Article - Leafs' reno on pace, while Canucks lagging behind

[coolboarder]

Here is my take on the rebuild, slower and methodical rebuild with no tearing down like Canucks or tear down and faster with many holes like Toronto rebuild plans.  If you have excessive assets in one position such as goalie or defence position.   You have only 6 starting defence compared to 12 forwards.  My theory that it is far easier to stockpile the asset in defence through the picks than to stockpile in forward.  I am not talking about 1D or 1C.   When you do have some excessive assets in goalie or defence, it is far easier to do a 2 for 1 or even 3 for 1 deals than to trade a forward for a better defenceman.   If we paid for Gud, It was 3 for 1, 1 forward plus two draft picks.   That's the price to pay to rebuild a defence.  That's the first step of stockpiling the D-core.   Tryamkin, Stecher, and Hutton coming in the system along with Gud and Sbisa is emerging as a solid top 4 D despite his bad contract.   So the count so far is 4 solid ones with Tanev and Edler.   We have some prospects in minors or junior developing into a potential useful defence for this team.   If all of those projected young defence panning out into a solid defensive team then you can always afford to trade at least one of the stockpiled defence or goalie for a forward.   That's how you can do both, slow and faster rebuild by strategically stockpile in one position for some excessive asset to trade for proven forward.  

 

When you are dealing 3 on 1, then if 2 of those acquired players panning out then we would gain one more asset to our roster and could be useful for even more 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 deals to get even more stronger on certain position.  The hardest part to maintain those strategy is to do some research on scouting report and make sure that knowing what we are giving up compared to knowing what we would get in return is the key to any rebuild teams.  Teams coming out of rebuild years becomes stronger and stronger and would be able to keep the window open longer and longer than failed 2005-2012 draft years.  If the Canucks did better drafting or better trades and avoid the rental route during those years, I have no doubt in my mind that they would be one of the top team in the league this year but they failed in those drafting during those years has hurt us more than we will ever know.  

 

Now, Benning has done a real good job on what he has had to do is to remain patience and gamble a little bit and hope for the best on what this team has turned into.  He had some prospect assets to play with knowing that there are no guarantee on every draft picks he owns so he traded Forsling for Clendening because at that time, he had some veterans that were part of 2011 team and he thought that they would be just enough D-core with a PP QB specialist to keep it up then he realized during the playoff series that Bieska, Hamhuis, and a few others let the Canucks down and we had injured Miller and Lack let us down as well.   So what did he do, he traded away Bunino, and Clendening for more proven player in Sutter.  He knew that the Canucks is not cut to be a strong team so he continued his course and wisely focused the defence group in 2015 draft and his first pick of 2016 to stockpile the defence core with some luck in free agent.  He resign Weber and Bartowski as a stop-gap because he has had no other option but to go through a year like they did last year.   He could have traded for Hamhuis but other GM is trying to fleece him so he decided to stop the lowball strategy from other GM by sending a message that I would not be taken advantage of in the future deals.   His last trade was last May and it has been a while but he knows that he will have some leverage sooner or later.   So he will rebuild this team in due time through other way while keeping a winning culture as much as he could.  In last 10 games, it tells me of a winning culture maintained despite of 8-game losing streak.   This will be a big test in next 5 games on the road so if he maintains the winning record then he will know what to do after New Year's and trade away some excessive asset in one of two: Tanev or Edler for some help in forward under control in RFA if he can convince the owner that the young defence core is better than Edler and Tanev. 

 

So rebuild on the fly is Linden's strategy for now.   It could be a good strategy where it maintains winning culture while introducing young players  to the roster little by little at the same time exposing the hard working culture.   An injury, long term to Matthews can knock his value down and their #1 pick is wasted so it is no guaranteed that he will pan out because rest of the league will adjust to him.  So far, I just don't see him making some noise until he is about 21-22 years old.  he is only 18 so that's at least 3-4 years away.   By that time his confidence could either succeed or ruined so there's no guarantee even he had a strong debut.   Rookie tend to have better year than the 2nd or 5th year because most guys do not key or zero upon him until their 2nd year and forth.   This is the reason why I prefer slower and methodical rebuild than quick one with tanking and only 5 % of those tanking strategy work out toward a cup run.    I can live with that the Canucks is trying to do, having Sedin around to teach the youngster to continue work hard and improve.   Sutter knows the value of working hard as he was raised in Sutter family with their reputation of working hard on and off the ice.   So the Canucks is in a good hand once Sedin decides to hang up their skates for good.

[falcon45ca]

8 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

http://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/ed-willes-leafs-reno-on-pace-while-canucks-lagging-behind#comments

 

For an early December game between a pair of 12th-placed teams, the Saturday night special between the visiting Toronto Maple Leafs and the Vancouver Canucks served up any number of ready-made storylines.

There was revenge factor, which led to a bruising heavyweight fight between the Canucks’ Erik Gudbrandson and the Leafs’ Matt Martin, the kind of scrap that used to be an integral part of the game but is no more, even if it can bring 18,000 fans to their feet.

 

There was a sublime goaltending performance by the Canucks’ Ryan Miller, who turned aside 38 of 40 shots as the Canucks squeaked out a 3-2 shootout win.

There was even the predictable drama created by the legion of Leafs’ fans in attendance, full-throated and fully invested, creating a charged atmosphere in a building which is usually flatter than pee on a plate.

 

So you can take your choice of those topics as you contemplate the events in and around a noteworthy night at The Rog. But if you were looking for something not quite as obvious; something subtler but more meaningful, we call your attention to the two lineups and what that says about the direction of the Leafs, the Canucks, and the NHL for that matter.

It’s like this. Between the two teams, there were 10 players aged 22 or under and three more aged 23. These included the dazzling Auston Matthews, the Leafs’ 19-year-old superstar in the making who scored the tying goal, 19-year-old Mitch Marner, who dominated the game for stretches, and the Canucks’ 21-year-old Bo Horvat, who scored the shootout winner while logging 20:40 of ice time.

 

Gudbrandson, by way of comparison, is just 24, but in this brave new world, he sometimes feels like Grampa Simpson.

“The game has changed and it’s happened really quickly,” Gudbrandson said. “I’ve seen huge changes since I came into the league and it’s only been six years.”

Horvat, who’s in his third year, was asked if he’s now a grizzled veteran.

 

“It feels like it,” he said, before adding, “Every team has some young skilled guys who are going to be around the league for a long time. This is just the beginning. They’re going to be the stars. They already seem to be the stars now.”

But where does that leave the Canucks? That’s just one of the questions that’s going to be answered this season as they continue their makeover, but the images from Saturday night were telling.

 

There were long stretches in the nationally televised tilt in which the Canucks were simply overmatched. True, they had things under control for the first half of the game, opening a 2-0 lead with some tidy work. But after the Leafs’ James van Riemsdyk scored on a power play midway through the second frame, the ice was tilted to an illogical degree.

Over the third period and overtime the Canucks were outshot 18-5. Matthews had five shots, including the tying goal. Marner had four. JVR had six. And there were another 20 shots that missed the net.

 

“We had lots of open nets,” said Leafs head coach Mike Babcock. “We just didn’t shoot it in.”

 

Oh.

 

“We have a lot of good young players who are starting to come,” Babcock continued. “We have eight rookies. That’s a lot of rookies. We’re trying to hold them accountable, catching them doing it right and make sure they know they right way to do it.”

The Leafs, moreover, are just a couple of years down this path, but already look to be far ahead of the Canucks. OK, this year’s draft lottery helped their rebuild immeasurably, and you’re invited to contemplate the role blind luck plays in these endeavours. The Leafs’ went into the lotto with a 20 per cent chance of drawing the first pick. The Canucks were 11.5 for first overall and 11.4 for second.

 

Put Matthews or Patrik Laine in their lineup today and it changes everything for this franchise. But it’s the Leafs with the Golden Child while the Canucks try to hammer away at their renovation; hoping they can make incremental gains throughout the lineup, hoping they can get get lucky with a couple of big things.

It’s possible, one supposes, and there are some encouraging signs this year. Troy Stecher has been a revelation. Nikita Tryamkin has solidified his place in the lineup. Those two players change the entire look of the blueline, which isn’t a bad place to start.

 

But it’s not enough, not based on what we saw on Saturday night, not based on what’s going on in so many cities around the NHL. After a half century, it finally looks like the Leafs’ day is coming.

 

In Vancouver, we wait.

This writer is a fool. Starting a sentence with the word "but", sloppy uses of the semi-colon, run-on sentences , incomplete sentences, and the list goes on and on.

 

i can't take this author seriously if they can't use a colon properly (enter the double entendre).

[riffraff]

2 hours ago, falcon45ca said:

This writer is a fool. Starting a sentence with the word "but", sloppy uses of the semi-colon, run-on sentences , incomplete sentences, and the list goes on and on.

 

i can't take this author seriously if they can't use a colon properly (enter the double entendre).

 

Legit lulz

[Phat Fingers]

3 hours ago, coolboarder said:

Here is my take on the rebuild, slower and methodical rebuild with no tearing down like Canucks or tear down and faster with many holes like Toronto rebuild plans.  If you have excessive assets in one position such as goalie or defence position.   You have only 6 starting defence compared to 12 forwards.  My theory that it is far easier to stockpile the asset in defence through the picks than to stockpile in forward.  I am not talking about 1D or 1C.   When you do have some excessive assets in goalie or defence, it is far easier to do a 2 for 1 or even 3 for 1 deals than to trade a forward for a better defenceman.   If we paid for Gud, It was 3 for 1, 1 forward plus two draft picks.   That's the price to pay to rebuild a defence.  That's the first step of stockpiling the D-core.   Tryamkin, Stecher, and Hutton coming in the system along with Gud and Sbisa is emerging as a solid top 4 D despite his bad contract.   So the count so far is 4 solid ones with Tanev and Edler.   We have some prospects in minors or junior developing into a potential useful defence for this team.   If all of those projected young defence panning out into a solid defensive team then you can always afford to trade at least one of the stockpiled defence or goalie for a forward.   That's how you can do both, slow and faster rebuild by strategically stockpile in one position for some excessive asset to trade for proven forward.  

 

When you are dealing 3 on 1, then if 2 of those acquired players panning out then we would gain one more asset to our roster and could be useful for even more 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 deals to get even more stronger on certain position.  The hardest part to maintain those strategy is to do some research on scouting report and make sure that knowing what we are giving up compared to knowing what we would get in return is the key to any rebuild teams.  Teams coming out of rebuild years becomes stronger and stronger and would be able to keep the window open longer and longer than failed 2005-2012 draft years.  If the Canucks did better drafting or better trades and avoid the rental route during those years, I have no doubt in my mind that they would be one of the top team in the league this year but they failed in those drafting during those years has hurt us more than we will ever know.  

 

Now, Benning has done a real good job on what he has had to do is to remain patience and gamble a little bit and hope for the best on what this team has turned into.  He had some prospect assets to play with knowing that there are no guarantee on every draft picks he owns so he traded Forsling for Clendening because at that time, he had some veterans that were part of 2011 team and he thought that they would be just enough D-core with a PP QB specialist to keep it up then he realized during the playoff series that Bieska, Hamhuis, and a few others let the Canucks down and we had injured Miller and Lack let us down as well.   So what did he do, he traded away Bunino, and Clendening for more proven player in Sutter.  He knew that the Canucks is not cut to be a strong team so he continued his course and wisely focused the defence group in 2015 draft and his first pick of 2016 to stockpile the defence core with some luck in free agent.  He resign Weber and Bartowski as a stop-gap because he has had no other option but to go through a year like they did last year.   He could have traded for Hamhuis but other GM is trying to fleece him so he decided to stop the lowball strategy from other GM by sending a message that I would not be taken advantage of in the future deals.   His last trade was last May and it has been a while but he knows that he will have some leverage sooner or later.   So he will rebuild this team in due time through other way while keeping a winning culture as much as he could.  In last 10 games, it tells me of a winning culture maintained despite of 8-game losing streak.   This will be a big test in next 5 games on the road so if he maintains the winning record then he will know what to do after New Year's and trade away some excessive asset in one of two: Tanev or Edler for some help in forward under control in RFA if he can convince the owner that the young defence core is better than Edler and Tanev. 

 

So rebuild on the fly is Linden's strategy for now.   It could be a good strategy where it maintains winning culture while introducing young players  to the roster little by little at the same time exposing the hard working culture.   An injury, long term to Matthews can knock his value down and their #1 pick is wasted so it is no guaranteed that he will pan out because rest of the league will adjust to him.  So far, I just don't see him making some noise until he is about 21-22 years old.  he is only 18 so that's at least 3-4 years away.   By that time his confidence could either succeed or ruined so there's no guarantee even he had a strong debut.   Rookie tend to have better year than the 2nd or 5th year because most guys do not key or zero upon him until their 2nd year and forth.   This is the reason why I prefer slower and methodical rebuild than quick one with tanking and only 5 % of those tanking strategy work out toward a cup run.    I can live with that the Canucks is trying to do, having Sedin around to teach the youngster to continue work hard and improve.   Sutter knows the value of working hard as he was raised in Sutter family with their reputation of working hard on and off the ice.   So the Canucks is in a good hand once Sedin decides to hang up their skates for good.

 

 

Good points, 

 

Wanted to ad that the veteran pressence on the roster may have really helped our younger players get thru that horrible losing streak. Eriksson battled back from his worst opening night ever, then Baer has someone to look at and learn from.  Then Burrows does the same, Baer can see that working hard will pay off. 

 

The Twins will keep going out and play to win. They hate losing, Guddy brings some back bone to every game. Sutter. Hansen, Tanev and Miller are players that could play on any team in the NHL.

 

These guys have all been there before and know how to battle thru slumps in the pro league.  They are in for more ups and downs, but a younger team without great veterans to lead by example, we would be off the cliff, and no telling how many years it could take to get back on top.  

 

Added to that, we could still

be in for a top pick this year. 

 

For all those saying the only way to win it all is to tank, Stamkos and Hedman were drafted with St Louis still on the roster in Tampa. If top picks are the key ingredient, well they can be had without burning down the whole organization 

 

 

[wren223]

11 hours ago, LaBamba said:

 

Like LE?

 

I always enjoy such comments. I remember in the summer when people were losing their minds that we might not get to sign one of the big free agents. Where was the scoring help coming from? We didn't want one we wanted two big names. We need goals. Now we signed one and people still complain. Guess you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[canucksuberalles]

Build from the Goalie out. Our D is the youngest in the League rn. We shall see what these 2 different philosophies engender for results . 3 To 5 years down the road

[Phat Fingers]

12 hours ago, LaBamba said:

 

They spent 7 doing what we are doing now. Get use to it. 

 

The Leafs have not been competitive since they had Gilmour and Sundin on their roster. 

 

They have been been rebuilding since then.  Anyone that thinks the failed Kessel/Phanuef Burke short cut qualifies as a rebuild is being foolish. To be a rebuild, the roster needs to see some success or improvement over a least a few years. The laughs only managed to get to the playoffs once since Gilmour left, then lost in the first round. That is not success. 

 

There is little comparison to what JB is doing as compared to what Burke did. JB is hanging onto his 1st's and traded away a top player and garnered an additional first, plus some decent roster players. 

 

We are on a different path, and are building from the net out. So far the leafs have 3 offensive players, 2 of which I like, the other will be like his dad, a good skill guy that doesn't go into the dirty areas. They have one good young Defender and so far Andersson looks decent in goal. It only took them 4 or five goalies to get a decent one. 

 

We have a much better future d Corp and our goalie situation is another plus. I would only trade Horvat for one leaf, Mathews, but other than Horvat, Marner is way better than any other player we currently have coming up.

 

 

all that and they are still

in 13th place, like us in 2016. Unlike TO, the nucks have hardly been this low in the standings in the last 10 years. TO has rarely been any higher. 

 

EW

 

[Neko]

If it's any team that's lagging behind, it's the LA Kings, their core doesn't really fit with the new type of hockey we're seeing.

[Rocksterh8]

12 hours ago, DeNiro said:

 

He's hardly going to keep us from drafting high.

 

More like a stop gap so that we don't have to force Virtanen onto the roster.

 

Really? thats what you think? LE is a 36 million 6 year gap stop? Keep those rose coloured glasses on my friend.

[Rocksterh8]

11 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

Hey, Toronto...plan the parade.  Again.

 

Hey Vancouver...plan the parade. Again.

[Rocksterh8]

11 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

What a powerhouse they are with their 10 wins.  WITH the number one pick who scores 4 goals and they still lose.  Awesome.

 

Just sounding bitter now, I thought you were better than that. Guess not.

[Rocksterh8]

1 hour ago, wren223 said:

 

I always enjoy such comments. I remember in the summer when people were losing their minds that we might not get to sign one of the big free agents. Where was the scoring help coming from? We didn't want one we wanted two big names. We need goals. Now we signed one and people still complain. Guess you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

Who are these "people" you speak for? I for one was not losing my mind to sign anyone old that would cost way too much for way too long, so you didn't speak for me? how many others have you "not" spoken for?

[Rocksterh8]

4 hours ago, falcon45ca said:

This writer is a fool. Starting a sentence with the word "but", sloppy uses of the semi-colon, run-on sentences , incomplete sentences, and the list goes on and on.

 

i can't take this author seriously if they can't use a colon properly (enter the double entendre).

 

Ed Willis is a well respected writer, has been in Van along time and knows the team more than you ever will. If you chose not be believe him, thats your choice, doesn't mean it's not true.

[Hockey101 class]

1 minute ago, Rocksterh8 said:

 

Ed Willis is a well respected writer, has been in Van along time and knows the team more than you ever will. If you chose not be believe him, thats your choice, doesn't mean it's not true.

Ok whatever the Leafs have been rebuilding for years were basically on year one so personally i think were doing just fine. Take away 2top dmen and leading scorer outta Leafs lineup and we squash em, us well we still beat em in a shootout.

[DADDYROCK]

THAT SATURDAY NIGHT CBC GAME,

What a surpirize to listen to how great Toronto was,a large crowd of Toronto fans cheering.

Yes hundreds of people from Toronto are here in Vancouver, because they know Toronto stinks and not a city which was voted 5th or 6th best on the planet.

Let them go back to Toronto and spend another lovely Winter there

.

Just don't forget, how in 46 years Vancouver Canucks have never had a first overall pick.EVER!

Look at last year we went from 3rd to 5th in a heartbeat with that B.S. LOTTO SYSTEM.

Now that the Canucks are needing a few good picks, we get screwed with an American(NY HEADOFFICE) rule change. We could use a little luck at the Draft for a change, before Kinder Morgan turns the coast into a big oil slick.Now that would be lucky to avoid.

 

[JC2]

As far as I'm concerned there isn't a clear cut text book way to rebuild. complete tear downs vs on the fly both have advantages and disadvantages but in the end it really boils down to the drafting. Toronto, along with Edmonton, have been focusing primarily on their forward depth while Vancouver has focused on defense and goaltending. now in my opinion goaltending and defence take a lot more work and patience but is far more rewarding in the end. Elite goaltending and defense are more valuable while forwards are much easier to acquire. Toronto will likely be competitive faster than vancouver but they have also been rebuilding for a lot longer.

[Wilbur]

9 hours ago, Hutton Wink said:

 

...unless they won, which would be clear indication that their team is much better and further ahead in their rebuild.

Now your thinking like a true Torontonian!

 

Sorry, I didn't mean that.  Please don't report me!

[LaBamba]

5 hours ago, Baggins said:

 

How many president cups and division titles does TO have?

 

Honestly, with the length of time TO has sucked they should be a contender by now. Instead they're a team on the verge of being a playoff team in another year or two. What an accomplishment. During the time they sucked that time we transitioned from WCE to Sedinery, won division titles, 2 presidents cups, and made game 7 of the SCF and are rebuilding. But the Leafs are on pace?

 

Holding up TO as the standard we can suck for another ten years and we'll be "on pace"? lmao

 

Only a Vancouver fan would brag about pres cups. 

[LaBamba]

1 hour ago, wren223 said:

 

I always enjoy such comments. I remember in the summer when people were losing their minds that we might not get to sign one of the big free agents. Where was the scoring help coming from? We didn't want one we wanted two big names. We need goals. Now we signed one and people still complain. Guess you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

Under no circumstances would I ever endorse the signing of a 31 year old to a 6x6 after finishing 3rd last in the league 

[Phat Fingers]

55 minutes ago, Rocksterh8 said:

 

Ed Willis is a well respected writer, has been in Van along time and knows the team more than you ever will. If you chose not be believe him, thats your choice, doesn't mean it's not true.

 

I like Willes, but sometimes a writer spins his facts to fit a narrative. TO is going in the right direction, finally after 4/5 GM's multiple coaches, a revolving door in goal and a second complete tear down without any real 'rebuilding' in over 10 years.  They didn't just start two years ago!!!!  

 

 

Willes ommitted this and makes it appear if both Vancover and TO started rebuilding at the same moment. That is simply not true. Vancover media needs to stop spinning the TO circus act.