....Hedman is going to be their best D man for the next 10 years plus...

So the question "+" is what else would you give up with Schneider to get Hedman: Kassian, Booth, Raymond, Edler, Ballard or...what do "you" think it would take? Tampa isn't employing Mike Milbury you know it's the Great Gold Medal Winner GM. Think about it.

[theminister]

I've never seen Moen proposed as a 3rd C option, I've suggested Steckel could be a good fourth line faceoff specialist to step into the loss of Manny, Smashian likes Matthias - I'd prefer Goc but wouldn't complain if Matthias were added - in any event, about the only common thing I see in all these players - they wouldn't cost anywhere near the assets the hyper-valued Kadri, and they all bring an element he doesn't. If Kadri were added, the Canucks imo would still need to make another depth C addition - that's kind of the point - where they could certainly get away without adding Kadri, I doubt they'll want to proceed without the depth center. Pinizzotto may fit that bill quite nicely if he returns to health, but the bottom line as far as I'm concerned - the Leafs can't afford to move Kadri, which means he'd be an overpayment, and an overpayment for a player of that type makes very little sense if you look at the actual context for Vancouver.

[oldnews]

Yeah, it seems like he's generalizing pieces that have been suggested in every possible combination.

If anything, guys like Goc, Matthias and Steckel have been mentioned as additions to packages that suit the perceived needs of the Canucks better. There's only a couple of ridiculous posters that have suggested they'd be centrepieces.

IMO, Goc/Matthias and Bjustad still fits the needs of the franchise better than Kadri and Bozak even if the latter two are both currently playing. But this is how trade evaluations go.... you give up a little value on one piece to upgrade at another area.

[Plaguez]

So the question "+" is what else would you give up with Schneider to get Hedman: Kassian, Booth, Raymond, Edler, Ballard or what do "you" think it would take?