Sven Baertschi | LW

[Alflives]

16 hours ago, DontMessMe said:

So bear cheese is worth a hmm 6th rounder? Tbh, I dont see Goldy worth more than a 4th. Why? He needs waivers next year 

Ironically, Goldy might have more value is we sent him down to Utica in October, and he cleared waivers.  Then any team trading for him wouldn't have to have him clear, and would have him in the minors for a call up.  Still, I agree with you though.  At best either of those two guys is worth (at most) a late round pick.

[kloubek]

I really don't understand why Baertschi gets all the hate. 45 points (extrapolated) really isn't bad at all and he has potential to improve.  He's also shown in the last couple of years to be working on other aspects of his game, and is far better defensively than he used to be.

 

Does he remain 1 dimensional?  Yeah, somewhat, but he's 45 points is actually on the highish end of average 2nd line scoring. But yet you guys claim he isn't worth anything. 

 

I'll tell you what - he was a steal for a 2nd, and his value is higher now than it was back then.  IMO, he's worth a late 1st considering the chances of a late 1st round pick playing in the NHL, let alone a 2nd liner or better. I wish I had the graph I found online before, but it basically showed that the chances of a late 1st rounder being a top six player wasn't really that great.  So would a GM rather take a guy who is already scoring at a 2nd line pace and has a little upside, or would he rather roll the dice?  I guess it limits the potential GMs that would be interested, but I gotta believe there are some out there who would rather have the sure thing.

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 minutes ago, kloubek said:

I really don't understand why Baertschi gets all the hate. 45 points (extrapolated) really isn't bad at all and he has potential to improve.  He's also shown in the last couple of years to be working on other aspects of his game, and is far better defensively than he used to be.

 

Does he remain 1 dimensional?  Yeah, somewhat, but he's 45 points is actually on the highish end of average 2nd line scoring. But yet you guys claim he isn't worth anything. 

 

I'll tell you what - he was a steal for a 2nd, and his value is higher now than it was back then.  IMO, he's worth a late 1st considering the chances of a late 1st round pick playing in the NHL, let alone a 2nd liner or better. I wish I had the graph I found online before, but it basically showed that the chances of a late 1st rounder being a top six player wasn't really that great.  So would a GM rather take a guy who is already scoring at a 2nd line pace and has a little upside, or would he rather roll the dice?  I guess it limits the potential GMs that would be interested, but I gotta believe there are some out there who would rather have the sure thing.

I tend to agree with you on this kloubek

 

My view on Baertschi, is his value is probably somewhere in the 26 to 38 OA value, but then we exclude those teams that are high second teams, that are reaching for falling late 1st rounder's at the draft, and exclude those hard to the cap, and we are probably left with maybe 2 or 3 teams that would give us full price.

 

The other thing that might influence his value, is that we are his 2nd team, the trading team, would then be his 3rd.....to me that devalues him, as 2 teams have given up on him, so even though I agree with you, that his value in in a glass bottle may be, that 26 to 38 OA spot, he may end up being more of a late 2nd to a early 3rd, which would probably bring more teams back into it.

 

The package I see happening to get the value you are looking at is probably a package deal, of Hutton and Baertschi, which probably brings it back down into the area, of where you want........

 

Giving up 2 young players, causes me heart burn, so maybe there is another way, such as taking on a bad contract, and packaging him with that, or part of a larger trade......

 

I don't think Benning's comments earlier this week, help his trade value

 

My gut tells me that Benning might be able to get a late 2nd for him.........50 OA to 62 OA..........(if he plays in Pittsburgh he is a 30 goal scorer, that wins the cup, so it matters who takes him, and who he plays with...........)

 

Maybe a sign and trade at 50% on a cap retained $2,250,000 contract over 3 years, makes him a better target???????  and gets you take late 1st as well....pretty cheap for a possible 20 goal, 40 point player. (Probably what I would do, to get that 1st)

 

I guess that is for Benning to figure out...............

[kloubek]

26 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

I tend to agree with you on this kloubek

 

My view on Baertschi, is his value is probably somewhere in the 26 to 38 OA value, but then we exclude those teams that are high second teams, that are reaching for falling late 1st rounder's at the draft, and exclude those hard to the cap, and we are probably left with maybe 2 or 3 teams that would give us full price.

 

The other thing that might influence his value, is that we are his 2nd team, the trading team, would then be his 3rd.....to me that devalues him, as 2 teams have given up on him, so even though I agree with you, that his value in in a glass bottle may be, that 26 to 38 OA spot, he may end up being more of a late 2nd to a early 3rd, which would probably bring more teams back into it.

 

The package I see happening to get the value you are looking at is probably a package deal, of Hutton and Baertschi, which probably brings it back down into the area, of where you want........

 

Giving up 2 young players, causes me heart burn, so maybe there is another way, such as taking on a bad contract, and packaging him with that, or part of a larger trade......

 

I don't think Benning's comments earlier this week, help his trade value

 

My gut tells me that Benning might be able to get a late 2nd for him.........50 OA to 62 OA..........(if he plays in Pittsburgh he is a 30 goal scorer, that wins the cup, so it matters who takes him, and who he plays with...........)

 

Maybe a sign and trade at 50% on a cap retained $2,250,000 contract over 3 years, makes him a better target???????  and gets you take late 1st as well....pretty cheap for a possible 20 goal, 40 point player. (Probably what I would do, to get that 1st)

 

I guess that is for Benning to figure out...............

I'm not sure that it's a matter of "giving up" on him, or even the perception of such.  Although I firmly believe he IS a 2nd liner, we have a lot of talent coming through the pipe and if a guy like Lind can also be a 2nd liner, he gives us a more cerebral and physical/agitating game than Baertschi ever could so we simply have better options.  But this doesn't mean that just because he will likely be traded that he's a bad player.  Hey, Naslund got traded early in his career. Bertuzzi as well.  These were up and coming guys and ended up as franchise players.  There is no insult to being traded (try to tell a player that), but it just means that the team is looking for other elements to add to their team, and perhaps the team they trade with have those elements.  Or perhaps the team is like ours - rebuilding, and needing draft picks to restock the core. Or perhaps we trade for guy with less scoring but he's a physical beast.  

 

You say 26 to 38, but I'd give him a narrower yet higher range.  I'd say 22-30 OA would be an appropriate return given his current show of scoring and moderate upside.

 

I agree with the rest of what you say though; I believe he's probably a package deal, and that there are indeed limited teams that would be interested in such a trade.  Also that Benning's comments aren't going to help his value (AT ALL).

While I think we need to focus on our d more than anything, I think if it was a 1-for-1 trade it would be nice to target a guy like Boone Jenner.  He has shown a bit less scoring, but he could be a 2nd liner in the short term, and is a *great* 3rd liner once our more taleneted young guys fill out the top 6.

[JustABandwagoner]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Ironically, Goldy might have more value is we sent him down to Utica in October, and he cleared waivers.  Then any team trading for him wouldn't have to have him clear, and would have him in the minors for a call up.  Still, I agree with you though.  At best either of those two guys is worth (at most) a late round pick.

I think someone will claim Goldy 100%. See Arizona. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, DontMessMe said:

I think someone will claim Goldy 100%. See Arizona. 

If that's the case, he (likely) has zero value.  Guys needing waivers (who aren't good enough to crack a line-up) just don't carry value, do they?

[JM_]

Just now, DontMessMe said:

I think someone will claim Goldy 100%. See Arizona. 

he'd be claimed, he'd be a gift from the hockey gods. @Alflives He's playing much better now. I don't know if you heard Cull on 650 the other day but he was glowing about Goldy's effort level now. We're really lucky that Larionov is the kids agent and Cull is putting him in good situations for his growth. I'd much prefer to trade Baer than lose Goldobin. 

[JustABandwagoner]

Just now, Jimmy McGill said:

he'd be claimed, he'd be a gift from the hockey gods. @Alflives He's playing much better now. I don't know if you heard Cull on 650 the other day but he was glowing about Goldy's effort level now. We're really lucky that Larionov is the kids agent and Cull is putting him in good situations for his growth. I'd much prefer to trade Baer than lose Goldobin. 

If given an option, I rather give bear cheese away for FREE(7th rd pick)  then lose goldobin. 

[aGENT]

33 minutes ago, kloubek said:

I'm not sure that it's a matter of "giving up" on him, or even the perception of such.  Although I firmly believe he IS a 2nd liner, we have a lot of talent coming through the pipe and if a guy like Lind can also be a 2nd liner, he gives us a more cerebral and physical/agitating game than Baertschi ever could so we simply have better options.  But this doesn't mean that just because he will likely be traded that he's a bad player.  Hey, Naslund got traded early in his career. Bertuzzi as well.  These were up and coming guys and ended up as franchise players.  There is no insult to being traded (try to tell a player that), but it just means that the team is looking for other elements to add to their team, and perhaps the team they trade with have those elements.  Or perhaps the team is like ours - rebuilding, and needing draft picks to restock the core. Or perhaps we trade for guy with less scoring but he's a physical beast.  

 

You say 26 to 38, but I'd give him a narrower yet higher range.  I'd say 22-30 OA would be an appropriate return given his current show of scoring and moderate upside.

 

I agree with the rest of what you say though; I believe he's probably a package deal, and that there are indeed limited teams that would be interested in such a trade.  Also that Benning's comments aren't going to help his value (AT ALL).

While I think we need to focus on our d more than anything, I think if it was a 1-for-1 trade it would be nice to target a guy like Boone Jenner.  He has shown a bit less scoring, but he could be a 2nd liner in the short term, and is a *great* 3rd liner once our more taleneted young guys fill out the top 6.

I largely agree with this though I don't think Benning's comments remotely have any effect on his value.

 

Unless you think other teams management and pro scouts are ignorant morons?

 

 

[JustABandwagoner]

Just now, aGENT said:

I largely agree with this though I don't think Benning's comments remotely have any effect on his value.

 

Unless you think other teams management and pro scouts are ignorant morons?

 

 

Yes, I firmly believe other team management are ignorant morons. We all try to de-value other team players to be able to acquire them for cheaper. I dont see anything wrong with that tbh. 

[aGENT]

Baer's 'problem' isn't his level of play/ability. It's that he's increasingly going to be squeezed by younger, cheaper players with some combination of higher ceilings, more diverse skill sets etc.

 

He's EXACTLY the type of player you move/package to a playoff team if you're rebuilding. He's in his prime and he's cheap, depth, proven scoring.

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

he'd be claimed, he'd be a gift from the hockey gods. @Alflives He's playing much better now. I don't know if you heard Cull on 650 the other day but he was glowing about Goldy's effort level now. We're really lucky that Larionov is the kids agent and Cull is putting him in good situations for his growth. I'd much prefer to trade Baer than lose Goldobin. 

 

4 minutes ago, DontMessMe said:

If given an option, I rather give bear cheese away for FREE(7th rd pick)  then lose goldobin. 

It's bye...bye to Baer then.  Plus, Goldy is still kind of young. He still looks like a little boy.  He's hard not to like, so I hope he does improve too.

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Alflives

[JM_]

1 minute ago, DontMessMe said:

If given an option, I rather give bear cheese away for FREE(7th rd pick)  then lose goldobin. 

it'll be interesting to see what happens with Baer. If I'm understanding arbitration rules properly, I think there's a short window after the SCFs are over where the Canucks can initiate salary arbitration vs waiting for Baer to request it. If they do that then I could see Baer being shopped pretty hard leading up to the draft. 

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

 

It's bye...bye to Baer then.  Plus, Goldy is still kind of young. He still looks like a little boy.  He's hard not to like, so I hope he does improve too.

 

Baer has a good shot but I think Goldy's is better, and might be a better passer too. And his age fits the rebuild better. Goldy showed up with that lazy label (well earned) but listening to Cull talk about him makes me think the kids turned the corner. If he was ever going to be lazy now is the time, he's got another year on his deal, the regular season is over, but he's still making the effort. Bodes well imo. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

Baer has a good shot but I think Goldy's is better, and might be a better passer too. And his age fits the rebuild better. Goldy showed up with that lazy label (well earned) but listening to Cull talk about him makes me think the kids turned the corner. If he was ever going to be lazy now is the time, he's got another year on his deal, the regular season is over, but he's still making the effort. Bodes well imo. 

I hope Goldy gets caught up in the emotion of the Utica playoffs.  I think he could be a BIG difference maker for their team, if he gets a burr under his saddle.

[kloubek]

16 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I largely agree with this though I don't think Benning's comments remotely have any effect on his value.

 

Unless you think other teams management and pro scouts are ignorant morons?

 

 

It's not so much that, but let's put it in a different context.

 

You go to buy a car.  You've had your heart set on a Camaro V6 because you can't afford the "big boy".  By all rights, the performance stats from the 300hp engine are quite good with 0-60 in just over 5 seconds.  When you get there, the owner says "yeah, it didn't really work for me.  Feels gutless compared to the V8, and didn't give me the performance I expected from 300hp.  Time to move on.".  Does this encourage you to buy, or do you not care because you've done your own homework?

Edit:I suppose this analogy only works for car guys....  

Edited April 19, 2018 by kloubek

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

21 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Baer's 'problem' isn't his level of play/ability. It's that he's increasingly going to be squeezed by younger, cheaper players with some combination of higher ceilings, more diverse skill sets etc.

 

He's EXACTLY the type of player you move/package to a playoff team if you're rebuilding. He's in his prime and he's cheap, depth, proven scoring.

Precisely my thoughts too.  With the emphasis on bringing in younger talent, and with an excess on wing, Baertschi looks to be an ideal candidate to be moved.

 

But wonder if his shoulder injury throws a wrench into that. Does he have to clear a physical or have a medical evaluation to be traded?

[coastal.view]

so baer has little to no value ?  really

and who exactly is our top left winger presently?

i see no one else with any sort of a track record on this team

[aGENT]

19 minutes ago, kloubek said:

It's not so much that, but let's put it in a different context.

 

You go to buy a car.  You've had your heart set on a Camaro V6 because you can't afford the "big boy".  By all rights, the performance stats from the 300hp engine are quite good with 0-60 in just over 5 seconds.  When you get there, the owner says "yeah, it didn't really work for me.  Feels gutless compared to the V8, and didn't give me the performance I expected from 300hp.  Time to move on.".  Does this encourage you to buy, or do you not care because you've done your own homework?

Edit:I suppose this analogy only works for car guys....  

Hockey players aren't cars.

 

And even if they were, you're frankly an idiot for listening to anything a car salesman tells you anyway 

 

NHL GM's and their pro scouts are not morons. They have a VERY good idea of what type of player Baer is, 'V6' or otherwise.

Edited April 19, 2018 by aGENT

[JustABandwagoner]

2 hours ago, coastal.view said:

so baer has little to no value ?  really

and who exactly is our top left winger presently?

i see no one else with any sort of a track record on this team

Doesn't matter. We're tanking to get Hughes