SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 It's not a coincidence. His best games have been this one (9:50), the game against LA (14:54) and his debut against COL (8:52), every other game he's played less than 8 minutes & he hasn't been quite as good. Again, its not a coincidence, that's all I'll say.Just to play devil's advocate a bit, it might also be that Horvat has been given more minutes in the games where WD has felt he's played well and has cut back on minutes when the coach has seen things he didn't like in Bo's game. It could be a "chicken or the egg" kinda deal and, as much as I like Horvat, I'm slightly inclined to give Willie the benefit of the doubt here. Ultimately, I really believe that the coach will give minutes to the guys he feels are playing their best hockey and who give the team a better chance to win on any given night. When Horvat is one of those players, more so than other options in the lineup, I believe Desjardins will give him the minutes he deserves, and vice versa. As much as I've wanted Bo to play more than he's averaged thus far, I haven't seen anything yet that really suggests the coach isn't giving him a fair shake. For that reason, I think we're almost guaranteed to see the pattern continue. Bo will play well when he plays higher minutes. But possibly more because the coach will give him greater opportunities when he's playing a strong game. And maybe not as much because the quality of his game depends on him getting a certain amount of ice time (although that can be a factor--which is why I mentioned that I was playing devil's advocate with this post). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamhuis Hipcheck Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 So ... which is it start playing pros or get a full season in the AHL? Horvat can not play in the AHL this year he is to young, he is only allowed to play there on conditioning stints coming back from injury. It's junior or staying here for Bo. edit before I have to edit...it's here for Bo. GoBoGo The AHL is the pros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Boudreau Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) Not saying Horvat is the next Bergeron or whatever. Just found it interesting that Bergeron originally made Boston in 03-04 then played almost a full season in the AHL before becoming an NHL regular the following year. This type of plan can work and be beneficial both short term and long term. So there is some evidence that as long as Horvat is getting 10 plus minutes every game and playing well defensively first and foremost ie; faceoffs, etc... then he can stay in the mix this year and the Canucks should make space for him. The year after they can put him down in Utica with Shinkaruk to work on getting his offensive game going at the pro level where he will get top six minutes. Right now he has done enough to prove he can be a competent 4th line center easily with his face off work, good stick/defensive awareness and hustle on the fore check and in the corners. Edited November 22, 2014 by Chip Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filthycanuck Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Kassian has done nothing pretty much all year, he should be the odd guy out. Everytime Mattias, Richardson, or Hansens name comes up as a candidate for the pressbox, they seem to perform. Right now, those 3 guys are playing really well, Kassian gets numerous amounts of chances. Wheres the production? or the impact for that matter. Bo got his first goal great, the fact that hes been awesome on the faceoffs this early in his career, and defensively responsible, theres a role he can play in this team that benefits him MUCH more than junior. People should start taking off the rose coloured glasses with Kassian. Hes had little or no impact on this team, i know the potential is there but there comes a point where, "do SOMETHING to get noticeable". The first line is getting back on a roll, the second line has been terrific, Dorsett has been consistent, and the the 3 bottom 6 guys i mentioned have been playing very well. Linden Vey has been decent, but has the numbers to show he can play. Kassian is the odd guy out of this group, the fans are just to enamoured on the coolaid MG was serving 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bp79 Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Don't look now, but Hansen's on pace for 20 goals (tied for 3rd on the team with Hank) despite being 10th in ES TOI per game. It's ridiculous what a whipping boy Jannik has become, he's contributing more than most yet people still want him out of the lineup. i have to admit I was one of those guys who wanted his ass in a suit. I was wrong, he has been good this season. That being said I think Bo is on the cusp of breaking out. He has been just what we thought he would be. his play isn't like a rookie at all, so calm and so good in the dot. I would like to see him on the 3rd with kass and vey move brad down to the 4th and sit mathias and or hanson or even brad if it works out then maybe we can look at moving someone in the bottom 6. I think hanson would get an ok return to a team that needs a good shutdown player who can also score 20, but id rather keep him and trade brad. I think Bo will be more valuable then brad this year. The reason id trade him over mathias is we know brads ceiling Mathias has looked better of late, but id still rather have bo up there alternatin vey and mathias on the wing until one of them beats the other one out. Im more worried about how much better the nucks played on d after losing hammer. i dunno to me he has been terrible for his standards, and hes making his partners look bad as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuck nit Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 We don't need to make room for him we are carrying 14 forwards anyway so no need for a trade. There is a need for a top four d man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canorth Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 With his time running out, I wouldn't be surprised if he sticks with the club if he scores another goal or chips in a couple of assists in the next few games. Horvat has handled himself very well and far better than I had expected in the latest games. He's rarely a liability defensively the way Matthias and Hansen are, and he's the Canucks best faceoff man. Since he's been with the club, our faceoff percentages have gone through the roof and he's a big reason for that. The question is, what's better for his development? Playing 9 minutes a game on our 4th line playing against real NHLers or going back to junior to dominate kids again? I think Horvat needs to start playing with the pros. A full season in the AHL is what's needed before he makes a jump to our 3rd line center spot. A defensive liability...Hansen...??? You should have a look at Mathias's take away/give away ratio. So the choices for Horvat are for him to dominate juniors or to continue a playing against NHL caliber players. Then you say it will be best for him to start playing with pros and spend the year in the AHL - which is not possible. Please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canorth Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Kassian has done nothing pretty much all year, he should be the odd guy out. Everytime Mattias, Richardson, or Hansens name comes up as a candidate for the pressbox, they seem to perform. Right now, those 3 guys are playing really well, Kassian gets numerous amounts of chances. Wheres the production? or the impact for that matter. Bo got his first goal great, the fact that hes been awesome on the faceoffs this early in his career, and defensively responsible, theres a role he can play in this team that benefits him MUCH more than junior. People should start taking off the rose coloured glasses with Kassian. Hes had little or no impact on this team, i know the potential is there but there comes a point where, "do SOMETHING to get noticeable". The first line is getting back on a roll, the second line has been terrific, Dorsett has been consistent, and the the 3 bottom 6 guys i mentioned have been playing very well. Linden Vey has been decent, but has the numbers to show he can play. Kassian is the odd guy out of this group, the fans are just to enamoured on the coolaid MG was serving Nothing strengthens an argument more than adding over used clichés like "rose colored glasses" or "Kool aid drinking" Well done... p.s. Bo doesn't score a goal that game if it wasn't for Kassian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groovy Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 There is a need for a top four d man. Most teams would say the same I imagine. As for Bo I don`t get why IF he stays this season he would spend a year in the AHL next as some propose? He is either good enough to do the job now or back to junior. And IF he is deemed good enough now the AHL seems like a major demotion IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amish Rake Fighter Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) Just to play devil's advocate a bit, it might also be that Horvat has been given more minutes in the games where WD has felt he's played well and has cut back on minutes when the coach has seen things he didn't like in Bo's game. It could be a "chicken or the egg" kinda deal and, as much as I like Horvat, I'm slightly inclined to give Willie the benefit of the doubt here. Ultimately, I really believe that the coach will give minutes to the guys he feels are playing their best hockey and who give the team a better chance to win on any given night. When Horvat is one of those players, more so than other options in the lineup, I believe Desjardins will give him the minutes he deserves, and vice versa. As much as I've wanted Bo to play more than he's averaged thus far, I haven't seen anything yet that really suggests the coach isn't giving him a fair shake. For that reason, I think we're almost guaranteed to see the pattern continue. Bo will play well when he plays higher minutes. But possibly more because the coach will give him greater opportunities when he's playing a strong game. And maybe not as much because the quality of his game depends on him getting a certain amount of ice time (although that can be a factor--which is why I mentioned that I was playing devil's advocate with this post). I think Bo's ice time was cut back in the Ottawa game after his line got mired in their own zone and iced the puck. If I had to guess, I'd say that Willie originally wanted to match Bo up against Zibanejad's line but didn't like what he saw, especially in such a tight game. Not saying Horvat is the next Bergeron or whatever. Just found it interesting that Bergeron originally made Boston in 03-04 then played almost a full season in the AHL before becoming an NHL regular the following year. That was during the NHL lockout, that's also why he was able to go to the WJCs that year and play on a line with Crosby and Perry. Edited November 22, 2014 by Amish Rake Fighter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniwaki Canuck Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 There's an interesting rant from Bur on player development here: http://blogs.theprovince.com/2014/11/21/canucks-hat-trick-want-candor-about-player-development-alex-burrows-explains-it-best/ I think it applies pretty well to Bo's situation and expect that he's going to stay up as 4C. When all our forwards are healthy, keeping him up does mean that we'll be sitting someone who deserves to play, but that's a good problem to have. When Sestito gets healthy, he probably gets waived, but I can live with that. Bottom line: if we're looking at being competitive with the California teams in the playoffs, Bo at 4C is easily our best option. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 The AHL is the pros. Yes but Bo can't play there this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 There's an interesting rant from Bur on player development here: http://blogs.theprovince.com/2014/11/21/canucks-hat-trick-want-candor-about-player-development-alex-burrows-explains-it-best/ I think it applies pretty well to Bo's situation and expect that he's going to stay up as 4C. When all our forwards are healthy, keeping him up does mean that we'll be sitting someone who deserves to play, but that's a good problem to have. When Sestito gets healthy, he probably gets waived, but I can live with that. Bottom line: if we're looking at being competitive with the California teams in the playoffs, Bo at 4C is easily our best option. No one has to get waived Willie has said many times we are carrying 14 forwards so Sestito and one other will sit when we are all healthy...which may never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 There's an interesting rant from Bur on player development here: http://blogs.theprovince.com/2014/11/21/canucks-hat-trick-want-candor-about-player-development-alex-burrows-explains-it-best/ I think it applies pretty well to Bo's situation and expect that he's going to stay up as 4C. When all our forwards are healthy, keeping him up does mean that we'll be sitting someone who deserves to play, but that's a good problem to have. When Sestito gets healthy, he probably gets waived, but I can live with that. Bottom line: if we're looking at being competitive with the California teams in the playoffs, Bo at 4C is easily our best option. Yeah I just read that in the Burrows thread. Great read. Seems like Burr was pointing at Hodgson with his last remarks. It looks like Bo knows and understands his role on this team though, which is good. He's doing whatever the team asks of him to help them get wins. The only problem with Bo staying up is our depth, and whether he would benefit more from developing his offense in London or staying here and playing on the 4th line. I think he's better off in London and trying to win a Memorial Cup with a mature London Knights squad that could do it if they had Bo back. We'll see after a couple more games what management decides to do. Sidenote: Burr still out, and so it looks like Bo will have the opportunity to play against his idol, Toews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khay Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Yeah I just read that in the Burrows thread. Great read. Seems like Burr was pointing at Hodgson with his last remarks. It looks like Bo knows and understands his role on this team though, which is good. He's doing whatever the team asks of him to help them get wins. The only problem with Bo staying up is our depth, and whether he would benefit more from developing his offense in London or staying here and playing on the 4th line. I think he's better off in London and trying to win a Memorial Cup with a mature London Knights squad that could do it if they had Bo back. We'll see after a couple more games what management decides to do. Sidenote: Burr still out, and so it looks like Bo will have the opportunity to play against his idol, Toews. After reading Burrows perspective on development, I no longer think that offence is something that can only be developed by playing in the lower league. In fact, I think it might hinder Bo's offensive development by sending him back. Many of us talk about offensive skills as if though it's something that gets developed when you are young and then it stops once you reach NHL but that is clearly not true. Look at Kesler, Burrows, and even Sedins, they all started with different ceilings and tools but their offensive skills continuously developed over the course of their career. After watching Bo score his first goal, I now believe that his offensive skills or instincts are more or less well developed and he needs to adapt to NHL. If by sending him back, we expect him to come back with Sedin like or Patrick Kane like skillset, then we are mistaken. If he gets sent back, he will go back and do the same things that he's been doing without any serious challenge. I really don't think that's a way to develop offensive skills. He needs to play in the NHL, he will learn that some of his junior plays won't work and that he will need to come up with a new ways to make plays. Besides, he is already the best faceoff man on this team. He will continue to develop his defensive skills and I can already see him being able to match up against top players by the end of the season. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOgRook Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I have not contradicted myself over and over I just don't want to repeat the facts that I said last page. I guess I will have to. He has only played 7 games so far. Hardly has gotten over 10+ in the majority of them meaning he hasn't been able to contribute significantly to our success besides on the dot and some nice plays in his own zone. When Vey centers the 4th line his offensive capabilities help that line get more time in the offensive zone therefore they get trusted with more minutes. Does Vey have his faults? Yes but WD seems to like him on that line when we are healthy. We rolled 4 lines and each 4th liner played a role on special teams.Horvat's offensive capabilities are limited as of now, especially due to his ice time. Do I have a problem with Horvat staying? No if he is getting more than 10+ minutes a game and plays good in those minutes otherwise it seems like a waste of time to have him here when he could be getting more than double the amount he is playing now in junior. Another thing is who sits when Burrows gets back? Who deserves to sit in our lineup when Horvat's 9 games are up? I can't think of anybody as of now. Our 4 lines were playing well prior to Horvat coming and those players have still played well. Unless we get hit with a long term injury that takes out a forward or Horvat finally gets a chance playing quality minutes and outplays someone in the bottom 6 significantly enough to move them then there is no point in keeping him. We were playing good hockey before Horvat started playing and I don't doubt we would continue to play well without him. You keep going on and on about Veys icetime on the fourth line... So what 2 mins more a night? Most of that extra time being 1st line pp? Horvat does more of the things you need from the fourth line. Smart decisions, strong on the puck, good in the circle. Let's face it folks. For the first time in a long time we have a pretty deep forward group. Nice problem to have 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekey Pete Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 After reading Burrows perspective on development, I no longer think that offence is something that can only be developed by playing in the lower league. In fact, I think it might hinder Bo's offensive development by sending him back. Many of us talk about offensive skills as if though it's something that gets developed when you are young and then it stops once you reach NHL but that is clearly not true. Look at Kesler, Burrows, and even Sedins, they all started with different ceilings and tools but their offensive skills continuously developed over the course of their career. After watching Bo score his first goal, I now believe that his offensive skills or instincts are more or less well developed and he needs to adapt to NHL. If by sending him back, we expect him to come back with Sedin like or Patrick Kane like skillset, then we are mistaken. If he gets sent back, he will go back and do the same things that he's been doing without any serious challenge. I really don't think that's a way to develop offensive skills. He needs to play in the NHL, he will learn that some of his junior plays won't work and that he will need to come up with a new ways to make plays. Besides, he is already the best faceoff man on this team. He will continue to develop his defensive skills and I can already see him being able to match up against top players by the end of the season. pretty much exactly. Bo fits a bottom nine role better than any of our other prospects right now. It's like Bur said in the article, you adapt to what types of holes the team needs filled if you want to stay up. While Jensen has probably earned his due more than Bo, he is not that great defensively, and is more suited to a top six role. Also if Bo can hone his face off skills (continuing like he did in his game against Anaheim) that is just another positive reason for keeping him around. Management has said they want a puck possession team, and one way to get the upper hand on puck possession is to win key face offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 After reading Burrows perspective on development, I no longer think that offence is something that can only be developed by playing in the lower league. In fact, I think it might hinder Bo's offensive development by sending him back. Remember Valk saying that young players can "lose" their offensive instincts or ability if not put in offensive situations? Don't really see that as being the case, because very few step into the league directly onto the top two lines unless into a situation like Edmonton. Most start on the third and fourth lines and work their way up, just as Kesler and Burrows did. Young players do not lose their motor skills, nor mentally "forget" how to make creative plays. It's something that continues to develop and peaks out at different levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 And as per that article, another positive about Bo is his attitude -- he does not come across as cocky or entitled (as was alluded to a former young player) and seems willing to fulfill whatever role is expected of him. Gaunce is similar -- both guys have a quiet yet strong personna with definite leadership abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snizzle_ Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) Remember Valk saying that young players can "lose" their offensive instincts or ability if not put in offensive situations? Don't really see that as being the case, because very few step into the league directly onto the top two lines unless into a situation like Edmonton. Most start on the third and fourth lines and work their way up, just as Kesler and Burrows did. Young players do not lose their motor skills, nor mentally "forget" how to make creative plays. It's something that continues to develop and peaks out at different levels. I somewhat agree and disagree with your notion here. Where I do agree is that most players begin on the 3rd and 4th line and work their way up, but where I disagree is that players need to learn how to succeed offensively in order to produce at the next level. I mentioned this earlier but I'll rehash it again: The Detroit method works because they allow their players to develop their offensive touch through every rank moving towards the NHL, so the player never loses that "muscle memory" or "instinct" to score. It's not that young skilled players lose their "motor skills", it's that if they are rushed too early to develop defensive roles and are taught all defence, then they will develop that muscle memory and instinct to think that way in the NHL in the future. I'm not saying learning defence is bad, but it is alot easier to teach a skilled player to play defence than to teach a defensive player to play offence. If you're saying that "the offence will eventually come", well then more often than not it won't. Slow and Steady wins the race. Players can lose their offensive instinct and prowess if that happens, you look at so many top picks who were rushed because they were "physically ready" but may not have been ready enough to incorporate their creativity; just because a player is 6 1" and over 200 pounds doesn't make him "Ready". You want to develop players in all facets of their game that made them top picks to begin with; look at the Manny Malhotras of the world. Obviously it's different with every player but I feel like that is the basic premise to developing players right now. Edited November 22, 2014 by junglesniper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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