[RUMOURS] Daily TSN Trade Rumours, Off Season Edition

[He-Lord]

Some of you wouldn't do Horvat + 6th overall for the 1st overall? I'd do it.

It isn't overpayment. It makes sense for both teams. We're going to need a 1C for the post-Sedin era and neither Horvat nor the 6th overall pick can bring us that. That's why you pay a premium - because 1Cs are rare, and by trading two potential top 6 talents (Horvat + 6th) we get a potential 1C in return. Florida has Huberdeau and Bjugstad so they can afford to pass on this opportunity to add depth to their future lineup with a 2/3C like Horvat and a top 6 winger with the 6th overall.

I acknowledge that this "depletes" our prospects pool. But I would argue that our prospect pool IS depleted at the most crucial shelf - the 1C. Without that piece to build a future around, it doesn't matter how rich we are in supporting cast talent, which is Horvat, which is Shinkaruk, Jensen, Gaunce, Cassels, Corrado, which is what the 6th overall would be, and so on.

Another point. We can replenish whatever holes we give up with Horvat + 6th right away, or even before we make the trade up to 1st overall (granted that FLA is good with Horvat + 6th). We are trading Ryan Kesler.

Kesler's return will fill whatever gaps remain after we make a trade for the 1st overall to get our center piece to build around. I know there's sentimental values to Horvat because he's linked to Schneider. But Horvat nor the 6th can bring us what a Reinhart can. We have to take that chance if it's available. Right now, what we need the most is a future 1C or franchise defenseman to build around. The 1st overall can bring us one of those.

Damn right I wouldn't do it. It's a garbage trade and doesn't actually work out in the long term for us. Yes, we need a 1C. But we also need a 2C which Horvat has the potential of taking over. Stop acting like Horvat is easily replaced. He actually isn't.

It's amazing how people are incapable of thinking about this in regard to our long term needs. Hate to break it to some of you, but Reinhart isn't that good that he requires that we give up 6th overall and our top prospect.

[Gaudette Celly]

What is it about Horvat + the 6th for the 1st is a terrible move for us that people just don't understand?

Because they believe fairy tales told by local media paid to write columns and act like they know something.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

According to Tom Gulitti, for Ilya Kovalchuk to return to the NHL next season, all 30 teams would have to OK it.

[Tangerines]

According to Tom Gulitti, for Ilya Kovalchuk to return to the NHL next season, all 30 teams would have to OK it.

Does he become a free agent?

[-Vintage Canuck-]

Does he become a free agent?

He would become an unrestricted free agent if he was to pursue a return to the NHL for the 2018-19 season.

[DeNiro]

He would become an unrestricted free agent if he was to pursue a return to the NHL for the 2018-19 season.

All 30 teams would have to okay it.

Doubt New Jersey would be one of those teams.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Some of you wouldn't do Horvat + 6th overall for the 1st overall? I'd do it.

It isn't overpayment. It makes sense for both teams. We're going to need a 1C for the post-Sedin era and neither Horvat nor the 6th overall pick can bring us that. That's why you pay a premium - because 1Cs are rare, and by trading two potential top 6 talents (Horvat + 6th) we get a potential 1C in return. Florida has Huberdeau and Bjugstad so they can afford to pass on this opportunity to add depth to their future lineup with a 2/3C like Horvat and a top 6 winger with the 6th overall.

I acknowledge that this "depletes" our prospects pool. But I would argue that our prospect pool IS depleted at the most crucial shelf - the 1C. Without that piece to build a future around, it doesn't matter how rich we are in supporting cast talent, which is Horvat, which is Shinkaruk, Jensen, Gaunce, Cassels, Corrado, which is what the 6th overall would be, and so on.

Another point. We can replenish whatever holes we give up with Horvat + 6th right away, or even before we make the trade up to 1st overall (granted that FLA is good with Horvat + 6th). We are trading Ryan Kesler.

Kesler's return will fill whatever gaps remain after we make a trade for the 1st overall to get our center piece to build around. I know there's sentimental values to Horvat because he's linked to Schneider. But Horvat nor the 6th can bring us what a Reinhart can. We have to take that chance if it's available. Right now, what we need the most is a future 1C or franchise defenseman to build around. The 1st overall can bring us one of those.

Could end up looking foolish if Reinhart doesn't reach that lofty ceiling, yet Horvat & Nylander/Ehlers smash through theirs.

[Warhippy]

All 30 teams would have to okay it.

Doubt New Jersey would be one of those teams.

If they're off the hook of his pay....I doubt they care

[JeremyCuddles]

I did, and all it does is pump the tires of one kid who has done nothing in the NHL yet, while ignoring how good guys like Horvat really are.

Oh, and no, Kulikov would not make me consider it, either. Horvat and 6th is way too much to give up, and I hope Benning isn't that stupid.

Trading a guy for another guy who hasn't played in the NHL, the ironing is delicious. If we were offered Kulikov and the 1st overall for Horvat and the 6th I say yes and laugh all the way to the bank.

But honestly they'd want roster players. That trade seems like a step back for them. Horvat we don't even know if he's NHL ready yet and that guy at 6th isn't likely to jump in either. Florida should consider just taking Ekblad.

[He-Lord]

Trading a guy for another guy who hasn't played in the NHL, the ironing is delicious. If we were offered Kulikov and the 1st overall for Horvat and the 6th I say yes and laugh all the way to the bank.

But honestly they'd want roster players. That trade seems like a step back for them. Horvat we don't even know if he's NHL ready yet and that guy at 6th isn't likely to jump in either. Florida should consider just taking Ekblad.

And who says Reinhart will be any more ready?

[Guest Dasein]

What is it about Horvat + the 6th for the 1st is a terrible move for us that people just don't understand? Why would any of us even consider doing that trade? I just don't get it. Reinhart is projected to be a 1C, Horvat is projected to be an excellent 2C who can handle top line minutes. Why would we trade Horvat when we could keep him, and get Reinhart through seperate trade(s)?

If we can get the 1st overall without giving up Horvat, by all means. I was just saying if we called and Florida said "Horvat + 6th or no deal" it's something we should still do. Excellent 2Cs are not 1Cs. It's easier to acquire excellent 2Cs than 1Cs, so if we can use one to get a 1C then do it. We can add a 2C to fill Horvat's void via trade, which we can even address immediately by trading our current excellent 2C, Ryan Kesler. But we can't get a 1C in return for Kesler even at this point when he has proven himself to be an excellent 2C, which strengthens my point further that 1Cs are much harder to get than 2Cs.

Damn right I wouldn't do it. It's a garbage trade and doesn't actually work out in the long term for us. Yes, we need a 1C. But we also need a 2C which Horvat has the potential of taking over. Stop acting like Horvat is easily replaced. He actually isn't.

It's amazing how people are incapable of thinking about this in regard to our long term needs. Hate to break it to some of you, but Reinhart isn't that good that he requires that we give up 6th overall and our top prospect.

I'm not knocking on Horvat. He's a great player, but he's not on Reinhart's level. Using Horvat to get Reinhart does leave a hole at 2C, but 2Cs are much easier to get when they are older via trade or UFA than 1Cs. For the most part, you have to draft your 1C:

SJS (Joe Thornton), DAL (Tyler Seguin), NYR (Brad Richards) and PHX (Mike Ribiero) are the only 4 teams out of 30 that have a 1C that they traded for or signed via UFA. The other 26 have drafted them (exception: Desharnais (MTL) was signed as a FA (undrafted), but has started and remained with MTL nonetheless). Spezza could become the first legitimate 1C that becomes traded or signed as a UFA since Brad Richards in 2008/2012 and Joe Thornton back in 2005 - that's only 3X in almost a decade now in between where a star 1C is traded/signed as a UFA.

2Cs that have been traded or signed as a UFA since that time are plenty. That's my point.

If we can use a 2C to get a 1C, we better do it because a 2C is much easier fill it back. In fact, we could almost immediately fill it back by trading Ryan Kesler, our current 2C, for a future 2C.

Again, I don't want to trade Horvat either. If you see my response to the person above your quote, my preference isn't trading Horvat + 6th package for the 1st overall. I was saying that, hypothetically, if Florida said "Horvat + 6th" or no deal, we should still do it.

Could end up looking foolish if Reinhart doesn't reach that lofty ceiling, yet Horvat & Nylander/Ehlers smash through theirs.

What is your "lofty ceiling" for Reinhart? I think we can agree Reinhart will be the best of the bunch of Horvat, Nylander and Ehlers. Even if he doesn't reach whatever lofty ceilings you project him on, he would still be better than any of those 3 players. Not that foolish to me if he pans out to be a 1C, which is just as likely as Horvat panning out to be a 2C.

[He-Lord]

If we can get the 1st overall without giving up Horvat, by all means. I was just saying if we called and Florida said "Horvat + 6th or no deal" it's something we should still do. Excellent 2Cs are not 1Cs. It's easier to acquire excellent 2Cs than 1Cs, so if we can use one to get a 1C then do it. We can add a 2C to fill Horvat's void via trade, which we can even address immediately by trading our current excellent 2C, Ryan Kesler. But we can't get a 1C in return for Kesler even at this point when he has proven himself to be an excellent 2C, which strengthens my point further that 1Cs are much harder to get than 2Cs.

I'm not knocking on Horvat. He's a great player, but he's not on Reinhart's level. Using Horvat to get Reinhart does leave a hole at 2C, but 2Cs are much easier to get when they are older via trade or UFA than 1Cs. For the most part, you have to draft your 1C:

SJS (Joe Thornton), DAL (Tyler Seguin), NYR (Brad Richards) and PHX (Mike Ribiero) are the only 4 teams out of 30 that have a 1C that they traded for. The other 26 have drafted them (exception: Desharnais (MTL) was signed as a FA (undrafted), but has started and remained with MTL nonetheless). Spezza could become the first legitimate 1C that becomes traded or signed as a UFA since Joe Thornton back in 2005 - that's almost a decade now in between where a star 1C is traded.

2Cs that have been traded or signed as a UFA since that time are plenty. That's my point.

If we can use a 2C to get a 1C, we better do it because a 2C is much easier fill it back. In fact, we could almost immediately fill it back by trading Ryan Kesler, our current 2C, for a future 2C.

Again, I don't want to trade Horvat either. If you see my response to the person above your quote, my preference isn't trading Horvat + 6th package for the 1st overall. I was saying that, hypothetically, if Florida said "Horvat + 6th" or no deal, we should still do it.

What is your "lofty ceiling" for Reinhart? I think we can agree Reinhart will be the best of the bunch of Horvat, Nylander and Ehlers. Even if he doesn't reach whatever lofty ceilings you project him on, he would still be better than any of those 3 players. Not that foolish to me if he pans out to be a 1C, which is just as likely as Horvat panning out to be a 2C.

Again, I'm not seeing how Reinhart is this special talent that we need to "go all in" for. I have no doubts he looks like a great prospect, but he isn't some great talent that requires us giving up both the 6th and Horvat. If that's the cost, then we draft at 6 and still have Horvat instead. In the long run, we will be much better for it.

A 2C may be more easier to replace than a 1C, but that doesn't mean replacing a 2C on it's own is easy. I want us to have a great 2C, not some mediocre one we got from the bargain bin. Horvat has the makings to not only replace Kesler, but actually surpass him.

[Ghostsof1915]

What part of this doesn't make sense? You're spinning your wheels if you keep trading picks for prospects. Edler for the 1st overall if he's willing to waive. Or any other deal that does not involve our prospects.

You want to hold onto your prospects and get more prospects. Not flip prospects every year. This isn't real estate. Trading Horvat is counter productive because then you're putting the team behind by another year waiting for the player to get experience in the AHL or CHL, until they are NHL ready.

We don't want to make the Edmonton mistake in having to throw your rookies to the wolves and start in the NHL and ruin their development. Horvat and Reinhart sounds a lot better than Reinhart on his own. If we're talking a generational talent like possibly McDavid, that's when you might make an exception.

[timberz21]

If we can get the 1st overall without giving up Horvat, by all means. I was just saying if we called and Florida said "Horvat + 6th or no deal" it's something we should still do. Excellent 2Cs are not 1Cs. It's easier to acquire excellent 2Cs than 1Cs, so if we can use one to get a 1C then do it. We can add a 2C to fill Horvat's void via trade, which we can even address immediately by trading our current excellent 2C, Ryan Kesler. But we can't get a 1C in return for Kesler even at this point when he has proven himself to be an excellent 2C, which strengthens my point further that 1Cs are much harder to get than 2Cs.

I'm not knocking on Horvat. He's a great player, but he's not on Reinhart's level. Using Horvat to get Reinhart does leave a hole at 2C, but 2Cs are much easier to get when they are older via trade or UFA than 1Cs. For the most part, you have to draft your 1C:

SJS (Joe Thornton), DAL (Tyler Seguin), NYR (Brad Richards) and PHX (Mike Ribiero) are the only 4 teams out of 30 that have a 1C that they traded for or signed via UFA. The other 26 have drafted them (exception: Desharnais (MTL) was signed as a FA (undrafted), but has started and remained with MTL nonetheless). Spezza could become the first legitimate 1C that becomes traded or signed as a UFA since Brad Richards in 2008/2012 and Joe Thornton back in 2005 - that's only 3X in almost a decade now in between where a star 1C is traded/signed as a UFA.

2Cs that have been traded or signed as a UFA since that time are plenty. That's my point.

If we can use a 2C to get a 1C, we better do it because a 2C is much easier fill it back. In fact, we could almost immediately fill it back by trading Ryan Kesler, our current 2C, for a future 2C.

Again, I don't want to trade Horvat either. If you see my response to the person above your quote, my preference isn't trading Horvat + 6th package for the 1st overall. I was saying that, hypothetically, if Florida said "Horvat + 6th" or no deal, we should still do it.

What is your "lofty ceiling" for Reinhart? I think we can agree Reinhart will be the best of the bunch of Horvat, Nylander and Ehlers. Even if he doesn't reach whatever lofty ceilings you project him on, he would still be better than any of those 3 players. Not that foolish to me if he pans out to be a 1C, which is just as likely as Horvat panning out to be a 2C.

And how many of these 1C were drafted later on. Getzlaft 19th overall, Giroux 22th overall, Bergeron 45th overall, Kopitar 11th overall, Kesler 23rd ovearll, Richards 24th overall, Carter 11th overall.

While the Oilers are picking 1st, RNH, Yakupov, Hall and none of them are dominating (90+pts) 1st line players yet.

You would give up a potentially great 2C + potential 1C with the 6th overall. Yes, Reinhart has more odd he will make it, but i'd rather take my chances with Horvat + 6th overall than go all in for Reinhart.

[Guest Dasein]

Again, I'm not seeing how Reinhart is this special talent that we need to "go all in" for. I have no doubts he looks like a great prospect, but he isn't some great talent that requires us giving up both the 6th and Horvat. If that's the cost, then we draft at 6 and still have Horvat instead. In the long run, we will be much better for it.

A 2C may be more easier to replace than a 1C, but that doesn't mean replacing a 2C on it's own is easy. I want us to have a great 2C, not some mediocre one we got from the bargain bin. Horvat has the makings to not only replace Kesler, but actually surpass him.

Horvat + 6th isn't going all in. We still have Kassian, Jensen, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Cassels, Tanev, Corrado, Cederholm and Subban. Add Reinhart to that list and the prospects and picks we get from the Ryan Kesler trade.

I guess if you want a great 2C keeping Horvat could be a priority. I just think there will be great 2Cs available in the near future for grabs, whereas a 1C will not be as readily available.

[Noseforthenet]

If we can get the 1st overall without giving up Horvat, by all means. I was just saying if we called and Florida said "Horvat + 6th or no deal" it's something we should still do. Excellent 2Cs are not 1Cs. It's easier to acquire excellent 2Cs than 1Cs, so if we can use one to get a 1C then do it. We can add a 2C to fill Horvat's void via trade, which we can even address immediately by trading our current excellent 2C, Ryan Kesler. But we can't get a 1C in return for Kesler even at this point when he has proven himself to be an excellent 2C, which strengthens my point further that 1Cs are much harder to get than 2Cs.

I'm not knocking on Horvat. He's a great player, but he's not on Reinhart's level. Using Horvat to get Reinhart does leave a hole at 2C, but 2Cs are much easier to get when they are older via trade or UFA than 1Cs. For the most part, you have to draft your 1C:

SJS (Joe Thornton), DAL (Tyler Seguin), NYR (Brad Richards) and PHX (Mike Ribiero) are the only 4 teams out of 30 that have a 1C that they traded for or signed via UFA. The other 26 have drafted them (exception: Desharnais (MTL) was signed as a FA (undrafted), but has started and remained with MTL nonetheless). Spezza could become the first legitimate 1C that becomes traded or signed as a UFA since Brad Richards in 2008/2012 and Joe Thornton back in 2005 - that's only 3X in almost a decade now in between where a star 1C is traded/signed as a UFA.

2Cs that have been traded or signed as a UFA since that time are plenty. That's my point.

If we can use a 2C to get a 1C, we better do it because a 2C is much easier fill it back. In fact, we could almost immediately fill it back by trading Ryan Kesler, our current 2C, for a future 2C.

Again, I don't want to trade Horvat either. If you see my response to the person above your quote, my preference isn't trading Horvat + 6th package for the 1st overall. I was saying that, hypothetically, if Florida said "Horvat + 6th" or no deal, we should still do it.

What is your "lofty ceiling" for Reinhart? I think we can agree Reinhart will be the best of the bunch of Horvat, Nylander and Ehlers. Even if he doesn't reach whatever lofty ceilings you project him on, he would still be better than any of those 3 players. Not that foolish to me if he pans out to be a 1C, which is just as likely as Horvat panning out to be a 2C.

This is actually a very good point. And it also pretty much just tells us who we should pick at 6 if we still have the pick and/or if Kes isn't traded for a high end center.

Will Reinhart pan out better than Nylander. It's most likely. Alot of scouts see Nylander as a special talent, however.

At the end of the day, we need depth at all positions to compete for the cup. Horvat is necessary. We need to get to the top 3 picks. Probably will not be this close again for awhile. We just can't let Horvat go though. If Tallon would take Gaunce, Jensen, and our 6th overall, I would do it, but we just can't do Horvat. And I like Gaunce. Feel he will be better than people anticipate. Probably become a 2nd line center in the ilk of Mike Fisher. Same as Jensen. Both have the talent, but for that #1 center, losing that sort of depth is okay. Horvat isn't.

[johngould21]

What part of this doesn't make sense? You're spinning your wheels if you keep trading picks for prospects. Edler for the 1st overall if he's willing to waive. Or any other deal that does not involve our prospects.

You want to hold onto your prospects and get more prospects. Not flip prospects every year. This isn't real estate. Trading Horvat is counter productive because then you're putting the team behind by another year waiting for the player to get experience in the AHL or CHL, until they are NHL ready.

We don't want to make the Edmonton mistake in having to throw your rookies to the wolves and start in the NHL and ruin their development. Horvat and Reinhart sounds a lot better than Reinhart on his own. If we're talking a generational talent like possibly McDavid, that's when you might make an exception.

The Canucks used this model in the 70's and 80's, and look where that got them. Edmonton is doing this now, and they are still years away from contending. Trading good picks for quick fixes never seems to work, I'd rather they develop into good, sound, NHL ready players rather than throw them to the wolves as you say. Hell, the twins stayed in Sweden the first year after they were drafted.

[Guest Dasein]

And how many of these 1C were drafted later on. Getzlaft 19th overall, Giroux 22th overall, Bergeron 45th overall, Kopitar 11th overall, Kesler 23rd ovearll, Richards 24th overall, Carter 11th overall.

While the Oilers are picking 1st, RNH, Yakupov, Hall and none of them are dominating (90+pts) 1st line players yet.

You would give up a potentially great 2C + potential 1C with the 6th overall. Yes, Reinhart has more odd he will make it, but i'd rather take my chances with Horvat + 6th overall than go all in for Reinhart.

Firstly, Bergeron, Kesler, Richards and Carter are not 1Cs. They are 2Cs on their respective teams, but I'll play along.

Your list includes 5 players from arguably the deepest draft in the history of the NHL (Getzlaf, Bergeron, Kesler, Richards, Carter). Outside of that Giroux and Kopitar remain. Kopitar fell being the first from his country to have any talent, and Giroux's rise to stardom is something you almost never see. I wouldn't bank on it. Reinhart is definitely much safer than a Hale Mary pick-and-pray.

What does the Oilers poor drafting have to do with this? Seguin over Hall (arguable - Hall is a hell of a winger), Landeskog over RNH, Murray/Galchenyuk over Yakupov could have had them well on their way.

Horvat becoming a 1C is akin to the likelihood Reinhart wins the Art Ross. Almost impossible. So if Horvat is a potential 1C, Reinhart is a potential elite 1C.

Horvat could become an excellent 2-way 2C, but even in that category he'll have stiff competition. He was a very high draft pick for a player of his potential. If you look at traditional bonafide 2Cs in this league they are late 1st round picks or 2nd+ round picks. So I think most people get fooled by his draft position and think it guarantees him dominance at 2C, but most of his competitions are flying under the radar as later picks and it's going to be just as hard for Horvat to become a top tier 2C as it is for Reinhart to be a top tier 1C.

[Gurn]

Edmonton can trade 2 or 3 offensive stars for help on the D. Why they don't is the question that puzzles me. They have assets, just too many in the wrong spots.

[Noseforthenet]

Firstly, Bergeron, Kesler, Richards and Carter are not 1Cs. They are 2Cs on their respective teams, but I'll play along.

Your list includes 5 players from arguably the deepest draft in the history of the NHL (Getzlaf, Bergeron, Kesler, Richards, Carter). Outside of that Giroux and Kopitar remain. Kopitar fell being the first from his country to have any talent, and Giroux's rise to stardom is something you almost never see. I wouldn't bank on it. Reinhart is definitely much safer than a Hale Mary pick-and-pray.

What does the Oilers poor drafting have to do with this? Seguin over Hall (arguable - Hall is a hell of a winger), Landeskog over RNH, Murray/Galchenyuk over Yakupov could have had them well on their way.

Horvat becoming a 1C is akin to the likelihood Reinhart wins the Art Ross. Almost impossible. So if Horvat is a potential 1C, Reinhart is a potential elite 1C.

Horvat could become an excellent 2-way 2C, but even in that category he'll have stiff competition. He was a very high draft pick for a player of his potential. If you look at traditional bonafide 2Cs in this league they are late 1st round picks or 2nd+ round picks. So I think most people get fooled by his draft position and think it guarantees him dominance at 2C, but most of his competitions are flying under the radar as later picks and it's going to be just as hard for Horvat to become a top tier 2C as it is for Reinhart to be a top tier 1C.

If I am JB I say "Tallon. Talk to me about any of the assets I have besides Horvat and Shinkaruk for the 2014 pick. And I do mean any of them."