Wayne Gretzky now? (X-post HF)

[Argon]

Look at it this way, if Crosby was born in the 60's, and only had the benefit of their methods of 'training', Gretzky would still be miles ahead of him.

[The Weasel]

You can't compare eras - ever. You can only compare players within their era. Gretzky was way beyond everyone else from his time. He is the greatest without doubt.

Shift-4 is GOAT coach.

Shift-4 >>> AV

[Ghostsof1915]

I would counter that a player like Lemieux with his size would be successful no matter what era you'd put him in.

It was only because of health issues, and playing on some horrible Penguins teams that kept him down.

A healthy Lemieux I'd put against ANY player.

Lemieux and Gretzky on a line like in the 87 Canada Cup = Unstoppable. Game 2, 5 assists for Gretzky, hat-trick for Lemieux.

Check out the teams. The Russian team was insane. Fetisov, Krutov, Larionov, Makarov, Kamensky, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Canada_Cup

Imagine your goalie having a save percentage of .893, and 3.34 GAA (Fuhr)

Gretzky had the advantage of being on a stacked team, in a weak division.

Lemieux had to carry the load until the early 90's.

Defensive systems, butterfly styles of goaltending brought the end of an era.

Mario didn't need anyone to defend him. Just like Bobby Orr.

[Zfetch]

I did the mathz on this somewhere before, but I did a simple calculation involving both players in their prime year, in respect to team goals for. Some math later, I calculated Crosby had a 1.89 PPG in his prime if he were in Gretzkys era, in comparison to his own and Gretzkys team in their prime. Gretzky on the other hand, had a 1.92PPG in comparison to simply the GF in their respective eras.

Hes better alright, but not significantly.

[LaBamba]

The guy scored like 200+ points at 150lbs. Pure skill and intelligence.

Mario didn't have the team that Gretzky had but he was a massive man that could protect the puck and go to the net.

IMO Gretzky was the smartest player to ever play the game, Mario was the most physically talented.

Give Gretzky Mario's frame and you'll probably end up with a 300 point player on a 80's Oiler team.

Anyone that questions Gretzky's greatness either never saw him play or has blind hatred for him, much like the world has against Vancouver.

[bd71]

Gretzky put up 97 points in 1996-1997 at 36 in his 17th season and finished 5th in scoring. He put up 90 in 1997-1998 and finished third in scoring. Right in the middle of the dead puck era he was still a top five scorer in his 17 and 18th seasons. I'm thinking he would be great wherever and whenever he played.

[Ghostsof1915]

Oddly enough this story got printed today. NHL.com

Nicklas Lidstrom says Mario Lemieux is the best player he ever played against.

Retired Detroit Red Wings defenseman Nicklas Lidstrom said former Pittsburgh Penguins center Mario Lemieux was the best player he faced during his career, according to a report in the Swedish newspaper Expressen.

"It was all about Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux and Steve Yzerman," said Lidstrom, who will be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in November. "Lemieux had an incredible reach and some really good skills with his stick. Gretzky had that too, but he made all the players around him better. Individually, I would say Lemieux was the better player."

Lidstrom, 45, works for the Red Wings as a scout after playing in 1,827 NHL games in 20 seasons. He said he is pleased to see Swedish defensemen starring in the League.

"Erik Karlsson [of the Ottawa Senators] already is a world-class defenseman and I really enjoy seeing Victor Hedman [Tampa Bay Lightning] taking a big step in his career," Lidstrom said. "I'm also impressed by Hampus Lindholm [Anaheim Ducks], who plays against the top lines all the time. And of course, Oliver Ekman-Larsson; he's been the best [Arizona Coyotes] defenseman for years now."

Lidstrom also discussed a venture he is undertaking with retired Swedish tennis star Stefan Edberg. They are involved with Case, an asset-management company. Edberg is the majority stockholder.

"I want to learn more about the financial world, and to act as a co-partner as well as an ambassador for the company," Lidstrom said. "It's a whole new world to me. I know a little about this world, but there's still a lot to learn. I really feel like a rookie."

Edberg, 49, who won the U.S. Open and Wimbledon twice each, has had Lidstrom on the tennis courts a few times when they meet to discuss business in either Stockholm or Vaxjo, Edberg's hometown.

"It's a certain feeling to play against one of the best," Lidstrom said. "It was kind of awesome to realize that the harder I hit the ball, the harder it came back."

NHL.com/se writer Janne Bengtsson contributed to this story.

[apollo]

I've watched him play lots of games on nhl classics (well but a lot probably only 30 or so)

I find it hard to respect his stats when most of his goals that either he scored or assisted on wouldn't have a chance in hell in today's nhl vs a goalie like luongo, Lundqvist, Miller, price, rinne etc.

You definitely can't compare eras.

[Down by the River]

Mario didn't need anyone to defend him. Just like Bobby Orr.

I wouldn't call picking fights with guys 30-50 pounds smaller than you 'tough' or 'defending himself'. Most of the time he just lost his temper and started throwing punches. He'd be the definition of a spot-picker.

[Ghostsof1915]

I wouldn't call picking fights with guys 30-50 pounds smaller than you 'tough' or 'defending himself'. Most of the time he just lost his temper and started throwing punches. He'd be the definition of a spot-picker.

I wouldn't say tough either. But he could defend himself. If he was playing the big bad Bruins I'm pretty sure he'd sent Marchand into the stands. Would he tussle with a guy like Lucic? No. But he's blow past him and just score on him.

[tyhee]

I did the mathz on this somewhere before, but I did a simple calculation involving both players in their prime year, in respect to team goals for. Some math later, I calculated Crosby had a 1.89 PPG in his prime if he were in Gretzkys era, in comparison to his own and Gretzkys team in their prime. Gretzky on the other hand, had a 1.92PPG in comparison to simply the GF in their respective eras.

Hes better alright, but not significantly.

Of course, Gretzky played on a much better team than Crosby. Notwithstanding Malkin, Gretzky's teams included Kurri, Tikkanen, Messier, Anderson and Coffey as well as support scorers such as MacTavish, Napier, Linseman and Krushelnyski. The Oilers of the '80's were before the salary cap era, which makes a difference in how many elite players a team can keep.

Oddly enough this story got printed today. NHL.com

Nicklas Lidstrom says Mario Lemieux is the best player he ever played against.

...

That isn't surprising. Pretty clearly Gretzky was the best player of the early and mid '80's and Lemieux the best player of the end of the '80's and the early '90's. There was some overlap in their primes in the mid to late 80's. Lidstrom entered the NHL in '91.

When Lidstrom broke into the NHL Lemieux was 26 and in his prime (though he suffered with injuries in Lidstrom's first season and was diagnosed with Hodgkins lymphoma part way through Lemieux's second year. Gretzky turned 31 that season and his best scoring years as well as his 8 consecutive scoring titles and 8 consecutive Hart trophies were in the past. Gretzky was still elite but his best days were behind him.

It's open to argument whether Gretzky at his best or Lemieux at his was the better player, but I don't think one can tell by a comparison that didn't include Gretzky's lengthy run as the best player in the league in the early to mid 1980's-before Lidstrom was playing.

[Putgolzin]

The disrespect shown to Gretzky by a generation of fans that never even saw him play is embarrassing.

Those same people typically haven't even heard of a guy named Ron Francis when they blindly parrot the accepted theory that Gretzky was surrounded by greats and Lemieux was all alone.

There was a magic to his game that I've never experienced watching any other player, even Mario as AMAZING as he truly was (and I admittedly never watched Orr or Howe).

For those who need something less ethereal than 'magic', I submit this along with the following question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_statistical_leaders#Regular_season:_Points

When each subsequent leader is 20-30 points ahead of the guy before him, HOW far above the number 2 spot would a guy have to be (considering all sets of different circumstances/comparables different era, different teammates, etc...) before he could be considered head and shoulders above any other player who has played the game?

[Putgolzin]

I did the mathz on this somewhere before, but I did a simple calculation involving both players in their prime year, in respect to team goals for. Some math later, I calculated Crosby had a 1.89 PPG in his prime if he were in Gretzkys era, in comparison to his own and Gretzkys team in their prime. Gretzky on the other hand, had a 1.92PPG in comparison to simply the GF in their respective eras.

Hes better alright, but not significantly.

You say you took both players "prime year" or "prime years", but 1.92 is Gretzky's PPG over his whole career (including 5 seasons at the end of his career where he was never much above 1.0PPG).

In his "prime years" (say between the ages of 20 and 27 where Crosby is now) Gretzky was above 2.5 PPG

[Zfetch]

You say you took both players "prime year" or "prime years", but 1.92 is Gretzky's PPG over his whole career (including 5 seasons at the end of his career where he was never much above 1.0PPG).

In his "prime years" (say between the ages of 20 and 27 where Crosby is now) Gretzky was above 2.5 PPG

It was something that had relation with GF of the team and whatnot.

I posted it earlier, I will try to find it and quote it.

Edit: Looking back, I may have messed up the calculations, but point is still fairly valid:

I would argue Crosby is right next to Gretsky. Much closer than you think.

Did a quick comparison:

These results are as of each player's highest points in a season.

Gretsky: 211 goals scored without him (215/426) 85-86

Crosby: 157 goals scored without him (120/277) 06-07

Although the eras are completely different.

This would be the best data I could come up with.

Gretsky's era scored 35% more than Crosby's when both star players were in their prime(At least so far for crosby)

Therefore multiply.35% point percentage to crosby's career and you get a fair comparison.

Best comparison:

Had they played in the same era:

Gretsky 1.92 points per game.

Crosby: 1.89 points per game.

Wow! Even I wasn't expecting that!

[Putgolzin]

So Gretzky was in on almost exactly 50% of Oiler goals in that given year, whereas Crosby was in on about 43% of Penguin goals in his biggest year.

I'm with you to this point, but I don't understand how it relates to the rest of your reasoning (which is also close to sound, it just doesn't relate to the aforementioned)

Doing a quick calculation it looks to be closer to 39% more scoring between those two years (which would help your argument).

So, if you wanted to simply apply that to that year, Crosby would be somewhere around 166 points or . If you applied it to his career to this point you would get the 1.89 PPG you've suggested.

However, you didn't give Gretzky the benefit of only using his first ten years (as in the case of Crosby), when you do that Gretzky comes out at 2.34 PPG.

That's certainly respectable in Crosby's case, but it probably puts him about where I think of him, like a Sakic or Yzerman type of level. Hall of Fame without any question, but in my mind Gretzky is always head and shoulders above these guys.

[-AJ-]

I think this thread that I made a few weeks back is relevant here. It's basically a statistical comparison of eras. I did the math based on the offense of today vs the offense of other eras to calculate a more relative number that makes it closer to comparing apples and apples (but obviously still not quite)

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/371023-comparing-eras-a-statistical-analysis/

[Putgolzin]

Very interesting analysis.

In addition to Mario`s higher ppg in the one year, he actually had a higher career ppg at the point that Gretzky retired.

Lemeiuz hadn't come out of retirement at that point and had a ppg of just over 2.0 to Gretzkys 1.92.

[messier's_elbow]

Gretzky put up 97 points in 1996-1997 at 36 in his 17th season and finished 5th in scoring. He put up 90 in 1997-1998 and finished third in scoring. Right in the middle of the dead puck era he was still a top five scorer in his 17 and 18th seasons. I'm thinking he would be great wherever and whenever he played.

This is exactly right. Anyone that doesn't think Wayne wouldn't still be one of the top 3 players in the league if he played today in his prime doesn't know what they are talking about. He and Lemieux were gods on ice.

[messier's_elbow]

Whoever voted 60-70 points is trolling or is a complete moron.

[Realtor Rod]

With the 85 team, I think he puts up 130 pts vs 215 today.