[PGT] Things are not adding up guys.

[marc2001]

Outside of Hamhuis, the other defensemen were worse under AV. This team lacks a strong, consistent defense. They still let the opposition have their way in the blue paint. The present d-core won't take any team far.

Only Difference now is we can't score our way out of trouble, we only managed to do that to Phoenix and that was pure luck.

[Gurn]

"the team is full of fwds who could score under AV" Not for the last 2 years of AV

"The team is also full of d-men who were excellent defenders under AV " The team,not just d-men, had not been great defensively for last 2 years under AV.

[NightHawkSniper]

Sedin's are probably trying to make sure they are 100% for the olympics and don't wanna sprain anything

[mikeburn]

system? I don't see no stinking system. ask yourself this........the team is full of fwds who could score under AV, who are no longer scoring under Torts. The team is also full of d-men who were excellent defenders under AV and are no lonmger those rock solid defenders..........whats the common denominator here?

The common denominators are the players, particularly the core - which have aged, sure, but gracefully and STILL not rece'd any support from the addition of fresh quality blood.

AV squandered, if not the window (as in the only window), then at least a window. Torts is stuck stickhandling a core that is at least moderately beyond it's prime while the other common denominator (aka: Gillis, once a self-proclaimed master of navigating cap numbers) hasn't found a way to freshen up the stock in any meaningful way.

[Absent Canuck]

Two terrible giveaways, but both came from him trying to make a play in the offensive zone, not from laziness or lack of hockey IQ. Did I like it? No, but I am happy to seem him with the confidence to try and make things happen and drive the play. If I am the coaching staff, I tell him to make sure of plays, but to keep trying to make them. His confidence is growing by the game and I don't want him to take steps back right now. The team is going nowhere, he might as well try those kinds of things, imo.

+1

I was going to say this but I am already such a homer for Kass that it sounds a lot better coming from someone else first.

This is something Torts would never put up with, but he should because Kass has to make those mistakes so by next year he will be making the same plays but succeeding with them. He is on his way to become every bit as good as Bertuzzi was. Lets not stall his development.

[oldnews]

Two terrible giveaways, but both came from him trying to make a play in the offensive zone, not from laziness or lack of hockey IQ. Did I like it? No, but I am happy to seem him with the confidence to try and make things happen and drive the play. If I am the coaching staff, I tell him to make sure of plays, but to keep trying to make them. His confidence is growing by the game and I don't want him to take steps back right now. The team is going nowhere, he might as well try those kinds of things, imo.

I also think there was a situational element to Kassian attempting to provide a puck moving element.

The Canucks were struggling to gain entrance last night. Where Hank's notable adeptness in this respect was absent, we saw a number of rushes where Kesler was attempting to carry the puck and gain the zone with speed. The team as a whole was out of sorts at the Oilers blueline on a lot of occasions last night - offsides, a lack of puck support, and generally uncoordinated efforts - and as Valk pointed out, a reluctance to dump and chase for some reason and make the Oilers not terribly intimidating blueline turn their backs.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Kassian with his combination of speed and very good hands was identified as a guy who could step up and provide a puck moving element in Henrik's absence. Aside from Schroeder (and with Santo also out of the lineup, who also plays the role of gaining the blueline regularly), Kassian is one of the better puck moving forwards on the roster.

People make way too much of a couple giveaways though imo. The first was a product of a solid backcheck but a bad decision/judgement of where Hamhuis was trailing him on the play. That I can live with as part and parcel of the fact that he did some excellent backchecking last night, and made a few notable plays in his own end against the rush, particularly blocking a dangerous chance in the slot.

The giveaway at the end of the game - there were quite a few players relatively flat footed at the blueline and Kassian made a snap decision to try to blow by them. It happens to everyone - I've seen Kesler and Hank make similar giveaways on many occasions - with Kassian it's under a spotlight and second guessed because he's generally not given the liscence to take such risks, but again, that's something I can live with under the circumstances. It was an instantaneous decision - and I think he is generally a very good decision maker - I'd much prefer the team allow him to be aggressive and make the odd mistake - and live with it - as opposed to having him second guess himself constantly. Imo he's a notably better player when he's aggressive and confident as opposed to anxious or hesitant/too cautious about making mistakes.

If I were to draw an analogy, it would be the approach that Pete Carroll takes with his young talented Seahawks on both sides of the ball. They take risks, they take their share of penalties, they make mistakes - but all in all, Carroll accepts the whole - and the overall approach, of trusting the players and letting them make mistakes in favour of remaining aggressive - I think it's the type of vote of confidence and mental approach (let your mistakes roll off your back) that is exceptionally successful with young players.

[Bob Singh]

As Dragonfruits said missing the playoffs isn't a bad thing and having a higher (also potential chance at the lottery pick, albeit a low %) will help the team transition much like it did with San Jose.

I just don't see this team being good enough to knock of 2 of LA, ANA, SJ and either STL or CHI in a 7 game series.

They also need somewhat of a shake up and adding a 3rd line centre or adding a 4th line grinding winger just isn't the shake up thats needed the top 6 is in dire need of some offensive infusion and the D might need a shake up.

Luongo has been rock solid in net and a professional off the ice, however, If he is still wanting to play close with his family I think MG should look at seeing if Tallon is willing to talk trade (also new owner might be okay with the deal since a good chunk of it is already paid off and I believe there are 2 - 3 years left at 6.7) regarding a Lui deal.

On the D side I think 1 of Hamhuis, Garrison, Edler could be parlayed into something fairly significant its just the NTC hurdle, which I am hoping going forward unless its a franchise type player the NTC should be seldom used as it really backs the GM into a corner when it comes to making deals.

If the team had this year and next to use as a transition period where they move a couple of the old core out and attempt to bring in some young prospects from within the system or trade for some young prospects

why the **** would you want to trade Luongo? I thought that drama was finally over, but people will never be happy.

[TOMapleLaughs]

We need Richard Sherman

Or whatever he's jacked up on every game.

[Mispelled]

Now that the Sedins are playing a more traditional role, as in a complete game (blocking shots, giving and taking hits, PK time, etc), I wonder how their games played and production will differ from past stats. Their new NTCs and coach present a BOLD MOVE by MG, in one sense, I suppose, but I am not sure it is a good thing, just yet.

[icetime]

I seem to remeber Torts prediction at his first press conference. Goes something like -- We may not win many games but we are going to be tough to play against.

Well Torts got it right on the first part - way off the mark on the second part. Think the Oilers thought we were tough to play against last night How about the Ducks Kings Sharks etc etc.

Last night Mike Sullivan said team needed to play harder -- that was the solution. Wow. insightful, incisive and inspired.

The Canucks were built as a skilled puck possession team. (Which is still the most exciting hockey to watch and the most successful) If the owners are not going to staff the management and coaches to play this style there will be no hope of winning for the foreseeable future. No banners will be raised at Rogers Arena during the Torts era. Great disservice to to the Sedins ( hall of fame quality guys) who just signed long term deals, Terrible for Luongo. I am sure he was promised a much bettter situation by Mr Acquillini the day of the Schneider "trade" (if you can call it a trade without a lauighing).

This experiment has been a disaster. Can the Acquillinis actually allow Gilis to make trades at this point. I doubt he will be back next season. Hopefully new GM fires coaches and we write this debacle off as a desparate move to fix a problem that did not need fixing. Canucks had chance to be an organization that would rival the Wings. Too bad management opted for the Torts approach. it will be a long boring wait unless their is immeadiate recognition that this was a terrible move. Not too late -- still have the core players. Just dont have the staff or the system to excel.

In oher words don't we need to try "harder" -- banging thier heads againt the door. Use a little finesse -- turn the door knob. Don't need some guy hammering on an anvil for game time video -- or chasing the opposing coach into the locker room for period break entertainment..

It is true -- things are not adding up.

[nuck1031]

I found these canucks commercials funny..especially the ones with captions like "we are committed" and "we are driven". Especially when they avoid going into the dirty areas like they are minefields. This is the oilers, not bruins for christ sake!...the team that has the sh*ttiest defence of the NHL and only 2 goals scored....

Committed? maybe to earning those phat paychecks, yeah that I agree

driven? Sure! driven from the dirty areas by bunch of pus*ies

I don't even know how much the sisters would fetch now let alone other less valuable players like Edler. And who was that fool who said the sisters are going to be on pace for 80 points per? I hope you are choking right now like some phat ho chocking on a you know what

[Blackberries]

I seem to remeber Torts prediction at his first press conference. Goes something like -- We may not win many games but we are going to be tough to play against.

Well Torts got it right on the first part - way off the mark on the second part. Think the Oilers thought we were tough to play against last night How about the Ducks Kings Sharks etc etc.

Last night Mike Sullivan said team needed to play harder -- that was the solution. Wow. insightful, incisive and inspired.

The Canucks were built as a skilled puck possession team. (Which is still the most exciting hockey to watch and the most successful) If the owners are not going to staff the management and coaches to play this style there will be no hope of winning for the foreseeable future. No banners will be raised at Rogers Arena during the Torts era. Great disservice to to the Sedins ( hall of fame quality guys) who just signed long term deals, Terrible for Luongo. I am sure he was promised a much bettter situation by Mr Acquillini the day of the Schneider "trade" (if you can call it a trade without a lauighing).

This experiment has been a disaster. Can the Acquillinis actually allow Gilis to make trades at this point. I doubt he will be back next season. Hopefully new GM fires coaches and we write this debacle off as a desparate move to fix a problem that did not need fixing. Canucks had chance to be an organization that would rival the Wings. Too bad management opted for the Torts approach. it will be a long boring wait unless their is immeadiate recognition that this was a terrible move. Not too late -- still have the core players. Just dont have the staff or the system to excel.

In oher words don't we need to try "harder" -- banging thier heads againt the door. Use a little finesse -- turn the door knob. Don't need some guy hammering on an anvil for game time video -- or chasing the opposing coach into the locker room for period break entertainment..

It is true -- things are not adding up.

So whats your explanation for their lazy uninspired play under AV the past two years?

Or the PP?

Guess thats Torts fault too.

This team and A bad apple share a common characteristic.

[M A K A V E L I 96]

We need Richard Sherman

They could use his slapshot on the PP. More accurate than Garrison.

[cabinessence]

Bure went from a 23 goal season (missed 19 games, on pace for 30 goals) and bounced back with a 51 goal season in 97-98.

Now, Bure was always the exception and not the rule and I don't believe this is any significant reason why the Sedins will do the same. In fact, their career trajectory matches more the Markus Naslund model, almost exactly. But you were looking for one example.

Great example. Thank you for that. You are right on both accounts. I should have made it more clear in that I was thinking of players who slumped past the age of 30 on the Canucks (forwards) and regained their scoring prowess. Bure was 27 when he rebounded with 51 goals. The Sedins and Naslund are quite different than a superstar like Sakic,Crosby,, etc. who were great from the get go. Naslund and the Sedins had a slow but sure steady improvement to become top line players. Then they hit the peak and went on the decline. The question is if the decline will happen more quickly than the rise. It appears so.

[Tappa]

Great example. Thank you for that. You are right on both accounts. I should have made it more clear in that I was thinking of players who slumped past the age of 30 on the Canucks (forwards) and regained their scoring prowess. Bure was 27 when he rebounded with 51 goals. The Sedins and Naslund are quite different than a superstar like Sakic,Crosby,, etc. who were great from the get go. Naslund and the Sedins had a slow but sure steady improvement to become top line players. Then they hit the peak and went on the decline. The question is if the decline will happen more quickly than the rise. It appears so.

Another concern if the Sedins are declining is if Daniel is declining at a faster rate, as it appears. It is a concern because they both elevate each other's play and the sum has always been much greater than the parts. If Daniel is on a sharper decline then he will drag down Hank with him and before long they'll be 2nd line players and it won't matter any longer who the 3rd member of the line is.

[apollo]

So whats your explanation for their lazy uninspired play under AV the past two years?

Or the PP?

Guess thats Torts fault too.

This team and A bad apple share a common characteristic.

I'm willing to bet that this team under torts and company so far has blown more 3rd period leads than AV did in his last 3 years COMBINED.

No idea where I can find the stats for teams record leading after 3 but my point is they don't know how to hold a lead.

[Canuck Surfer]

I also think there was a situational element to Kassian attempting to provide a puck moving element.

The Canucks were struggling to gain entrance last night. Where Hank's notable adeptness in this respect was absent, we saw a number of rushes where Kesler was attempting to carry the puck and gain the zone with speed. The team as a whole was out of sorts at the Oilers blueline on a lot of occasions last night - offsides, a lack of puck support, and generally uncoordinated efforts - and as Valk pointed out, a reluctance to dump and chase for some reason and make the Oilers not terribly intimidating blueline turn their backs.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Kassian with his combination of speed and very good hands was identified as a guy who could step up and provide a puck moving element in Henrik's absence. Aside from Schroeder (and with Santo also out of the lineup, who also plays the role of gaining the blueline regularly), Kassian is one of the better puck moving forwards on the roster.

People make way too much of a couple giveaways though imo. The first was a product of a solid backcheck but a bad decision/judgement of where Hamhuis was trailing him on the play. That I can live with as part and parcel of the fact that he did some excellent backchecking last night, and made a few notable plays in his own end against the rush, particularly blocking a dangerous chance in the slot.

The giveaway at the end of the game - there were quite a few players relatively flat footed at the blueline and Kassian made a snap decision to try to blow by them. It happens to everyone - I've seen Kesler and Hank make similar giveaways on many occasions - with Kassian it's under a spotlight and second guessed because he's generally not given the liscence to take such risks, but again, that's something I can live with under the circumstances. It was an instantaneous decision - and I think he is generally a very good decision maker - I'd much prefer the team allow him to be aggressive and make the odd mistake - and live with it - as opposed to having him second guess himself constantly. Imo he's a notably better player when he's aggressive and confident as opposed to anxious or hesitant/too cautious about making mistakes.

If I were to draw an analogy, it would be the approach that Pete Carroll takes with his young talented Seahawks on both sides of the ball. They take risks, they take their share of penalties, they make mistakes - but all in all, Carroll accepts the whole - and the overall approach, of trusting the players and letting them make mistakes in favour of remaining aggressive - I think it's the type of vote of confidence and mental approach (let your mistakes roll off your back) that is exceptionally successful with young players.

I am grateful to see Kassian doing some of the puck moving at this point, mistakes not withstanding.

I mean who else are we going to have do it, Booth?

But looking at it seriously, who else? Danny is pretty good. Higgins is a good option for a high outlet, but less talented with the puck making the play itself. He's chip and chase stuff. Kesler doesn't quite have it. Not quite, so he ends up pushing too far on his own and taking low % shots. You mentioned that Santo is is good, this is where he has helped our team the most this year IMO, but not available. Burrows is the other good option up front, we need to get his confidence up.

Fact is, even with Hank here, the rest of our lines have for a long time had trouble moving forward and gaining zone access. Our 2knd line backwards has been chip and chase for some significant time. Hence the importance of a hard fore-check and puck pursuit. Its a bit misguided, this notion that we have been (across four lines anyway) a puck possession team. With Torts anyway, until recently our identity really has more been how hard on the puck we are?

Last night that identity is what we lost! Short term we just have to get back at it harder!

And, as you know me, I am going to recommend the real solution. Its great to see Kass learning to help move the puck. But the heart of our issue is better puck movement across all four lines, and getting it out of our zone. In 82 games there are going to be days we can't put ourselves constantly in the position of having to win the puck. And teams are too good late in the playoffs to beat on sheer effort. A talented player that can control the puck without chasing it will be easier on everyone. Thats a defender with superior puck movement skills, which contributes to all 4 lines. Both gaining the zone and creating rotations offensively. And fix our moribund power play! Everyone should be ready to embrace that our defence needs to add a puck mover at this stage?

[oldnews]

I am grateful to see Kassian doing some of the puck moving at this point, mistakes not withstanding.

I mean who else are we going to have do it, Booth?

But looking at it seriously, who else? Danny is pretty good. Higgins is a good option for a high outlet, but less talented with the puck making the play itself. He's chip and chase stuff. Kesler doesn't quite have it. Not quite, so he ends up pushing too far on his own and taking low % shots. You mentioned that Santo is is good, this is where he has helped our team the most this year IMO, but not available. Burrows is the other good option up front, we need to get his confidence up.

Fact is, even with Hank here, the rest of our lines have for a long time had trouble moving forward and gaining zone access. Our 2knd line backwards has been chip and chase for some significant time. Hence the importance of a hard fore-check and puck pursuit. Its a bit misguided, this notion that we have been (across four lines anyway) a puck possession team. With Torts anyway, until recently our identity really has more been how hard on the puck we are?

Last night that identity is what we lost! Short term we just have to get back at it harder!

And, as you know me, I am going to recommend the real solution. Its great to see Kass learning to help move the puck. But the heart of our issue is better puck movement across all four lines, and getting it out of our zone. In 82 games there are going to be days we can't put ourselves constantly in the position of having to win the puck. And teams are too good late in the playoffs to beat on sheer effort. A talented player that can control the puck without chasing it will be easier on everyone. Thats a defender with superior puck movement skills, which contributes to all 4 lines. Both gaining the zone and creating rotations offensively. And fix our moribund power play! Everyone should be ready to embrace that our defence needs to add a puck mover at this stage?

Henrik, Santo, Schroeder (Kesler, Kassian...)

Puck moving forwards are necessary. If you depend on your blueline to gain entry, you still need your forwards to fill, and they're rarely as effective (not many can skate backwards and defend anywhere near as effectively as an actual blueliner, while the gap between puck moving forwards and defensemen)... Having an effective pmd can be a nice luxury, but still only 1/6 of your blueline and in the end, you need your forwards to be able to gain entries - and the counterpoint to a pmd is that you need two way forwards to prevent them from being a liability ("pmd" tend to be the most prolific giveaway leaders in the NHL), so whether you like it or not, you can't get away from needing two way defensemen and forwards (and the idea that a team can have 'too many' is nonsense).

Really, the team just didn't seem to be thinking the game very well last night, and weren't really mixing up their entries well enough, or executing them as a unit.

But in terms of pmd, the more Tanev develops, the more the quality of his skating and decision making is evident - when he does decide to rush the puck, he's got some solid skills and distributes the puck well (and his shot is improving as well). I think Corrado likewise has a world of potential in this sense (despite being seen as primarily a shutdown defender) - his skating is exceptional, he is very level headed and makes great decisions - he has the potential, like Tanev to blossom that upside in his game. I think the team and fans will need to have some patience - there are also Tommernes and Subban in the system - otherwise the market for pmd might just be the worst (niche) in the NHL. I know you have this on your shopping list, but a shopping list is one thing (and there are plenty of "pmd" I sure as hell would not want on this blueline), whereas a realistic potential deal is another. Any ideas?

[MJDDawg]

Danny & Hank having a mediocre year doesn't automatically mean they are on a decline. People have had bad years and bounce back years before. With the new system, somewhat enigmatic team and overall effort, it's no surprise that many of our guys are struggling. Not to mention key injuries with Burrows, Henrik, Edler, Schroeder and even Booth (just as he was supposed to get a clean slate and fresh start). Luckily we got good goaltending from Lack when Lui was gone.

That's true.

But the last 3 seasons do.

[elvis15]

I'm willing to bet that this team under torts and company so far has blown more 3rd period leads than AV did in his last 3 years COMBINED.

No idea where I can find the stats for teams record leading after 3 but my point is they don't know how to hold a lead.

Well, leading after 3 would mean they won the game, but NHL.com has the stats for leading after 2 periods:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLSAAAll&sort=winPctAfterLead1P&viewName=recordWhenLeading

Here's our record for the past 4 years:

2013/14: 17-3-2 (.773 winning %)

2012/13: 18-2-3 (.783 winning %)

2011/12: 32-1-2 (.914 winning %)

2010/11: 38-0-3 (.927 winning %)

So while we've certainly been better, last year was pretty comparable and we've had as many let downs in the two years previous to that (but a much better winning %). Part of that may be AV, or it may be the players were performing better - which they certainly were.