Can We Start Cutting Vey A Little Slack?

[Alflives]

4 hours ago, Baggins said:

We agree on something?

What, that you're nasty and furry footed?  Of course!  So am I! (but I'm cute furry)

[Yukoncanuck87]

21 hours ago, Stormriders said:

And that is another falsity, although McCann's weakness is certainly FOs and he has to get better, [although he is only 19 and in his 1st year of pro vs. 24 and in his 5th season].  Vey's FO is 46.7% vs. McCann's 34.5%, so on the surface it looks like Vey is a lot better than McCann.  But look at the actual numbers behind this.  Say on average they have 14 FO a night, Vey wins 7 and McCann wins 5, that's only a difference of 2 a night, not all the significant, but still something.  Now remember that on two occasions for multiple games, McCann played on the 1st line against much tougher competition, meaning he up against the best competition.

If you still think Vey is so much better, since being called up, of the 12 nights they played the same games, McCann's FO % was better than Vey's 4 times, so in 8 of the 12 games they each beat the other 4 times.

Vey on his own in 16 games, has 7 of those games at under 40%, and 5 of those were under 35%.  So lets not pretend that Vey is that great on FOs.  He is improving, but still an area of weakness in his game as well.

Vey's a sophomore to the NHL bud.

[Stormriders]

3 hours ago, Yukoncanuck87 said:

Vey's a sophomore to the NHL bud.

Sorry, is he not in his 5th year as a pro? Who said NHL?  And what does that have to do with the 'facts' I quoted disputing your comments 'Except vey can win face offs McCann can't.'?

 Your statement is incorrect and baseless. Vey is not much better if at all than McCann when taking all things into consideration. Both are not good and need to improve. 

[Yukoncanuck87]

[Baggins]

3 hours ago, Stormriders said:

Sorry, is he not in his 5th year as a pro? Who said NHL?  And what does that have to do with the 'facts' I quoted disputing your comments 'Except vey can win face offs McCann can't.'?

 Your statement is incorrect and baseless. Vey is not much better if at all than McCann when taking all things into consideration. Both are not good and need to improve. 

Does 5 years as a pro change the fact Vey was an NHL rookie last year and a sophmore this year? The AHL is not the NHL. Players don't develop same pace. Just because McCann is younger does not exclude Vey from developing into a quality NHL player. Nor does it guarantee McCann will. It doesn't matter how you get to the NHL, or long it takes to get to the NHL, it's how you progress when you get there.

[Stormriders]

29 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Does 5 years as a pro change the fact Vey was an NHL rookie last year and a sophmore this year? The AHL is not the NHL. Players don't develop same pace. Just because McCann is younger does not exclude Vey from developing into a quality NHL player. Nor does it guarantee McCann will. It doesn't matter how you get to the NHL, or long it takes to get to the NHL, it's how you progress when you get there.

No it doesn't, nor did I say it did.  And where did I say that Vey wouldn't develop into an NHL player? Stop trying to put words in my mouth to create an argument. 

 The subject I responded to was  SOLELY about faceoffs,  nothing more.  If you want to dispute what I said about Vey and McCann with respect to that, great, because that is ALL I addressed.  Here is what I said in response to his comment.

On 1/27/2016 at 3:30 PM, Stormriders said:

And that is another falsity, although McCann's weakness is certainly FOs and he has to get better, [although he is only 19 and in his 1st year of pro vs. 24 and in his 5th season].  Vey's FO is 46.7% vs. McCann's 34.5%, so on the surface it looks like Vey is a lot better than McCann.  But look at the actual numbers behind this.  Say on average they have 14 FO a night, Vey wins 7 and McCann wins 5, that's only a difference of 2 a night, not all the significant, but still something.  Now remember that on two occasions for multiple games, McCann played on the 1st line against much tougher competition, meaning he up against the best competition.

If you still think Vey is so much better, since being called up, of the 12 nights they played the same games, McCann's FO % was better than Vey's 4 times, so in 8 of the 12 games they each beat the other 4 times.

Vey on his own in 16 games, has 7 of those games at under 40%, and 5 of those were under 35%.  So lets not pretend that Vey is that great on FOs.  He is improving, but still an area of weakness in his game as well.

[Baggins]

1 minute ago, Stormriders said:

No it doesn't, nor did I say it did.  And where did I say that Vey wouldn't develop into an NHL player? Stop trying to put words in my mouth to create an argument. 

 The subject I responded to was  SOLELY about faceoffs,  nothing more.  If you want to dispute what I said about Vey and McCann with respect to that, great, because that is ALL I addressed.

You did say "5 years pro" indicating experience while comparing ability. The AHL isn't the NHL.I simply added to that saying experience and age doesn't matter when you actually get to the NHL. It's how you develop when you get there.

[Stormriders]

10 minutes ago, Baggins said:

You did say "5 years pro" indicating experience while comparing ability. The AHL isn't the NHL.I simply added to that saying experience and age doesn't matter when you actually get to the NHL. It's how you develop when you get there.

Yes I did, but more relating to McCann, who I agreed is weak on FOs, but has only a half year as a pro and right from junior.  'although McCann's weakness is certainly FOs and he has to get better, [although he is only 19 and in his 1st year of pro vs. 24 and in his 5th season]'.  So I expect McCann will get better with more pro experience.  Vey may get better in FOs, and is a little better this year, but most forwards incremental improvement has happened by the time they are 24/25, not always but most times.  I didn't say anything direct that Vey will not and anything from that point on, I think you are reading into it.

With more experience, most people expect ability to increase and there is a correlation.  So if a player has 5 years of pro, regardless of where, then yes they should have improved their ability.  And if they haven't, they wouldn't be in the NHL.

But back to the point of what Yukoncanuck87 said, 'Except vey can win face offs McCann can't.'  That is all I disagreed with because one is not that better than the other, both their records are weak, and they both need to improve.

[Baggins]

3 hours ago, Stormriders said:

Yes I did, but more relating to McCann, who I agreed is weak on FOs, but has only a half year as a pro and right from junior.  'although McCann's weakness is certainly FOs and he has to get better, [although he is only 19 and in his 1st year of pro vs. 24 and in his 5th season]'.  So I expect McCann will get better with more pro experience.  Vey may get better in FOs, and is a little better this year, but most forwards incremental improvement has happened by the time they are 24/25, not always but most times.  I didn't say anything direct that Vey will not and anything from that point on, I think you are reading into it.

With more experience, most people expect ability to increase and there is a correlation.  So if a player has 5 years of pro, regardless of where, then yes they should have improved their ability.  And if they haven't, they wouldn't be in the NHL.

But back to the point of what Yukoncanuck87 said, 'Except vey can win face offs McCann can't.'  That is all I disagreed with because one is not that better than the other, both their records are weak, and they both need to improve.

Actual Vey has gotten much better over last year. Vey started last year where McCann currently is (low 30's) and finished the season around 43%. Meaning he raised his percentage by 10 % as the season progressed. Not exactly easy to do in the long haul. Yet he's doing so again this stint starting around 41% after 2 games and raising it over 46% currently. McCann on the other hand hasn't progressed much at all since the beginning of the season. McCann would need to win approx 58% of his faceoffs for the rest of the season to finish around 44%. I don't see that happening.

Like most, regardless of age, there's a learning curve when arriving in the NHL. Vey has likely shown more progress on faceoffs because he is older and the AHL experience has helped as well.

During the Boston game WD had Vey taking McCanns faceoffs in our D zone and then switching off with McCann when the puck was out of the d-zone. Vey's line has also been playing a more defensive role allowing Horvats line to take a more offensive role. This could be what Yukon was referring too. Vey has been given more responsibility and it's because he's better at certain areas of the game than McCann. Faceoffs being one of them.

And I'll say it again one final time, the AHL isn't the NHL. Although it's better than junior it's still not the NHL.There's a lot of players in the AHL that will never see the NHL. The competition is not the same.

[mll]

3 hours ago, Baggins said:

Actual Vey has gotten much better over last year. Vey started last year where McCann currently is (low 30's) and finished the season around 43%. Meaning he raised his percentage by 10 % as the season progressed. Not exactly easy to do in the long haul. Yet he's doing so again this stint starting around 41% after 2 games and raising it over 46% currently. McCann on the other hand hasn't progressed much at all since the beginning of the season. McCann would need to win approx 58% of his faceoffs for the rest of the season to finish around 44%. I don't see that happening.

Like most, regardless of age, there's a learning curve when arriving in the NHL. Vey has likely shown more progress on faceoffs because he is older and the AHL experience has helped as well.

During the Boston game WD had Vey taking McCanns faceoffs in our D zone and then switching off with McCann when the puck was out of the d-zone. Vey's line has also been playing a more defensive role allowing Horvats line to take a more offensive role. This could be what Yukon was referring too. Vey has been given more responsibility and it's because he's better at certain areas of the game than McCann. Faceoffs being one of them.

And I'll say it again one final time, the AHL isn't the NHL. Although it's better than junior it's still not the NHL.There's a lot of players in the AHL that will never see the NHL. The competition is not the same.

I am not sure that's true.  The ZS% of Horvat and Baertschi hasn't really changed since Vey made the team - Horvat is around 42% and Baertschi is around 46%.  Not saying that Vey hasn't taken D-zone face-offs but more that it has more likely allowed to give more o-zone starts to the 1st and 4th lines instead.  Although at times with WillieD it looks more like there's no real strategy beyond it's this line's turn to hit the ice.

If you look at the last game - Baertschi is lowest at 17%, Horvat next at 29% while Vey is at 67% and Etem 71%.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Zone starts are fairly weighted into the useless info category when virtually every line now can't execute a play against decent competition.  When you have to wait 12min stretches for a shot on net, yeah...

Vey will never be known as a defensive stud.  Too easy to brush off.  He'll be a 2nd or 3rd line playmaker, who'll need Toffoli and Pearson-types to succeed.  This is not a knock on him at all.  It's a reasonable expectation at this point.  He's 24, and has 1 goal in 16gp.

Cliff Ronning, who was a ppg player at Vey's age, played better with big wingers.  It's a classic move to put smallish playmakers with big wingers.  The league isn't as tough now overall, so with Vey sheltering should be easier, but here's hoping we get a cup-winning, stacked team regardless of who's in it.  If Vey's there in this dream future of mine, yay.

On that note, who remembers Cliffy's debut here?  Including the 'Holy Crap' playoff?  That was insane.

 

 

Hiyo!

[cabinessence]

On 1/28/2016 at 8:34 AM, NameFaker said:

No way, man. Raymond would fall down every game, Baer maybe falls once every three games, and not because he's doing some stupid fly-by crap in the corner like Raymond, but because he's being pressured by the D.

Kramer: And Newman gave you money too. I didn't even meet this guy. We trusted you.

Jerry: Look, it doesn't necessarily mean anything yet, it just means he was sniffing.

Kramer: Well, what else? Was he nervous? Did he use a lot of slang? Did he use the word 'man'?

Jerry: No, he didn't use 'man'.

[Fred65]

I can't think of a solution but Vey along with Baertschi have a piece missing from their hockey portfolio. Maybe not hard enough on the puck, can depossesed too easy .....??? not sure what it is but they're not complete. One thing i don't like from either is there seems to be momentary let up when they fail on a play. Some thing like you see in Bantam kids, their heads go down and take a moment ( which is all that an oppoent needs to exploit ) before they snap back to action...not sure if that's it but some unidentified negative is in their game.   Their skill is not in question

[Alflives]

NO!

[Nucksfollower1983]

On ‎27‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 8:59 PM, Boddy604 said:

Aside from that own goal, Vey has been very good and looks to be getting better since he came back.

Good on faceoffs, getting more aggressive, creating turnovers, cycling the puck well, and most importantly, he doesnt look like a defensive liability anymore.

Totally different from the guy we saw last season.

That Baertschi, Horvat, Vey powerplay unit was beautiful too. 

Trade Vrbata, give his spot to Vey. Put Sutter with the twins, keep Vey on the 3rd. Idk, he looks like he deserves to be here. Especially if it let's us move out Vrbata easier.

Linden Vey, is this you?

[Cowardrobertford]

4 hours ago, Fred65 said:

I can't think of a solution but Vey along with Baertschi have a piece missing from their hockey portfolio. Maybe not hard enough on the puck, can depossesed too easy .....??? not sure what it is but they're not complete. One thing i don't like from either is there seems to be momentary let up when they fail on a play. Some thing like you see in Bantam kids, their heads go down and take a moment ( which is all that an oppoent needs to exploit ) before they snap back to action...not sure if that's it but some unidentified negative is in their game.   Their skill is not in question

Mindset, perhaps

[Boddy604]

7 minutes ago, Cowardrobertford said:

Mindset, perhaps

With Baertschi, this is the 1st time he's really being taken seriously as an NHL player. The increase in confidence from September to now is visible. Vey has improved and I think he will continue to improve I just don't know how interested management is in investing a 3rd year into him with McCann competing for a spot too. Until he's resigned, we won't know. Etem is another Baertschi in my opinion, his confidence is in the gutter from being given up on twice in the last year. He started good but he's playing perimeter again which was his own criticism when he came here. That's a cause for concern but I expect time will build that. Especially if he gets a chance to play with Horvat or Sutter who, in my opinion, are more suited to the way he plays cuz they're bigger and stronger than Vey.

[mll]

Management moved Bonino because of his lack of footspeed - is Vey really that much faster?

He plays a skilled game but I just don't see any high end skills and I've never heard the hockey minds such as McKenzie, Ferraro rave about his potential.  I always find interesting to follow other teams feed and Vey really never really gets a mention - they always highlight the promising players.  I also find revealing how management never talks him up like they do for other young players on the team - it's like they've forgotten about him.  Only WillieD talks about him...

To his credit Vey himself said at the start of the season that he was getting opportunities that he did not earn and it doesn't look like a lot has changed this year either.   This might be the case where the GM might just need to take a player away from the coach - his usage is just not in adequation with what he brings.

I also don't see where he fits in the lineup.  Putting Sutter on the Sedins' wing to accommodate Vey is not helping Horvat and his heavy load against tougher competition. 

[canuck2288]

Vey is useless and anyone who honestly thinks he will be a core part of a cup challenging quality team is sadly mistaken.

He is only here because of our idiot coach and when he gets the boot Vey won't be far behind.

Willie should learn how to manage a basic line changes and worry less about playing favourites. 

[cuporbust]