To Spank or not to Spank, we're talking about child discipline

[Mr. Ambien]

Interesting topic.

I too was spanked as a kid, belt and wooden spoon.

One time, after being spanked, a few days later, my brother and I ( I was 6 he was 3) took my mom's wooden spoon, broke it, and buried in her garden....a few days later, we got in trouble - she went to grab her spoon - couldn't find it. Brother and I made the mistake of laughing. When my dad got home from work - oh boy...we were in trouble...out of fear of his belt, we showed him where we buried it...we didn't get spanked - but my mom was really mad...

I only spanked my daughters a couple of times - we found that time outs worked better any ways.

My biggest issue today is - the lack of respect it seems kids show adults - I don't know if that's because of parents coddling their kids or what...I just hear about it through my wife and teaching...in the 70's, we respected our teachers....today...the kids don't give a crap....wife has been teaching for over 10 years - and it's worse today than it was 10 years ago...some of the things kids get away with today - would have been expulsions in my day...also, they don't fail kids anymore - what does that teach them? For when they grow up, they will be affected a lot more by life's failures IMHO....

Not only that but it's evident out in public who actually disciplines their kids and ensures they're well behaved and who doesn't.

[RUPERTKBD]

Me, and my two brothers and 1 sister were all spanked as kids. We all turned out fine, not angry or aggressive ppl. We all have our lives together and our family is incredibly close.

The question I have to ask is, how many times were you spanked? More than once?

My siblings and I were spanked many times by our parents. We weren't necessarily "bad" kids. I'd say were were pretty much normal, but in those days (early 60s) spanking was the de facto method of discipline and we got it for pretty much everything we did wrong.

One has to wonder why the "bad" behavior didn't stop. We knew we were likely to be spanked for virtually any infraction, yet we did as kids do.

The bottom line is, spanking is ineffective.

Not only that but it's evident out in public who actually disciplines their kids and ensures they're well behaved and who doesn't.

This is the point of your argument where you lose it. It's fine to say that spanking does not equal child abuse. In most cases, I'd agree.

However, this suggestion that parents who don't smoke are "pussified" and are sure to raise spoiled brats is just plain wrong.

As has been stated many times, (even by the pro-spanking crowd) there are many ways to discipline your child. Spanking is only one and IMHO, an ineffective one.

[inane]

Not surprising since you don't seem to get anything that anyone discusses on these forums.

Notice how like 3 people asked the same question? Yeah.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

The question I have to ask is, how many times were you spanked? More than once?

My siblings and I were spanked many times by our parents. We weren't necessarily "bad" kids. I'd say were were pretty much normal, but in those days (early 60s) spanking was the de facto method of discipline and we got it for pretty much everything we did wrong.

One has to wonder why the "bad" behavior didn't stop. We knew we were likely to be spanked for virtually any infraction, yet we did as kids do.

The bottom line is, spanking is ineffective.

There’s a very simple answer.

You seem to be implying that this tactic failed but truthfully spanking was infective for your parent because they didn’t properly understand how to, so likely any tactic your parents would have used would have also likely failed as they wouldn’t have done it properly.

Spanking is tool for discipline, but it has to used effectively. Just because I give a guy on the street a hammer doesn’t mean he’s now able to go build me a house. The tool doesn’t make you an expert on how to properly use it. Like you said, you were spanked for everything.

Many people have bought into a bad, stereotypical model of spanking, where out-of-control parents and religious fanatics beat children instead of disciplining them. Not surprisingly, they have rejected it entirely, assuming that since they don't know how to do it right, it shouldn't be done at all. "Extreme spanking" has domi­nated the discussion at the expense of more moderate practices of physical discipline. As a result, a huge segment of the population believes spanking is barbaric, basing that opinion on the abuses rather than the biblical model. If you're consistent with the actions of discipline, you'll find that your children have clear boundaries, and they're likely to have a clearer conscience and changed behavior.

If I was doing something bad as a kid it would start off with the count to three. If I continued it would result with a spanking and then followed up with a deeper chat about the situation and why a spanking was the result. That usually ended up with and sincere apology on my end and a “I won’t do that again”. It wasn’t just fear that lead me not to want to continue in the bad habits but it was also for respect for my parents. I didn’t want to disappoint them. They didn’t get enjoyment from spanking me, but it was there to set the boundaries, that behavior was unacceptable. And I didn’t often want cross that line because I understood that If you do something wrong, there are actions to pay for it.

I went on to apply that same mentality as I grew older. Actions have consequences for good and bad, If you’re honest and work hard, good things happen. If your lazy and don’t put in the effort you pay the consequences for that. (or you vote NDP and hope for gov’t assistance to get finally get you to that $15/hr wage)

[Mr. Ambien]

The question I have to ask is, how many times were you spanked? More than once?

My siblings and I were spanked many times by our parents. We weren't necessarily "bad" kids. I'd say were were pretty much normal, but in those days (early 60s) spanking was the de facto method of discipline and we got it for pretty much everything we did wrong.

One has to wonder why the "bad" behavior didn't stop. We knew we were likely to be spanked for virtually any infraction, yet we did as kids do.

The bottom line is, spanking is ineffective.

This is the point of your argument where you lose it. It's fine to say that spanking does not equal child abuse. In most cases, I'd agree.

However, this suggestion that parents who don't smoke are "pussified" and are sure to raise spoiled brats is just plain wrong.

As has been stated many times, (even by the pro-spanking crowd) there are many ways to discipline your child. Spanking is only one and IMHO, an ineffective one.

This thread isn't about all the other ways to discipline. It's specifically about spanking, as per the title.

And spanking is quite effective.

/inb4 "but I let my kids run the house in the middle of bum&^@# nowhere and they grew up fine" /proudparent

[HC20.0]

Usually I got grounded. Sent to my room, no videogames or tv. I did get spanked though when that wasn't enough, and I did deserve it most of the time. I would say yes, but only if you've exhausted the other forms of punishment and the child is still misbehaving. I know my girlfriend's youngest sibling likes to really push the rules and ignores his punishment, but will learn when his Mom gives him a smack on the butt.

[TOMapleLaughs]

The title also has "we're talking about child discipline", meaning other methods of discipline are on the table.

I find that there's no possible resolution to this debate because everyone has a different view on what proper spanking entails, and whether or not it is excessive. Since it's pretty inappropiate to discuss such minute details such as applied force, whether or not the pants are down, if screams are needed, etc. in this era, it is easier to boil it down to a simple 'yes' or 'no'.

imho as soon as teachers weren't allowed to do it, that meant parents should seek other ways of discipline as well. And there are many other effective methods. The keys again are swiftness to act on minor behavior issues that will become greater ones if left unchecked, not acting out of anger, and consistency. You do this and you'll find it completely uneccessary to lay a hand on your child.

This is however my opinion only, and if people find that spanking kids works for them, yay. But I am certainly glad i'm not going through these potentially traumatizing ordeals.

[RUPERTKBD]

This thread isn't about all the other ways to discipline. It's specifically about spanking, as per the title.

And spanking is quite effective.

/inb4 "but I let my kids run the house in the middle of bumfrack nowhere and they grew up fine" /proudparent

No, it isn't.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/06/why-spanking-doesnt-work/

A new analysis of two decades of research on the long-term effects of physical punishment in children concludes that spanking doesn’t work and can actually wreak havoc on kids’ long-term development, according to an article published Monday in the Canadian Medical Association Journal.

Studying physical punishment is difficult for researchers, who can’t randomly assign children to groups that are hit and those that aren’t. Instead, they follow children over many years, monitor how much they’re spanked, and then take measure of their aggression over time. “We find children who are physically punished get more aggressive over time and those who are not physically punished get less aggressive over time,” says Joan Durrant, the article’s lead author and a child clinical psychologist and professor of family social sciences at the University of Manitoba.

In fact, regardless of the age of the children or the size of the sample, none of more than 80 studies on the effects of physical punishment have succeeded in finding positive associations. “If someone were to hit us to change our behavior, it might harm our relationship with that person. We might feel resentful,” says Durrant. “It’s no different for children. It’s not a constructive thing to do.”

...and that's just one of many such studies.

I'll ignore the silly little attempt to disparage my home and my family.

Considering the source of an internet tough guy who pretends that he's packed and ready for anyone who dares to invade his castle and believes that spanking a child under one year of age, shows that he's not a wimp, (thus implying that those who disagree, are) it comes as little surprise.

[R3aL]

The derailment of the election thread should now be over. I spanked my daughter one time as a last resort. I hope to not have to do it again. My kids are 5 and 2 and only one of them had a spanking and I cried when doing it.

I believe there is always an alternative to spanking. Kids are motivated by new things now. I think taking away privelages, toys, etc. are all much more effective ways of disciplining a child. I do not think spanking should be used anymore.

Violence teaches and breeds violence.

I personally do not know anyone who was hit as a child who thinks it was beenficial. For most its actually a very sensitive memory.

My opinion, not a parent but I was a child, and when I become a parent I will not be okay with any form of physical punishment discipline, Everyones different, look at Adrian Peterson. Thats what he grew up with, is it right or wrong?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

No, it isn't.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/06/why-spanking-doesnt-work/

...and that's just one of many such studies.

I'll ignore the silly little attempt to disparage my home and my family.

Considering the source of an internet tough guy who pretends that he's packed and ready for anyone who dares to invade his castle and believes that spanking a child under one year of age, shows that he's not a wimp, (thus implying that those who disagree, are) it comes as little surprise.

Rebuttal

http://www.telegraph...tudy-finds.html

As I’ve stated before.

The problems is with these types of research articles is that they are not set in a controlled environment therefor the results will be ALWAYS skewed. How did each kid get spanked?, 2-3 smacks or hit till the kid is bleeding, is the kid being spanked for reasonable causes or are the parents abusing their authority. Are the alcoholic dads that beat their kids out of anger being lumped into these results. The same can be said about the opposite side of the argument. Not all parents that don’t believe in spanking will discipline their same way. Some parents chose work life over parenting life and rarely see their kids, studies show that kids with less involvement from parents tend get more involved in criminal activity. Since these parents don’t spank kids, can I lump them into the results of all parents that don’t spank their kids? No, and that’s market research 101. In order for the results to be accurate and decisive, the variables need to be held in controlled environment. Something that is impossible to achieve in regards to parenting styles because all parenting styles are different. You can’t lump all kids spanked into one grouping just as I can’t lump all kids not spanked into another.

Want another study

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/study-finds-that-violent-video-games-may-be-linked-to-aggressive-behaviour-10458614.html

And the funny thing is, all these results are saying kids are more aggressive? I guess being more aggressive behaviour is the definition of bad behaviour and failed parenting. Spanking has to be the reasoning to kids being more aggressive and it is the only conclusion to cause that. It’s not like could be any other reasoning from that house hold to create aggressive behavior? Perhaps an alcoholic parent or even a parent that’s not around. Nope from this study of 500-1000ish (the study didn’t say) people we can conclude spanking was the cause.

As I’ve said, the problem is, spanking is a tool and everyone that uses this tool is getting lumped into the same grouping. Do some parents abuse this power. You bet, some do, but why are they being lumping into the same grouping as a parents that use this tool effectively?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

This thread isn't about all the other ways to discipline. It's specifically about spanking, as per the title.

And spanking is quite effective.

/inb4 "but I let my kids run the house in the middle of bumfrack nowhere and they grew up fine" /proudparent

What is the definition of “turned out fine”?

Successful? Wealthy? Intelligent? Happy? Positively contributes to society?

Or is it simply they are:

Not in jail?, not pregnant at 15? only occasionally use hard drugs?

The definition of fine has many shades depending on the point of view.

[Mr. Ambien]

Rebuttal

http://www.telegraph...tudy-finds.html

As I’ve stated before.

The problems is with these types of research articles is that they are not set in a controlled environment therefor the results will be ALWAYS skewed. How did each kid get spanked?, 2-3 smacks or hit till the kid is bleeding, is the kid being spanked for reasonable causes or are the parents abusing their authority. Are the alcoholic dads that beat their kids out of anger being lumped into these results. The same can be said about the opposite side of the argument. Not all parents that don’t believe in spanking will discipline their same way. Some parents chose work life over parenting life and rarely see their kids, studies show that kids with less involvement from parents tend get more involved in criminal activity. Since these parents don’t spank kids, can I lump them into the results of all parents that don’t spank their kids? No, and that’s market research 101. In order for the results to be accurate and decisive, the variables need to be held in controlled environment. Something that is impossible to achieve in regards to parenting styles because all parenting styles are different. You can’t lump all kids spanked into one grouping just as I can’t lump all kids not spanked into another.

Want another study

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/study-finds-that-violent-video-games-may-be-linked-to-aggressive-behaviour-10458614.html

And the funny thing is, all these results are saying kids are more aggressive? I guess being more aggressive behaviour is the definition of bad behaviour and failed parenting. Spanking has to be the reasoning to kids being more aggressive and it is the only conclusion to cause that. It’s not like could be any other reasoning from that house hold to create aggressive behavior? Perhaps an alcoholic parent or even a parent that’s not around. Nope from this study of 500-1000ish (the study didn’t say) people we can conclude spanking was the cause.

As I’ve said, the problem is, spanking is a tool and everyone that uses this tool is getting lumped into the same grouping. Do some parents abuse this power. You bet, some do, but why are they being lumping into the same grouping as a parents that use this tool effectively?

But I spent a whole 10 seconds searching google for "spanking doesn't work" and "study" and cut and paste a link I never read.. why do you hate science so much?

[RUPERTKBD]

^ First of all, that study is over five years old and is based on a one-time questionnaire carried out by a "researcher" at an American Christian College.

The research questioned 179 teenagers about how often they were smacked as children and how old they were when they were last spanked.

Their answers were then compared with information they gave about their behaviour that could have been affected by smacking.

It also doesn't say that spanking works, it says that there is "Insufficient evidence to deny parents the freedom to determine how their children should be punished".

Sounds to me like it's more concerned with "protecting rights" than it is finding the truth.

The article I posted is more recent by two years and is the result of 2 decades of multiple studies, compiled and then published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal.

Not all studies are created equal.

I stand by my statement that this isn't a "tool" that can be used effectively.

[RUPERTKBD]

But I spent a whole 10 seconds searching google for "spanking doesn't work" and "study" and cut and paste a link I never read.. why do you hate science so much?

Ah. I wondered how long it would take Mr. Tough Guy "I love guns and I spank my 11 month old" to weigh in with yet another "look at how badass I am" quote.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

^ First of all, that study is over five years old and is based on a one-time questionnaire carried out by a "researcher" at an American Christian College.

It also doesn't say that spanking works, it says that there is "Insufficient evidence to deny parents the freedom to determine how their children should be punished".

Sounds to me like it's more concerned with "protecting rights" than it is finding the truth.

The article I posted is more recent by two years and is the result of 2 decades of multiple studies, compiled and then published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal.

Not all studies are created equal.

I stand by my statement that this isn't a "tool" that can be used effectively.

So your parents spanked you? Is there something wrong with the way you turned out?

As you stated, just because your parents didn’t use this tool effectively doesn’t mean you can lump them into the group of parents that do properly spank their children. I’ve seen parents who are completely against spanking and they let their kids run wild. Cussing out their parents and teachers, picking on other children, having no respect for authority and later in life getting in trouble with the law. Does that mean I can lump them into the same grouping as all non-spankers? Can I also now reach a conclusion that non spanking results in more convicts?

No you can’t, because not all non spanking parents are that lazy to raising their children. The problem that you are having understanding is, there is more than one way to properly raise your child and there is no right or wrong way. The same people who abuse their authority and improperly spank their kids (as you described your parents) are just lazy parents in general, It really doesn’t have to do with whether or not they spanked their kids. If they didn’t spank their kids, they still would have turned out that way, because parenting involves effort and communication. The same lack of effort and communications they put into their spanking methods would have been the same had they used non spanking methods, subpar.

Spanking doesn’t equal parenting. Spanking is a just tool, that when properly used helps shape a child. So yes, Spanking can be effective, to raise kids, it is the only way, not at all. There are other effective ways to parent, “if done properly”.

I really don’t know if I can simplify it any more than that.

Buying a hammer doesn’t make me a builder. The Hammer is a tool that helps me build, Is it the only way? No a screwdriver could technically work as well.

[Chalky]

I don't think general spanking has any effect on how kids turn out. It is a means to exact punishment. If the spanking is excessive or borders abuse then it can have a negative effect I'm sure. It certainly never worked on me, I always preferred the physical pain to the mental pain of withholding TV or Nintendo...or the car in my teen years. The "I was spanked and I tuned out fine" argument is using a correlation that is not provable. My friend was abused physically and mentally by an addict father and he turned out fine as well. Another friend had great parents who recognized their kid had behavioral issues and did everything they could to keep him on the straight and narrow to no avail. There isn't one strategy that works for all kids. I have no issue with reasonable physical corrections, but I don't do it, most likely because it didn't work on me.

Not spanking your child doesn't mean they will turn out bad any more than spanking them will. Just because you choose a parenting method doesn't make it right or wrong, it's just what you do.

One thing is for sure though, spanking an 11 month old child is absolutely useless. IMO it's irresponsible parenting and borderline abuse. I have no respect for anyone who would try and justify it. However, if you did it, felt bad and learned from it, then I'd applaud you. Parenting can be as challenging and frustrating as it is rewarding.

[RUPERTKBD]

So your parents spanked you? Is there something wrong with the way you turned out?

No. I'm saying that it didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

[RUPERTKBD]

Spanking doesn’t equal parenting. Spanking is a just tool, that when properly used helps shape a child. So yes, Spanking can be effective, to raise kids, it is the only way, not at all. There are other effective ways to parent, “if done properly”.

I really don’t know if I can simplify it any more than that.

Buying a hammer doesn’t make me a builder. The Hammer is a tool that helps me build, Is it the only way? No a screwdriver could technically work as well.

No need to simplify anything. I understand exactly what you're trying to say and I disagree with it (as well as that poor example of a "study" that you posted)

The bolded parts of you post are what I disagree with. It is not a tool that helps shape a child in any positive manner and it is not effective.

[aGENT]

People are free to let their kids run the household and be pussified parents if they choose, it's rather important to me at an early age that my kids understand the importance of listening to their parents and learning how to behave in society. If that ruffles the feathers of some anti-spanking ideologue, oh well for them.

I reject your logical fallacy that parents against hitting their children 'let their children run the house' or are 'pussified'. Other methods may require a lot more actual parenting but they're just as, (arguably much more) effective. And if hitting a small child is what you define as 'tough'...

So your parents spanked you? Is there something wrong with the way you turned out?

Why is that even a question? I was spanked occasionally as a child and I like to think I turned out alright but that doesn't mean my parents couldn't have handled discipline in a healthier, less harmful manner that would have been more effective.

Is there something you have against evolving? Learning new/better things?

[inane]

I reject your logical fallacy that parents against hitting their children 'let their children run the house' or are 'pussified'. Other methods may require a lot more actual parenting but they're just as, (arguably much more) effective. And if hitting a small child is what you define as 'tough'...

Why is that even a question? I was spanked occasionally as a child and I like to think I turned out alright but that doesn't mean my parents couldn't have handled discipline in a healthier, less harmful manner that would have been more effective.

Is there something you have against evolving? Learning new/better things?

Yes, his whole 'if you're not dominating you're failing' is just cowardly bullying. It would be funny if he didn't have a kid.

Back in my day we got a belt to the ass, walked 10 miles in the snow with burlap sacks on our feet and used leaches to cure disease and I turned out just fine! Screw this new fangled bs!