(Rumour) torts almost removed updated botch

[hockeywoot]

I think that's one of the areas where, while the coaching staff might not be THE problem, they certainly have been PART of the problem.

My biggest worry with this coaching staff was regarding how the PP and the offense would be coached and who would handle these responsibilities. It seemed, at the beginning of the year, that Gulutzan would be shouldering a large portion of this burden.

And I felt like it would be important for Gulutzan to play a key role because Torts and Sully are basically two sides of the same coin and they don't have much of a record of PP success or being all that creative in designing offensive schemes and playbooks.

I had no problem with the change in direction toward being a "stiffer" team, using a hard forecheck, blocking shots, etc. But I really wondered how they were going to approach the offense and the power play. To me, it seemed like Torts and company were just kind of hoping that offense would happen on its own, so long as the team was working hard and playing "the right way" at both ends of the ice.

I hoped that Gulutzan was also cooking something up and would be bringing some creativity and direction to the offense.

What I saw instead was Gulutzan appearing to defer completely to the two-headed Torts/Sully monster. During the first half of the season, I don't think I saw Glen do much of anything behind the bench. He wasn't talking to the players, he wasn't drawing stuff up on the board, and he never seemed to be the guy in the huddle drawing up plays.

I was shocked that more often than not, when the Canucks had an important PP, it was Sully with the board and a circle of players around him. Torts was always busy, barking to the troops and talking in guys' ears, and Gulutzan just seemed to stand there, silently taking it all in.

Lately, it seems that Glen is taking a more active role at the bench but I'm baffled why we had to wait this long before he started actually coaching during game situations.

I haven't seen much practice time this year so I'm not sure how much Gulutzan gets involved. Another part of Torts' philosophy has been to practice less and to devote very little time to the offense and the power play (until recently). Hopefully, Gulutzan was at least active when he was given some time to work with the players.

But with this staff, it has really seemed like they've taken a "hands off" approach with the offense, which is baffling considering this team's struggle to score goals.

I certainly have a hard time understanding some of the looks we've seen on the PP and during 5v5 offensive zone time. The most glaring example was the decision to play Garrison at the right point with Edler on his left, the Sedins working down low at the right corner, and Kesler at the left halfboards.

The coaches need only watch

to see why this formation made zero sense. Garrison has himself said (and any study of the video evidence clearly shows) that he needs to receive cross ice passes from left to right for him to unload from the right point with any real rate of success. Having the teams two best passers working the right corner basically took away the Garrison's big shot. If the twins tried to find Garrison, it would be a pass up the right boards, with Garrison having to take it on his backhand at the point.

It also didn't help that Garrison would, especially on the PP, often be paired with Edler at the point. Basically, you had two guys who play best when the have a partner to set them up. The result was two stationary points passing back and forth and rarely getting a good shot off. Neither D was comfortable making forays that would penetrate deeper into the zone and create options for a diagonal feed back to the other point.

Part of this falls on Gillis, who has never addressed this team's need for a dynamic, puck rushing D who can play a roving game in the offensive zone and work an L-shaped area (from the halfboards up to the point and then across to the other point) in the offensive zone and on the PP. Both Edler and Garrison need to have a mobile partner on their right side. Someone who takes the puck from the right point and penetrates diagonally toward the left circle, allowing the LHD to slide right, and creating an option to either pass deeper to the forwards or go back with a perfect setup pass to the right point for the LHD to hammer a one-timer from his off side. It's a basic strategy that works wonders when you have the right personnel and you design some good set plays..

The Canucks have, in Edler and Garrison, two great options for the secondary, shooting position at the point. They lack someone who can play the primary, passing/playmaking position on the other point. A mobile puck-carrying D who can PPQB, rush the puck, and rove around the offensive zone, forcing the defenders to scramble and thereby making space for his other four teammates.

But even without a good rushing D (of the Campbell type), the Canucks staff should have realized that they were wasting their weapons by placing their cannon at the right point on an offensive unit that always forces the puck down to the right corner. It would have been OK if they had involved Kesler and had the twins work the puck around to the left side and then have Kesler look to either feed back diagonally to the right point (left to right) or go cross crease back to the twins (that's assuming Danny would take a shot if he received the pass).

Instead, they had Kesler taking up a far too stationary position and basically getting shut out of the play (there were lots of shifts where he never got near the puck). The twins pass back and forth and then they go up the right boards to the point. The Ds pass back and forth, but neither one makes a crisp pass (this falls on the players and the coaches--the players need to make better passes and they've been terrible this year but the coaches need to see this problem and put in time--even some basic drills--sharpening the passing skills on this team). With poor D-to-D passing, neither one gets a good shot off, and with two Ds that prefer to defer puckhandling to their teammates, neither one penetrates the zone to create better passing angles for their partner's point shot.

Painful to watch. And watch we did. Over and over and over. With the PP%, shooting percentages, and goals/points totals sliding lower and lower from where they should be on a team with what are still some very talented players (and that's even allowing for some regression--due to this core aging and the team getting weaker while their competition was getting stronger).

Again, the coaches haven't been THE problem but they have certainly been PART of the problem.

And something needs to change. Either they need to re-think the systems or they need to change the staff.

This.

Prior to our epic collapse of 2014, I didn't mind the way we were playing. Solid defensively. Not bad (but not elite) offensively at ES. Main concern all year has been PP though. Its been consistently terrible all year. Disproportionately bad to how we were in the standings. Now this has come to equilibrium.

Aiye, Torts (and Sully) seem like Aquaman's intervention. Gully seems more of a Gillis guy.

Wouldn't be surprised if they replace Torts with him.

[MJDDawg]

YES.

The Canucks have the money.

The Canucks have a youth friendly coach.

The Canucks could do wonders with a Sedins trade. However, Gillis could really screw up the entire franchise with this one.

How in anyone's right mind does trading two elite goaltenders in Luongo and Schneider, and a top young center in Hodgson while acquiring a bunch of T4Ds but no true 1D any way to build a team is beyond me.

This mess is certainly not Tortorella's fault.

Then compare this to Jim Nill, who wasn't on the job more than two months when he traded Eriksson, Morrow, Smith and Fraser for Seguin, Peverley and Button.

Again, he traded one of his top players and a solid prospect for a number 1 centre.

We've traded TWO number one goalies and a top 6 centre prospect for a top 10 draft pick who could become a top 6 centre (maybe), a POTENTIAL top 6 winger, a journeyman 3rd line centerman, and a young backup goalie who couldn't crack the Panthers lineup.

I DO NOT wan't MG here making any deals at the draft for fear that he'll set this organization back another ten years.

[RUPERTKBD]

Blow it all up this summer and give Torts a team he can work with instead of a bunch of aging veterans that are still shell shocked from losing the cup to Boston 3 years ago. The decline is NOT Torts fault. It started the very next season after the cup loss and has been getting worse ever since. It wasn't Torts that was coaching this team for the two years after the cup loss. It was AV, and AV was coaching pretty much the same team that came to one game of winning it all, yet couldn't win a playoff game to save their life in 2012 and 2013. Torts may be the vehicle that has finally exposed this team for what it is, but this disaster was not of his making.

Hope he gets another chance next season. Hope management and or the owners has the balls to give him a decent YOUNG team to work with as well.

Against the Kings, AV went into that series minus his top scorer. Not surprisingly, the games were close, but Vancouver couldn't score enough to win.

Against the Sharks, the Canucks had to battle through the biggest penalty differential in NHL playoff history.

But at least they got to the dance. This season has been far worse than either of the last two.

That is not to say that I disagree with AV being let go, his time was done here and the team needed a change at the helm, but to suggest that this season is no worse than the past two, is ridiculous.

Although I'm not an advocate for firing Tortorella this soon into his tenure, he certainly deserves his share of the blame for this season's woes.

[avelanch]

i don't see torts coming back next season

[hockeywoot]

Then compare this to Jim Nill, who wasn't on the job more than two months when he traded Eriksson, Morrow, Smith and Fraser for Seguin, Peverley and Button.

Again, he traded one of his top players and a solid prospect for a number 1 centre.

We've traded TWO number one goalies and a top 6 centre prospect for a top 10 draft pick who could become a top 6 centre (maybe), a POTENTIAL top 6 winger, a journeyman 3rd line centerman, and a young backup goalie who couldn't crack the Panthers lineup.

I DO NOT wan't MG here making any deals at the draft for fear that he'll set this organization back another ten years.

Number one goalies don't hold THAT much trade value tbh. Especially those that....

a) Have not had more than a full season handling the starter's share of games

A declining vet nearly on the wrong side of 30, with a long-term cap hit that is now punishable following the new CBA

[Cold Hard Truth]

If Torts gets fired and Aqualini keeps GIllis and Gillis comes back with the same roster next year i am finished with this club.

This club should have been re-tooled 3 years ago.

Now were watching the same pack of losers that got AV fired about to get the new coach fired.

Gillis idea of a retool is hiring a new coach and trading Raffi Diaz for a 5th.

[wai_lai416]

This.

Prior to our epic collapse of 2014, I didn't mind the way we were playing. Solid defensively. Not bad (but not elite) offensively at ES. Main concern all year has been PP though. Its been consistently terrible all year. Disproportionately bad to how we were in the standings. Now this has come to equilibrium.

Aiye, Torts (and Sully) seem like Aquaman's intervention. Gully seems more of a Gillis guy.

Wouldn't be surprised if they replace Torts with him.

replace with the guy that runs our powerplay? i predict avg less than 1 goal for per game

[Totes McGoats]

Torts should be fired along with Gillis. Give Sullivan the ship until we hire some actual hockey people in the office season. It's a joke that we're still sailing with these two idiots at the helm.

[GB5]

Whatever happens with Torts shouldn't be decided until there is a new GM in place. Yes, I am saying that Gillis' time is over.

If the new guy chooses to stick with Torts or bring in his own guy, that's up to him but the ownership shouldn't allow the coach to be fired at this point.

[PhillipBlunt]

Just replaced Manny.

Needs to get a top 6 forward to play with Kes (or replace ) this summer and let's some prospects fill holes. A good PMD would be a nicety but our D is pretty set (and not really an issue).

The defence is set? Really? They are constantly getting outworked and outplayed. This defensive core is the textbook definition of lacklustre.

Edler is the same inconsistent mess he has been the last two years. His poor play in his own end has been a huge part of the undoings in the last few weeks.

Garrison is even worse, lacking Edler's physical upside and ability to get a puck on the actual net with any consistency.

Hamhuis and Bieksa are both prone to boneheaded moves but make up for it with leadership and overall consistency in their game. Hamhuis is an unbelievably smart player and Bieksa is tough as nails.

Tanev and Stanton are great but still a step or two behind. Maybe next year.

This defence is far too porous to endure even one playoff round. They lack the size and strength to handle the forecheck from any decently sized club, and are far too often found coughing up the puck in their end, which when you have two rookie goalies is never a good plan.

Edler refusing to waive his clause is a huge nail in the coffin of the defence.

The defence is not set. At all

[Biasbieksa]

Lp

[oldnews]

YES.

The Canucks have the money.

The Canucks have a youth friendly coach.

The Canucks could do wonders with a Sedins trade. However, Gillis could really screw up the entire franchise with this one.

How in anyone's right mind does trading two elite goaltenders in Luongo and Schneider, and a top young center in Hodgson while acquiring a bunch of T4Ds but no true 1D any way to build a team is beyond me.

This mess is certainly not Tortorella's fault.

Priceless.

This coming from the CDC champion of moronic trade proposals - well, maybe a cool 2nd to merci.

Care to grace us with another one of your strokes of genius?

[VanCityCanuck14]

Keep trying.

check no trade clauses buddy. we have way more than other teams. we have 9 compared to LA at 1, Rangers 4 -two teams eh? I'm glad you provided an exhaustive list Colorado (2), Blues would have (4) if it was not for Ott and Miller (acquired via trade), Islanders (2) and one is JT, Oilers (2), Panthers (4) and one is Luongo!

- you got me on Erhoff. My mistake. -it was a pretty obvious one - yeah forgot, got me once congrats

- yes low cost for Booth, but bad pick up anyway. I will forgive Gillis on this since Kesler apparently was behind bringing in Booth. I also feel he is never utilized properly by coaches -there's no one to blame but Booth himself, he's trying to do the right things but has had injury issues partly on him and he just hasn't had the finish despite plenty of chances - hindsight's 20/20 but it was a good trade- he was a 30 goal scorer and we turned him into garbage. and we gave up "a top 6 guy" Samulsson as you say below...

- i am complaining he took over 3 years to get a top 6. Its hard, sure. Should not take this long. Other teams add them, why can't he? -very first year he was here he added Demitra and Sundin, Bernier and Wellwood were moneyball pickups, the second year he added Samuelsson, the third our top 6 was established enough to make spending significantly not worth the upgrade so he added to our bottom 6 in Malhotra, Higgins, Torres and Lapierre, Hodgson was coming into the fold as well - see a trend? but feel free to share the better top 6 players you would have traded for and what it would have cost us- demitra came here for Sundin. Sundin at 38! got offered 20 million for 2 years. and did not sign until Christmas and played in January... Bernier! need i remind you Gillis passed on signing Backes for him. Backes! Exactly what this team needs. Samuelsson was good (though I said he did good signings...) Manny was a bust (love him, but sorry he was), Higgins is good (I acknowledged that myself), Torres walked after one season and many fans were furious he would not hand him a small raise... especially after a strong cup run. Let Lappy walk to and replaced him with a more expensive and less effective Ricardson. My point to you here was who has he acquired that is a top 6 guy in the last 3 years? - nobody while other teams; Sharks, Kings, Ducks, Penguins, Blackhawks, Bruins and Blues all got better. We didn't. That is his fault for not realizing a need. I am not saying he has an easy job, I am advocating that he is not realizing nor helping our weakness.

- Luongo situation is way more than the heritage classic. You try being a professional and being told for almost 2 years and neing told you will be traded.Then to ride backup. Heritage classic was a huge insult but more on Torts. -easier said than done to trade a goalie with a long term contract that had recently been used as the poster child for cap recapture, all at the same time as the cap being reduced significantly - the rumours of Luongo blocking at least one trade that wasn't with Florida early on sheds a different light on the situation as well ​- again you don't argue what I said. The "situation" was embarrassing. No canuck fan would rationalize this and justify it. Bad contract right? who signed him? Exactly.

- Prospects - better now but we got Horvat for overpayment. You seem to know this and blame the situation (understandable). Shinkaruk was a fluke since Calgary is stupid. Gaunce is pretty good. Cassels and Jensen are fine. Our prospects look better but you can't deny this 50 games drafting. Raymond went in 05 I believe so that means nobody played 50 games in a Canucks uniform since Gillis era in 2007. Hodgson is a stretch considering he got dealt. I can count Kassian? How are teams like Hawks, Pens and Bruins (Red Wings to!) able to use draft picks well? -the situation was a major factor, and if there'd been a better offer before or even at that time then I could find fault with Gillis but there wasn't, as for the prospects Hodgson isn't a stretch, he's a fact, the Hawks were terrible for years which got them their stars, same with the Pens, and the Bruins were gifted excellent picks by Toronto in the Kessel trade, the Red Wings are the model for most teams but they have a long term development plan for all their prospects who cares about his situation? (Hodgson) he was signed for another year. trade him then? More value. Trade him for more? Could have. Pens sucked for a little bit and got lucky with the lockout and Crosby. Hawks sucked for a while, but won 2 cups in 4 years. Bruins have been good for a long time. Gifted picks? Correct. But Kessel > Seguin. Hamilton and Seguin > Kessel. Plus they dealt Seguin.

Gillis has done far more harm than good. Especially lately by watching the team tank. How anyone honestly rationalizes his ability as GM is beyond me. In addition he trades both goalies and goes for the cup....? In addition he leaves Lack in net... Do you realize how difficult this is for him? Battling an all season injury last year, coming back and randomly being starter? He is a rookie. Killed his confidence.

Deserves to be canned. I hate seeing people being fired but this is so deserved.

[VegasCanuck]

So, what does everyone think? Is Torts still here today only because GMMG is at the GM's retreat right now?

[Ding-Dong]

check no trade clauses buddy. we have way more than other teams. we have 9 compared to LA at 1, Rangers 4 -two teams eh? I'm glad you provided an exhaustive list Colorado (2), Blues would have (4) if it was not for Ott and Miller (acquired via trade), Islanders (2) and one is JT, Oilers (2), Panthers (4) and one is Luongo!

- you got me on Erhoff. My mistake. -it was a pretty obvious one - yeah forgot, got me once congrats

- yes low cost for Booth, but bad pick up anyway. I will forgive Gillis on this since Kesler apparently was behind bringing in Booth. I also feel he is never utilized properly by coaches -there's no one to blame but Booth himself, he's trying to do the right things but has had injury issues partly on him and he just hasn't had the finish despite plenty of chances - hindsight's 20/20 but it was a good trade- he was a 30 goal scorer and we turned him into garbage. and we gave up "a top 6 guy" Samulsson as you say below...

- i am complaining he took over 3 years to get a top 6. Its hard, sure. Should not take this long. Other teams add them, why can't he? -very first year he was here he added Demitra and Sundin, Bernier and Wellwood were moneyball pickups, the second year he added Samuelsson, the third our top 6 was established enough to make spending significantly not worth the upgrade so he added to our bottom 6 in Malhotra, Higgins, Torres and Lapierre, Hodgson was coming into the fold as well - see a trend? but feel free to share the better top 6 players you would have traded for and what it would have cost us- demitra came here for Sundin. Sundin at 38! got offered 20 million for 2 years. and did not sign until Christmas and played in January... Bernier! need i remind you Gillis passed on signing Backes for him. Backes! Exactly what this team needs. Samuelsson was good (though I said he did good signings...) Manny was a bust (love him, but sorry he was), Higgins is good (I acknowledged that myself), Torres walked after one season and many fans were furious he would not hand him a small raise... especially after a strong cup run. Let Lappy walk to and replaced him with a more expensive and less effective Ricardson. My point to you here was who has he acquired that is a top 6 guy in the last 3 years? - nobody while other teams; Sharks, Kings, Ducks, Penguins, Blackhawks, Bruins and Blues all got better. We didn't. That is his fault for not realizing a need. I am not saying he has an easy job, I am advocating that he is not realizing nor helping our weakness.

- Luongo situation is way more than the heritage classic. You try being a professional and being told for almost 2 years and neing told you will be traded.Then to ride backup. Heritage classic was a huge insult but more on Torts. -easier said than done to trade a goalie with a long term contract that had recently been used as the poster child for cap recapture, all at the same time as the cap being reduced significantly - the rumours of Luongo blocking at least one trade that wasn't with Florida early on sheds a different light on the situation as well ​- again you don't argue what I said. The "situation" was embarrassing. No canuck fan would rationalize this and justify it. Bad contract right? who signed him? Exactly.

- Prospects - better now but we got Horvat for overpayment. You seem to know this and blame the situation (understandable). Shinkaruk was a fluke since Calgary is stupid. Gaunce is pretty good. Cassels and Jensen are fine. Our prospects look better but you can't deny this 50 games drafting. Raymond went in 05 I believe so that means nobody played 50 games in a Canucks uniform since Gillis era in 2007. Hodgson is a stretch considering he got dealt. I can count Kassian? How are teams like Hawks, Pens and Bruins (Red Wings to!) able to use draft picks well? -the situation was a major factor, and if there'd been a better offer before or even at that time then I could find fault with Gillis but there wasn't, as for the prospects Hodgson isn't a stretch, he's a fact, the Hawks were terrible for years which got them their stars, same with the Pens, and the Bruins were gifted excellent picks by Toronto in the Kessel trade, the Red Wings are the model for most teams but they have a long term development plan for all their prospects who cares about his situation? (Hodgson) he was signed for another year. trade him then? More value. Trade him for more? Could have. Pens sucked for a little bit and got lucky with the lockout and Crosby. Hawks sucked for a while, but won 2 cups in 4 years. Bruins have been good for a long time. Gifted picks? Correct. But Kessel > Seguin. Hamilton and Seguin > Kessel. Plus they dealt Seguin.

Gillis has done far more harm than good. Especially lately by watching the team tank. How anyone honestly rationalizes his ability as GM is beyond me. In addition he trades both goalies and goes for the cup....? In addition he leaves Lack in net... Do you realize how difficult this is for him? Battling an all season injury last year, coming back and randomly being starter? He is a rookie. Killed his confidence.

Deserves to be canned. I hate seeing people being fired but this is so deserved.

You cherry pick and omit lots of details in your post. Plus your opinion on a few things are debatable. Here are some of the few that come to mind right away.

You've picked teams that are filled with mostly ELCs and RFAs. There is no need for NTC or NMCs for those types of players because the team retains ownership of them until they hit UFA status. Why not list the teams that aren't filled with those types of players? I could do it for you.

Chicago Blackhawks - 9

Washington Capitols - 7

Pittsburgh Penguins - 10

SJS - 8

Boston Bruins - 11

Toronto Maple Leafs - 7

Detroid Red Wings - 11

Philadelphia Flyers - 8

TBL - 7

LA - 1 (Lombardi has done an amazing job in regards to this, no denying that)

Montreal Canadiens - 8

Minnesota Wild - 8

Doesn't seem so far off from the Canucks any more does it?

Also, Gillias didn't pass on Backes. He signed him to an offer sheet. The Blues matched. What would you like him to do after that? Beat Bettman over the head until he changes the rules so we can get Backes?

And while does currently Kessel > Seguin, it's not that close. Seguin is 22 and still has 66 points in 62 games. Hell, he got 32 in 48 on the third line with the Bruins. This is all while being 4 years younger.

[Fozzy]

So, what does everyone think? Is Torts still here today only because GMMG is at the GM's retreat right now?

Ask botch apparently he knows lol. He said to me on twitter management want him gone.. Um yeah botch then why the hell is torts still here if that was the case.

[J529]

Ask botch apparently he knows lol. He said to me on twitter management want him gone.. Um yeah botch then why the hell is torts still here if that was the case.

Ownership, not Gillis, wanted Torts and he has the ear of Acquillini's and hence why he's still here.

[oldnews]

Ownership, not Gillis, wanted Torts and he has the ear of Acquillini's and hence why he's still here.

That would be my guess as well, and would be a significant part of the reason I think Gillis should stay while Torts is probably the guy who should go first. It may in fact work the other way if that is true though - ownership may keep the coach they wanted and hang this on Gillis.

My problem with that, however, would be that the Tortorella experiment isn't quite working out on the positive side of things. Some folks may wish to blame the entire roster or the entire 'rotting' core, but imo that's a cop out.

I'm not necessary in the crowd that wants to see him fired quite yet, but I think it's a reality that he hasn't yet proven to be a very good fit overall. I'm not going to try to take away the way he had the team performing before New Years - there was some definite promise there, particularly considering all the injuries, but combine them with a gruelling schedule and his gameplanning wasn't sustainable.

But aside from that, my concerns are mostly tactical:

I'm not a fan of huge fan of the low zone collapse.

I like the aggressive 2-1-2 forecheck but the Canucks have seemed to depend far too much on the success of their forecheck to generate possession and scoring opportunities.

There might be a slight disconnect between transitioning from one to the other as well - I think that would have to be looked into more.

The schedule in an Olympic year - gruelling - was not something that could not have been foreseen. Overplaying the core was an approach that apparently backfired - and wasn't only questioned in hindsight - it was something that people expected Tortorella to adjust to. In fairness, the amount of injuries put him somewhat between a rock and a hard place - but at a certain level It does appear that he expected the team to adapt to his expectations - and that perhaps they weren't realistic - while on the other hand he probably didn't have the depth to depart from his style.

Torts was also famed early this season for his ability to make adjustments and respond to in game momentum changes. He's gone pretty flat in those respects, as has the fire and motivation.

I'm not sure why he insists on continuing to pair Edler and Bieksa together, but it has never really worked.

I also didn't like replacing Hamhuis as the primary shutdown defenseman with Edler. That has changed.

In last night's lineup for example, the Canucks bottom six consisted of Booth, Matthias and Sestito on the third line and Archie, Schroeder, Dalpe on the fourth. It's just seems to make more sense to move Schroeder or Dalpe up to the third and boost the skill and playmaking on that line, and move Sestito to the fourth on the opposing wing to Archie and let that line bang, forecheck...

The thing I've liked least is his apparent relationship with Hamhuis to start the season, his flogging of Hansen publicly, and then Edler. Those are the kinds of things I really wished he'd have left behind. When it comes to a choice between those players and the coach, I'm with the players, and am a bit dumbfounded as to the choices of Hamhuis and Hansen in particular. Edler has struggled, but also doesn't seem like the type of personality to thrive when being yelled at. I don't think many people are. I have to question the 'motivational' effect as well as that upon the confidence of these players. The team has never been so volatile - is that a reflection of the coach?

Some people may consider the fact he lost his temper and control of his behaviour in the Calgary game to be evidence that the experiment hasnt worked - that is not the primary of my concerns. If anything, other than that outburst, I think he's kept his composure for the most part, at least publicly, but nevertheless, there are enough points of doubt in my mind to wonder whether both the approach and the systems are a misfit.

[VanCityCanuck14]

You cherry pick and omit lots of details in your post. Plus your opinion on a few things are debatable. Here are some of the few that come to mind right away.

You've picked teams that are filled with mostly ELCs and RFAs. There is no need for NTC or NMCs for those types of players because the team retains ownership of them until they hit UFA status. Why not list the teams that aren't filled with those types of players? I could do it for you.

Chicago Blackhawks - 9

Washington Capitols - 7

Pittsburgh Penguins - 10

SJS - 8

Boston Bruins - 11

Toronto Maple Leafs - 7

Detroid Red Wings - 11

Philadelphia Flyers - 8

TBL - 7

LA - 1 (Lombardi has done an amazing job in regards to this, no denying that)

Montreal Canadiens - 8

Minnesota Wild - 8

Doesn't seem so far off from the Canucks any more does it?

Also, Gillias didn't pass on Backes. He signed him to an offer sheet. The Blues matched. What would you like him to do after that? Beat Bettman over the head until he changes the rules so we can get Backes?

And while does currently Kessel > Seguin, it's not that close. Seguin is 22 and still has 66 points in 62 games. Hell, he got 32 in 48 on the third line with the Bruins. This is all while being 4 years younger.

For the NTC a lot of those guys are veterans (35+) and have been with the franchise forever. Quite a bit are on short term deals as well. Kessel is better than Seguin... and he does it with an average center and 2nd line LW. You all realize he is top 3 in overall points since the deal went down? I am not denying Seguins ability, but Kessel is better. Would I deal both Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel? No. Because the difference is not that significant but there still is one.

Are you attempting to find issues in what I am saying or defending the bozo GM? Why so many defend Gillis is beyond me... you all should seriously go on the TSN boards and Twitter where they are calling for his head.

[elvis15]

check no trade clauses buddy. we have way more than other teams. we have 9 compared to LA at 1, Rangers 4 -two teams eh? I'm glad you provided an exhaustive list Colorado (2), Blues would have (4) if it was not for Ott and Miller (acquired via trade), Islanders (2) and one is JT, Oilers (2), Panthers (4) and one is Luongo!

- you got me on Erhoff. My mistake. -it was a pretty obvious one - yeah forgot, got me once congrats

- yes low cost for Booth, but bad pick up anyway. I will forgive Gillis on this since Kesler apparently was behind bringing in Booth. I also feel he is never utilized properly by coaches -there's no one to blame but Booth himself, he's trying to do the right things but has had injury issues partly on him and he just hasn't had the finish despite plenty of chances - hindsight's 20/20 but it was a good trade- he was a 30 goal scorer and we turned him into garbage. and we gave up "a top 6 guy" Samulsson as you say below...

- i am complaining he took over 3 years to get a top 6. Its hard, sure. Should not take this long. Other teams add them, why can't he? -very first year he was here he added Demitra and Sundin, Bernier and Wellwood were moneyball pickups, the second year he added Samuelsson, the third our top 6 was established enough to make spending significantly not worth the upgrade so he added to our bottom 6 in Malhotra, Higgins, Torres and Lapierre, Hodgson was coming into the fold as well - see a trend? but feel free to share the better top 6 players you would have traded for and what it would have cost us- demitra came here for Sundin. Sundin at 38! got offered 20 million for 2 years. and did not sign until Christmas and played in January... Bernier! need i remind you Gillis passed on signing Backes for him. Backes! Exactly what this team needs. Samuelsson was good (though I said he did good signings...) Manny was a bust (love him, but sorry he was), Higgins is good (I acknowledged that myself), Torres walked after one season and many fans were furious he would not hand him a small raise... especially after a strong cup run. Let Lappy walk to and replaced him with a more expensive and less effective Ricardson. My point to you here was who has he acquired that is a top 6 guy in the last 3 years? - nobody while other teams; Sharks, Kings, Ducks, Penguins, Blackhawks, Bruins and Blues all got better. We didn't. That is his fault for not realizing a need. I am not saying he has an easy job, I am advocating that he is not realizing nor helping our weakness.

- Luongo situation is way more than the heritage classic. You try being a professional and being told for almost 2 years and neing told you will be traded.Then to ride backup. Heritage classic was a huge insult but more on Torts. -easier said than done to trade a goalie with a long term contract that had recently been used as the poster child for cap recapture, all at the same time as the cap being reduced significantly - the rumours of Luongo blocking at least one trade that wasn't with Florida early on sheds a different light on the situation as well ​- again you don't argue what I said. The "situation" was embarrassing. No canuck fan would rationalize this and justify it. Bad contract right? who signed him? Exactly.

- Prospects - better now but we got Horvat for overpayment. You seem to know this and blame the situation (understandable). Shinkaruk was a fluke since Calgary is stupid. Gaunce is pretty good. Cassels and Jensen are fine. Our prospects look better but you can't deny this 50 games drafting. Raymond went in 05 I believe so that means nobody played 50 games in a Canucks uniform since Gillis era in 2007. Hodgson is a stretch considering he got dealt. I can count Kassian? How are teams like Hawks, Pens and Bruins (Red Wings to!) able to use draft picks well? -the situation was a major factor, and if there'd been a better offer before or even at that time then I could find fault with Gillis but there wasn't, as for the prospects Hodgson isn't a stretch, he's a fact, the Hawks were terrible for years which got them their stars, same with the Pens, and the Bruins were gifted excellent picks by Toronto in the Kessel trade, the Red Wings are the model for most teams but they have a long term development plan for all their prospects who cares about his situation? (Hodgson) he was signed for another year. trade him then? More value. Trade him for more? Could have. Pens sucked for a little bit and got lucky with the lockout and Crosby. Hawks sucked for a while, but won 2 cups in 4 years. Bruins have been good for a long time. Gifted picks? Correct. But Kessel > Seguin. Hamilton and Seguin > Kessel. Plus they dealt Seguin.

Gillis has done far more harm than good. Especially lately by watching the team tank. How anyone honestly rationalizes his ability as GM is beyond me. In addition he trades both goalies and goes for the cup....? In addition he leaves Lack in net... Do you realize how difficult this is for him? Battling an all season injury last year, coming back and randomly being starter? He is a rookie. Killed his confidence.

Deserves to be canned. I hate seeing people being fired but this is so deserved.

I applaud you for still trying, but you haven't convinced me of anything.

• Try looking at contenders versus bottom feeders. For instance, you list the Blues but then try and say, "well, if they didn't have those two new contracts..."
  
• Yes I did. Thank you.
  
• 'We' did nothing. He got injured and never found his form again. All we did was play him in the top 6 and give him every opportunity available. And we gave up a former top 6 guy who was ageing and declining with injuries for him, yes.
  
• Demitra signed before Sundin (or did Demitra start playing in February?). Sundin started late but was a PPG player in the playoffs. Gillis didn't pass up on Backes, he offer sheeted Backes and the Blues in turn offer sheeted Bernier as payback. Malhotra was most definitely not a bust (WTF!?). Torres wanted term, not a raise and chose to move rather than stay and show he could play without being suspended. Lappy has 11 points in 54 games where Richardson has 17 in 62, and Lappy was pushing things as an agitator that we don't have to worry about with Richardson. I'll say it again since you didn't answer, but limit it to the last 3 years to make it easier: who would you say was available that he should have acquired and for what cost?
  
• Actually I do argue what you say. It wasn't embarrassing, but it was certainly a situation that was made much harder than it needed to be by not being able to move Luongo after his contract (one that was good when signed) became bad with the declining cap and retroactive penalties.
  
• The situation surrounding the trade is important as context, but if you don't care about that then I can't help you. You give Gillis crap for rejecting deals and doing nothing yet you want him to wait a year on a player whose agent was demanding when he got a good offer in Kassian? There's a reason why Gillis was showcasing Hodgson with optimal usage - sitting on that and risking teams seeing his flaws likely would have decreased his value. The Pens got lucky with a lottery pick (a few actually), the Hawks were in the same boat as the Pens, but unless we get that bad (or that lucky in the lottery) I'm not sure how we can be expected to compete in drafting. Since the return we were offered for Kesler is a redundant 3rd line center and a 25+ overall pick, I'm not even sure how you expect us to compete with the Bruins drafting either. Buffalo and Calgary aren't jumping to give us 3 top picks in the next two years for anyone we have.
  

You've yet to show how he's done more harm than good. The team's on ice performance is well below what it should be, but how you put that solely on the GM instead of the players and coaches - even if Gillis was involved in their being here - I don't understand.

Since you apparently would get great pleasure out of Gillis being fired, I don't believe you hate seeing people fired at all. If only you could provide proof he deserves it...

...

Are you attempting to find issues in what I am saying or defending the bozo GM? Why so many defend Gillis is beyond me... you all should seriously go on the TSN boards and Twitter where they are calling for his head.

The posters on TSN are worse than here, no thanks. You can find plenty of opinions of Twitter, but certainly it's been proven many times for Twitter that the people who should say the least often are the most vocal. It's easy to make unsubstantiated claims on the internet.

But you're attempting to prove Gillis should be fired with terrible, terrible excuses for facts. They're so twisted and biased that all you've done is prove how little you really understand the situation. TSN and Twitter might be the place for you.