Linden: We're building a new core group and will stick to plan (TSN1040) (Nov 21)

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

So if I am to understand this correctly, Bo and Virt "were" the plan, and now just Bo is the plan.  Seems legit.  I hope they start gathering picks, doing that would be a good fit  with the plan.  I still have faith in Linden, he's allowed to make some missteps along the way.  I'm still interested.

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

.

[MoneypuckOverlord]

so who the hell is part of our new core?
 

Bo Horvat a future 2nd line player, Boeser maybe a 1st line winger, Virtanen hopefully a 2nd line winger??
 

shoot were are our 1st line players???~!!!

[JM_]

1 minute ago, NHTyrany said:

Agree although I'm still pissed we decided to win some games at the tail end of a huge deep draft year. Just look at Laine and Mathews. One could have easily been in a nucks jersey but some suggest it would have been bad habit for the team to take a few xtra nights off while on the road. I guess we can say we did it the honest way...

 

Drafts are funny things. If Burkie can't get 2 and 3 in 1999, maybe we suck for a decade or more. We just don't know what we're going to get.

 

I like that Benning ranks character so high. I think thats what sets guys like Toews apart from the pack. His numbers don't blow you away, but he knows how to win,  and JB seems to know it when he sees it in players. I think we got very lucky with Gillis picking Bo. Best thing Gillis did on that front thats for sure. 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Raymond Luxury Yacht said:

So if I am to understand this correctly, Bo and Virt "were" the plan, and now just Bo is the plan.  Seems legit.  I hope they start gathering picks, doing that would be a good fit  with the plan.  I still have faith in Linden, he's allowed to make some missteps along the way.  I'm still interested.

 

Jake is still a big part of the plan, he just needs a year away from his mom. 

[Jam126]

1 minute ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

so who the hell is part of our new core?
 

Bo Horvat a future 2nd line player, Boeser maybe a 1st line winger, Virtanen hopefully a 2nd line winger??
 

shoot were are our 1st line players???~!!!

From where JB started I'd say it's OK. He's going to focus more on offense this draft.

[oldnews]

14 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

 

Like Panarin? We need  a couple of small speedy wingers exactly like this guy. Thats what Gaudette or Lockwood may be for us in a couple of seasons.

 

No one in the pipeline? How about Jake? Or LaBate if you're looking for bottom 6 grit and fight?

 

Well, and there's another irony.

 

Panarin wasn't even a pick.  He was a free agent that chose to go to Chicago.

 

Who knows who gets the next Panarin?   Perhaps Tampa already has that player in Gusev.

 

Or perhaps that player is Anton Rodin.  Or Artturi Lekhonen.  Or maybe Shipachev signs here next summer.  Who knows.

 

There's more than one way to acquire talent.

 

And the idea that you don's sign free agents unless they're 25 or under - is just daft.

[Butters Stoch]

4 minutes ago, NHTyrany said:

Agree although I'm still pissed we decided to win some games at the tail end of a huge deep draft year. Just look at Laine and Mathews. One could have easily been in a nucks jersey but some suggest it would have been bad habit for the team to take a few xtra nights off while on the road. I guess we can say we did it the honest way...

I'm all for tanking but its pretty ridiculous to players to throw games. They're playing for their jobs, why would they care about the long term future of the team that they might not even be a part of? Tanking starts with management, JB should've traded some guys for draft picks at the trade deadline but didn't and made it clear that he wanted to compete instead.

[JM_]

Just now, oldnews said:

Well, and there's another irony.

 

Panarin wasn't even a pick.  He was a free agent that chose to go to Chicago.

 

Who knows who gets the next Panarin?   Perhaps Tampa already has that player in Gusev.

 

Or perhaps that player is Anton Rodin.  Or Artturi Lekhonen.  Or maybe Shipachev signs here next summer.  Who knows.

 

There's more than one way to acquire talent.

 

And the idea that you don's sign free agents unless they're 25 or under - is just daft.

 

Yup couldn't agree more. Rodin sure seems to have the hands, if the preseason can really tell you anything. 

 

Regardless, there is a growing pipeline of talent being built up by JB, the only thing that surprises me is how much of CDC seems unwilling to see it. 

 

 

[DIBdaQUIB]

38 minutes ago, oldnews said:

 

I think the three of them deserve a lot of credit for what they've done to suit the circumstances.

 

I mean throw out the short term results - because while I judge them and expect the team to remain relatively competitive, the whole crowd that thinks the current group sucks really doesn't have grounds to expect superior results - these struggles for them are just the reality of the team.

 

Now - context.

 

They have a pair of (becoming former) franchise players that have constituted their top line for the better part of a decade - and while they may no longer be a premier top line in the NHL, they're still serviceable and are the identity of the franchise.

So, in two senses, the last thing the team needs to accomplish is replacing the Sedins.  That may have become the first order of business in the present, but that would be testimony to what these three have accomplished in two years.

 

The other fundamental part of the context imo - the contending years produced a gap, a demographic gap between the past and the emerging core - and in addition, by virtue of perenial late picks, challenged the team to manage an unrealistic Detroitesque continuity despite that fact - but at the very least, do their best to emulate the powerhouse results of the master perenial retoolers of the NHL.

 

Filling that generational core gap is fundamentally an 'unrealistic' challenge.   People can make fun of the idea that players like Sutter or Gudbranson are 'core' or foundational players, but barring dealing their absolute best young assets to top picks to acquire current NHL proven core/foundational players, the team literally has to pull a few rabbits out of their hat.  Well, the continuing returns/progression of the Kesler deal imo is not that far off.

 

Has the team been "rebuilding"?  Whatever.  I couldn't care less about cookie cutters or semantics.   Gillis brought two (imo) core pieces back in preliminary rebuild/retool deals in Horvat and Markstrom.  Benning has kept all his high picks and the bulk of the rest of them as well - and he's added another group of potential core pieces - Demko, Boeser, Tryamkin, Virtanen, etc through the draft.  Has he dwelled on stockplling every future? No, of course not - he needed to come up with something to come between the 30-35 yr old core and the 20 yr old next ones.   So he did his best there and imo, not such a bad job considering what he really spent - Kesler, Bieksa, Garrison....I'll take what's been managed with the returns.

 

The other aspects of the rebuiltool imo also make perfect sense.

You dont' built a house from the top down, with a bunch of top floor skilled forwards at the top, and a foundation lagging behind, particularly when you're never going to have those 1st overalls to be spoon fed generational talents.

 

So, two reasons to build from the back forward.

1)  It takes longer to develop goaltenders and defensemen and they're a lesser certainty regardless.

2)  You already have an existing core of skilled forwards in the transition, and in additiion, it's easier to plug young forwards into key productive roles and be competitive than it is to do so on your back end.

 

So all in all, we have a progression plan that starts from the back and looks like:

 

The transitional core pieces to give way - Sedins, Edler, MIller (no assets) with (hopefully) a few that will remain - Honey Badger, Eriksson...

A few transitional secondary pieces to give way - Burrows, Dorsett, Sbisa (tbh I'd have no real problem with Sbisa transitioning into a future fixture if he continues to progress as he has and we deal someone else to fill a need - but regardless, the third piece of the Kesler deal - not so bad).

 

Markstrom Demko

Juolevi Gudbranson Tryamkin Tanev Hutton Stecher + relatively unknown quantities in the prospect pool

Horvat, Sutter, Boeser, Granlund, Virtanen, Baertschi? + unkonwn quantities [+ Hansen, Eriksson]

 

Are there a few pieces that the team needs to add - of course there are.

Do we have a few unknown quantities that could be far more than we expect (ala Tryamkin, Hutton, Stecher) in our incubating forward group?  Who knows - Lockwood, Zhukenov, whomever - maybe one or two of these guys become solid top 9 forwards  - the next Burrows or Hansen etc.

 

But is the "plan" really so difficult to conceive?

And is/was the alternative - dealing the Sedins - really that realistic?  Or even attractive.  Myself - I'd rather they be the lifers than retool chips, for a number of reasons.

 

Does the team need an elite forward or two in the near future?  Probably, maybe, who knows, but likely.  However, is it so unrealistic that Benning come up with that?

He has his 1sts.  He has a couple 2nds this year.  He has the potential to deal a defenseman to either bring in a current forward, or add some futures that could increase the possibility of drafting one.

 

Aside from the current, short term results - which the most vocal protesters would sacrifice in any event in order to "rebuild" - is there really the grounds for the doom and gloom?

 

We may not have forwards like the Coil or other tankers - but what about the equally important back end?  How do the Canucks fare there - and what part of the rest would people rather be faced with completing.

 

I personally am perfectly content with the form and content of what these three - Lindenningardins - have accomplished in two years.

They also have 10 million in expiring veterans next summer - in positions that they're fairly healthy in succession.

People have complained a lot about Benning's contracts, and yet where is the lack of health in terms of their future flexibility?

 

I don't know.  Can someone explain how they should have done so much better?

What I hear is stuff like 'stop acquiring 'old' players - essentially Sutter, Gudbranson, Granlund etc - because that makes no sense to me unless we're looking to collapse in between generations/cores.  I think the team has more self-respect and respect for the Sedins to do that.

I also hear the idea of stockpiling every future possible - but wadr - are we all that much better off with another pick as opposed to Hansen for example?

Aside from that, I hear some hindsight dreamers that thought water should have been drawn from stones like Vrbata et al - or an injured Hamhuis, or an injured Higgins, etc.

A few losses, yes - Kass, Vey/Garrison,(I'd say the 5th/Forsling/Clendening, but they converted Clendening into value on Sutter that is hard to argue with) - but you simply cannot make the volume of moves necessary without taking some losses.  It's like the game itself - you win some, you lose some, but where the rebuild/tool goes, I'd say they're doing pretty well with some ways to go, but probably better prospect of adding to their futures as opposed to having to spend (albeit relatively marginal ones) moving forward.

 

I've been very impressed with this teams' amateur and pro scouting in the past two years - I see no reason they can't finish the top floor.

Good read. 

Certainly, our d core is looking promising.  Marky has looked like a starter at times but the jury is still out on him and Demko is a ways off.  Up front, Jb has his work cut out for him.  We do have some promising youth coming up but no guarantees at all.  Watching the talent level of  Edmonton, Chicago, even Calgary's kids and Toronto's kids etc. our offense is severely lacking. WE just have nobody (except maybe Bo) who can control play and drive the opportunities.  Systems are great but we really need to add some dynamic up-front talent if we are truly gong to compete in this league.

No quick fix there which is why I was not overly excited with trying to fill that gap with Kane which to me seemed like a high gamble and a somewhat desperate option.

 

What also concerns me, is that some of the moves don't appear consistent with moving the team in the direction you outline.  JB's comments about the goal being to make the playoffs along with signings like LE,  give the impression that management is willing to pay a long-term price (fewer picks/prospects) to support the old core in winning now.  

 

My biggest frustration is with WD.  I just can't figure out his approach to personnel.  Even the Sedins have said they are puzzled by some of his moves.

 

Oh well...I'll keep watching, hoping and most likely ranting as we go through this phase.  I just hope I live to see the rebuilt product. I've been a Nucks fan since the beginning and there have been far too few high points and far too many droughts. I really hope decisions/mistakes are not being made that will delay or jeopardise turning this ship around.

 

[oldnews]

11 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

Good read. 

Certainly, our d core is looking promising.  Marky has looked like a starter at times but the jury is still out on him and Demko is a ways off.  Up front, Jb has his work cut out for him.  We do have some promising youth coming up but no guarantees at all.  Watching the talent level of  Edmonton, Chicago, even Calgary's kids and Toronto's kids etc. our offense is severely lacking. WE just have nobody (except maybe Bo) who can control play and drive the opportunities.  Systems are great but we really need to add some dynamic up-front talent if we are truly gong to compete in this league.

No quick fix there which is why I was not overly excited with trying to fill that gap with Kane which to me seemed like a high gamble and a somewhat desperate option.

 

What also concerns me, is that some of the moves don't appear consistent with moving the team in the direction you outline.  JB's comments about the goal being to make the playoffs along with signings like LE,  give the impression that management is willing to pay a long-term price (fewer picks/prospects) to support the old core in winning now.  

 

My biggest frustration is with WD.  I just can't figure out his approach to personnel.  Even the Sedins have said they are puzzled by some of his moves.

 

Oh well...I'll keep watching, hoping and most likely ranting as we go through this phase.  I just hope I live to see the rebuilt product. I've been a Nucks fan since the beginning and there have been far too many high points and far too many droughts. I really hope decisions/mistakes are not being made that will delay or jeopardise turning this ship around.

 

There are no guarantees for anyone - or quick fixes.

A couple Nylanders and Marners don't necessarily put a tanker ahead of the curve - and again, we simply don't know if we have some incubating dynamic bus driving talent already - ie Boeser, Zhukenov, Lockwood - or if we need to draft them/more - which is of course more likely and necessary, but why is that so much more daunting than drafting and building a back end once you have those play driving forwards, but still not necessarily the foundation/back end it truly takes to win with.

If it were automatic, guaranteed or easy we'd be in the midst of another Coiler dynasty, but we all know how that has played out - they needed yet another generational talent to even have reason to dream about it.

 

You take every opportunity you get to add key players - free agency is no exception - and signing a player like Eriksson is a no-brainer.   Middling teams, bottomfeeders and contenders everywhere compete to sign the Erikssons, Backes, Lucics, Okposos - there is no cookie cutter ready made contender destination for free agents.

 

Perhaps the Canucks will be due their share of luck.  One thing though that I won't be holding my breath on - some kind of spoon fed gifts like the pathetic tankers of the NHL have enjoyed.  Don't respect them, don't think we're in the club, and don't want to be 'built' by accident like them.

 

I'll take a Bruins or Ducks or Redwings style build over the Leafs, Coilers or Hawks anyday if the end result is the same,

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

1 hour ago, S'all Good Man said:

 

Like CDC and Botchford? I haven't seen anything out of anyone that would have first hand knowledge of "meddling" whatever thats supposed to mean. 

because if elliotte friedman says so, it must be true xD

[Riviera82]

4 hours ago, Warhippy said:

But...wtf IS the plan?

 

We're going to get younger, trade youth and picks for older players

We're going to develop, trades prospects for NHL journeymen and vets

We're going to stockpile picks and prospects, lets assets walk and trades picks prospects

We're going to compete for the playoffs....

 

Thanks for the update Linden.  But we kind of need to know what the actual plan is instead of this bi-polar flavour of the day depending on our win loss column.

 

WhoseTruckWasIt will have your ass for posting such blasphemy.

[CanucksJay]

3 hours ago, oldnews said:

the mentality of CDC projected on the management group.

Is it a rebuild or a retool? 

They have been bipolar and to suggest otherwise is just completely ignorant. A rebuilding team doesn't sign Miller and Vrbata as UFAs and then follows  that up by signing Erikson to a retirement contact. So then are they "retooling"  still and  sticking to that plan? 

 

 

 

[ynwa]

Why are some of you so impatient? Do you think the train wreck that was the Blackhawks was turned into a Stanley Cup champion overnight? It takes time—get used to it!

[CanucksJay]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

There are no guarantees for anyone - or quick fixes.

A couple Nylanders and Marners don't necessarily put a tanker ahead of the curve - and again, we simply don't know if we have some incubating dynamic bus driving talent already - ie Boeser, Zhukenov, Lockwood - or if we need to draft them/more - which is of course more likely and necessary, but why is that so much more daunting than drafting and building a back end once you have those play driving forwards, but still not necessarily the foundation/back end it truly takes to win with.

If it were automatic, guaranteed or easy we'd be in the midst of another Coiler dynasty, but we all know how that has played out - they needed yet another generational talent to even have reason to dream about it.

 

You take every opportunity you get to add key players - free agency is no exception - and signing a player like Eriksson is a no-brainer.   Middling teams, bottomfeeders and contenders everywhere compete to sign the Erikssons, Backes, Lucics, Okposos - there is no cookie cutter ready made contender destination for free agents.

 

Perhaps the Canucks will be due their share of luck.  One thing though that I won't be holding my breath on - some kind of spoon fed gifts like the pathetic tankers of the NHL have enjoyed.  Don't respect them, don't think we're in the club, and don't want to be 'built' by accident like them.

 

I'll take a Bruins or Ducks or Redwings style build over the Leafs, Coilers or Hawks anyday if the end result is the same,

 

Look at our record, it might as well be a tank because despite us trying to emulate the redwings, our record is more like Edmonton circa last 10 years. 

Is it safe to say we failed thing to  copy the redwings model? 

[CanucksJay]

3 minutes ago, ynwa said:

Why are some of you so impatient? Do you think the train wreck that was the Blackhawks was turned into a Stanley Cup champion overnight? It takes time—get used to it!

The Blackhawks got better once they committed to a rebuild. I honestly don't know what the canucks are trying to do on the other hand 

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

Is it a rebuild or a retool? 

They have been bipolar and to suggest otherwise is just completely ignorant. A rebuilding team doesn't sign Miller and Vrbata as UFAs and then follows  that up by signing Erikson to a retirement contact. So then are they "retooling"  still and  sticking to that plan? 

 

What's ignorant is mistaking semantics for something relevant, while complaining that the Canucks approach doesn't fit your keyword of choice or a mystery cookie-cutter concept of a "rebuild".

[oldnews]

3 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

Look at our record, it might as well be a tank because despite us trying to emulate the redwings, our record is more like Edmonton circa last 10 years. 

Is it safe to say we failed thing to  copy the redwings model? 

 

 

[CanucksJay]

3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

What's ignorant is mistaking semantics for something relevant, while complaining that the Canucks approach doesn't fit your keyword of choice or a mystery cookie-cutter concept of a "rebuild".

You say a lot of words but they don't mean anything. Are the canucks rebuilding or retooling? 

Believe it or not, they do mean different things. I just want an honest answer. Do you know which path they are taking?