JeremyCuddles Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 What a dumba**. I feel a little bit more stupid after reading that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadali Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 This writer has opinions based on numbers. There are too many things numbers won't show. I am glad we have JB & TL, they made decision based on hockey sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bp79 Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Wow waht a joke of an article. To say that faceoffs don;t matter gives this writer dueche of the year. its obvious this guy has watched zero of bohos games. I f he had he would have noticed how quickly bo has gotten better sorry but I hate when people use analytics as there only arguement. and to say this is just a pr move from a team that is 15-6 is quite insulting to jb and tl. Bo has done everything right on d and now that he's getting used to the nhl youre seeing his offense coming around The final straw for this article for me was the writersa need to throw another insult about drafting virtanen just because he's a b.c boy. What a load of shit. this kid popped 45 goals in the stingiest of the 3 leagues, has sick speed and an nhl body all while being the youngest in the draft while playing hurt. Sorry to say but nylander and ehlers come with a huge disclaimer ,buyer beware. In order to overcome size u need extreme skill. if these guys had that generational elite skill like pat kane for example then they would have been drafted 1-4th overall Sure maybe they pull a claude giroux who was passed up and drafted 22nd I think. but i tend to think that the top 7 picks and there teams came to the conclusion these guys were nopat kane and after players like st louis and giroux got overlooked Im sure scouts have a much better read on things so that doesn't happen again. Imho I think these guys end up more like jordon shroeder super skilled in juniour but unable to take it to the next leveel in the nhl. add in getting beat down and injured and you get the picture. I think Jake could have made the team this year defense can be taught size speed and a hwetzer for a shot are gifts. If the leafs thought so highly of willie y not send him to the marlies and let him get used to the smaller rink? i think they knew that pooe little boy would just be annilated.as for ehlers the jets have one line that can score yet wasn't even given a 9 game stint. Not to mention without droiun last time i checked jake cassels mcann were all averaging more points per game, with subban not fae behind. pr move my sweet skinny ass s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicky Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 It's Puck Daddy, that said the guy lost me when he said the BS about FO's. Defensive zone FO wins in the playoffs or must win games are critical. Look how many games we lost last year in the last minute due to a lost FO or got extended to OT or the shootout and lost. I don't like the writeup as much as anyone here but to be fair the article he links to back up his statement on FOs is about regular season only. It basically states that over the course of a season, FO win/losses are not a strong contributor to both offence or defence. It alludes to another article (link would not work for me) that suggests the exact opposite is true during the post-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thad Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 We are one win away from first in the west and have the best 4th line we've seen in years lol... You know things are going extremely well when all they have to criticize is the fact we kept Bo Horvat(who just happens to be a face off wiz kid). We aren't going to hold this team back over contract issues. It's not like he's some josh Ho sang your worried he's going to demand 5 mill after scoring 20 goals in his third year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Looks like a bunch of garbage conclusions based on a handful of games, but I find it interesting that these analytics guys preach "possession, possession, possession," then some at the same come up with an argument that faceoffs don't matter. Hello? A faceoff win is pretty much key to gaining possession in the first place. I agree that our expectations on Horvat should be tempered, but the kid has been playing VERY good 2-way hockey for a 19yr old. Something we haven't seen for quite awhile. He looks to be a solid, solid addition. So give us a break, tool. But the redundant last shot about Virtanen over 'more skilled' guys Ehlers and Nylander (because that soft as butter skill really helped the Ololier's rebuild effort, right?) confirms that this 'writer' is nothing but a troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 The faceoffs don't matter bs is quite laughable when you consider how much better the Canucks have been doing now that they have a decent faceoff option in there. Before that we were getting absolutely trounced on the corsi/fenwick counts. Now, we're in every game, if not leading. I mean, open your freaking eyes! I think Horvat's faceoff ability is being understated here to say the least. 60+% for a 19yr old is unheard of. This writer seems to be a bit clueless. It's a shame that all these fancy proxy possession stats are out there, but hardly anyone knows how to apply them to any sort of context. Anyway, back to being reasonable about Horvat. He's playing 5-6mins a game. This is not a Toewsish start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Lack of centre depth? He obviously doesn't follow this team very closely.. That comment alone made me skeptical of his opinion. I think they mean at the NHL level. Matthias is pretty much a winger, and so we only have Henrik, Bonino, Richardson and Vey (who is a rookie like Bo). We have a lot of centers who can contribute down the line in junior, but we do lack depth at the NHL level, which is exactly why Horvat had a chance to make this team as a 19-year-old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 I think they mean at the NHL level. Matthias is pretty much a winger, and so we only have Henrik, Bonino, Richardson and Vey (who is a rookie like Bo). We have a lot of centers who can contribute down the line in junior, but we do lack depth at the NHL level, which is exactly why Horvat had a chance to make this team as a 19-year-old.Torts was pushing for Bo last year, but that was just too early. I'd be more concerned about him staying up if he wasn't already built like a man. And he's a better skater than Draisaitl at least, so there's that. But his faceoff ability is key. (Unimportant? lol. It's almost the only reason he's still up.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Torts was pushing for Bo last year, but that was just too early. I'd be more concerned about him staying up if he wasn't already built like a man. And he's a better skater than Draisaitl at least, so there's that. But his faceoff ability is key. (Unimportant? lol. It's almost the only reason he's still up.) Henrik, Kesler, Santo, Richardson and Schroeder/Dalpe is not exactly better than this year's combination. The last two don't have NHL jobs and Santo was a reclamation project. And I didn't say anything about faceoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Henrik, Kesler, Santo, Richardson and Schroeder/Dalpe is not exactly better than this year's combination. The last two don't have NHL jobs and Santo was a reclamation project. And I didn't say anything about faceoffs.Henrik, Bonino, Richardson, VEY was going to be a problem. We were getting hammered on draws, for starters, and that does lead to a lot of shots-against. But I was talking about faceoffs because the idiot in the article highlighted they weren't important when they obviously are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinkaruk_9 Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 If face offs and other intangibles aren't a big deal, as they don't seem to be to this guy, I'm guessing Toews isn't even a top-10 player and Bergy isn't a top-25...SMH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Faceoff's don't really matter? Try telling that to all the NHL coaches ROFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70seven Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 PR moves? I dont think so,,,LMAO.. the Virtanen comment was a dumb shot. Yup there were more skilled players available for sure. Tell me whats winning in the West these days? Hows that working for Edmonton? Derp. Its extremely rare that a teenager can come into the best league in the world and win faceoffs at the rate that Horvat is winning, not to mention that of his 9 games played, hes lined up vs SJ, LA, Ana x 2, Chi. And 29 - 9 over his last 3 games vs Ana, Chi, and NJ! Though that statistic may not be a crutial one, he's already got two assist directly relating to his effort on the draw, so yeah they do make a difference, specifically for a puck control team. Lets look at other dominant 2 way centers FO% in their 19 year old season... Toews @ 19 years old won at a 53% clip. Bergeron @ 19 years old won at a 54.7% clip. Kopitar didnt get above 50% until his 24 year old season. Kesler didnt get above 50% until his 21 year old season. Pavelski didnt get above 50% until his 22 year old season. Malhotra didnt get above 50% until his 23 year old season. Of rookie centers this season that have taken 50 or more draws, only 3 others are above 50%. Rask (21), Pacquette (21), and Laata (23)... Interestingly they all have had another 2-4 years of development. Though some may consider face offs an obscure statistic, they should also take not that it is an attribute that can heavily impact special teams, icing calls, as well as those key moments when protecting a lead as the game nears its end. And those moments become magnified during the playoffs. I dont know whether Horvat will ever produce offense at a Toews/Bergeron level, but if he continues the trend, you can bet your ars that he'll be one of the leagues very best shut down centers, and one whos value doubles when the games matter the most, which could pay divedends as early as this June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robongo Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Well that was a load of bs. Firstly, you can't only look at the stats. Secoundly, if he had watched Horvat in the games against Anaheim and Chicago he'd see that Horvat is clearly good enough to play in the NHL. In those game he was actually one of the most dominant players IMO. Which is really impressive as it means he can really step it up against tough competition. And in all the other games except for the first game against Anaheim he's been more than solid. Horvat benefits way more from playing 10ish minutes/game in the NHL than in Jr's. Yes you can, just ask oldnews. Advanced stats > everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Another argument, 'can he keep it up?' is an odd one. Um, keep what up? So far he's being deployed mainly against opposing 4th liners for only a handful of minutes per game, and outside of one highlight night by Hansen, he hasn't done much to warrant a 'fast start that will fade' argument at all. If anything, he'll do more and more as the season progresses. He's a legit prospect with legit upside, not a flash in the pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48MPHSlapShot Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 What a terrible article. I honestly think some people shouldn't be allowed to have opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awalk Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Typically I like reading a devil's advocate piece but this was not well constructed at all, and the final sentiments are silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blömqvist Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Typically I like reading a devil's advocate piece but this was not well constructed at all, and the final sentiments are silly. I agree. I was hoping for some constructive criticism on Horvat, but yea there isn't any logic in his argument. I hope that Horvat gets to play a bit more in this road trip to ensure our top guys are relatively fresh/rested. I'd love to see him play against better quality lines a bit more often. Horvat vs Toews was fun to watch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanuck Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Unlike other posters on CDC, I will not come off like I know better than solid hockey people like Benning/Linden/WD - what I will say though, and you don't need to know much about hockey at all to see this, is that how Benning/Linden/WD handle the Horvat development is actually far greater a concern than just Horvat and if he does or doesn't have a successful season this year. This is because, for a change, the franchise has some prospect depth and Horvat's development (give or take some differences as each prospect as we know develops independently of another) will undoubtedly set the trend for the rest of the prospect pool. For that reason, amongst many others, the Horvat situation is intriguing. Personally, I am old-school and tend to lean much more towards the Detroit style of development where players develop in the minors until they are absolutely ready for the big-leagues vs. the Oiler style of sink or swim on our miserable team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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