[Proposal] Another TML idea

[kloubek]

So our biggest needs right now depends on who you talk to.  Universally, we all agree we need to rebuild our defence. We would likely all agree that with Bennings generally good drafting that we need picks as a rebuilding team.  And some are arguing (lately especially) that we need more toughness.  I see the case for all of this.

 

Toronto has too many goals against which makes it harder to contend. They also have a few players coming back from injury and too many nhl ready players to fill their nightly roster.

 

To Vancouver:

Matt Martin

1st rnd pick

Travis Dermott

 

To Toronto:

Tanev

 

Reasoning for Toronto: Tanev is a great shutdown guy.  One of the best, and exactly what Toronto needs for their run. But he's not young anymore and has indeed been having injury issues so his prime years are best spent with a contender, imo.  Believe me... I love Tanev and hate to give him up, but I think this return is worth it.

 

Matt Martin is one of Toronto's least talented forwards and was a healthy scratch lately. Getting rid of him sheds a bit of salary and the needless contract.

 

Reasoning for Vancouver:

Dermott is young, shows strong promise, and has already seen a bit of NHL action.  I imagine with the return of a couple d he is the odd man out this season.  He is exactly what we need right now... a semi-developed strong d prospect to join a new corps with Juolevi.

 

In addition, our toughness is much improved. Martin plays a very Dorset-like game.

 

Finally, we get a 1st to help our rebuild.  It will be a relatively late pick but I trust Benning to make the most of it in a relatively strong draft.

 

Depending on your views of Tanev's worth or whether you would accept Martin on our team (He's easy to dislike but his playing style is undeniable) sways opinion as to this being overpayment or underpayment.  

 

I feel its just right, and fits each teams needs.

 

 

 

[Nuxfanabroad]

I'd like a little more for Tanev. For example, a 2019 2nd(conditional on PO performance?)

[kloubek]

7 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

I'd like a little more for Tanev. For example, a 2019 2nd(conditional on PO performance?)

I respect that, and feel the same way.  Id like a little more as well. My reasoning is that Dermott projects to be a solid middle pairing guy with a possibility of better.  We badly need that. He's shown he seems to have NHL ability already and his value to cap-strapped TML is somewhat high with his ELC. I think they rightfully value him higher than you or I would as they know what he brings and are acutely aware of his upside potential.

 

Besides this, while Tanev is truly outstanding in his shutdown ability, his stats are quite mediocre. Its harder to trade a guy where the cost of acquisition seem high against those basic stats.

[Phil_314]

Not a bad proposal, at least for starters, and agreed with your reasoning of Chris' lower point totals being a potential roadblock to higher value assets returning.  Hoping that Dermott at least as a decent shot at becoming a top-pair guy?  I haven't been following him.

That being said, I would like to bring up the case of Erik Gudbranson's and Taylor Hall's trades as reasons to hold onto hope for larger returns.  Granted those are smaller sample sizes, but until others can bring up evidence to prove otherwise, I have two recent examples of GM's trading for top pair, primarily defensive guys, whose stats don't jump off the page, but who netted top-notch returns (in fact, Chris is outscoring both Erik and Adam this season while remaining a top defensive option that he is).  My point is, Chris has been known around the league as one of the top mobile defensive D-men in the league, and if teams want him I'm sure Jim can get a good return (hopefully something involving Liljegren, I'd take that over Dermott and 2nd, at least on paper).

 

Martin, 1st, Liljegren, maybe another lower pick   

[flickyoursedin]

I also think this is a pretty fair deal. I really want another 1rst round pick for Kotkaniemi, Bokk or Merkley so I may be crazy for picks!

[canuktravella]

 ya i see other teams paying more for tanev  dont discount teams like vegas, isles, caps, hawks, ducks all these teams wanna  get over the losing to pens  they all want a lil advantage.  If guddy is resigned  watch tanev be shopped

 

Dcorp in   two yrs of 

 

juolevi tryamkin

pouliot guddy

hutton stecher 

brisebois chatfield 

 

excluding any dmen we draft til then looks decent 

[86Viking]

if we could get Martin by exchanging Gagner that would be ideal. Sending someone back with a similar cap hit would be ideal. Still think he could be impactful enough for his 2.5m, coach might not play him a ton but he plays with an edge and he is tough

[Mollyworld]

Leafs are high on Dermott, and he is progressing faster than they had anticipated. 34th overall pick in 15, he will be a solid 3/4 for many years. Plus TO's first rounder and Martin, who is protection for all the young guns. Toronto passes.

[Nucker 67]

I like trying to fleece the Leafs too, but they say "no"

[Rick Blight]

In the past 5 years Tanev has missed 18 games due to injury in 2013/14, 12 games in 2014/15, 13 games in 2015/16, 29 games in 2016/17 and 16 games already in 2017/18. He is a very good defensive d-man when he is healthy but his track record says he will miss a minimum of 15% of your games each year and likely much more than that as he ages. As a result, I think it would be highly unlikely that any team would offer the the type of package in this proposal. CDC would be outraged if this deal were in reverse and rightfully so.

[48MPHSlapShot]

Not a sexy deal. Me no likee.

[kloubek]

Funny... people started out saying we should be getting more than Tanev, and the last few entries indicate people think we are the ones screwing Toronto.

 

This tells me the deal is the happy medium, and probably in the ballpark.  Yes, Dermott has progressed nicely but he is still an unproven prospect they don't have room for.  If their focus is a cup run this year (as it is, and should be) then my hope is that they'd be willing to give up such a player in order to obtain one of the NHL's most elite shutdown guys. And make no mistake about it - Tanev IS elite in that ability, and has a friendly cap hit which is also important with them against the cap.  Dermott is a question mark as to where he will fit in his prime, and the 1st will be a late one which on a typical basis ends up NOT drafting an effective NHL player.  And Matt Martin is really a throw-in for them, considering they have no room for him.

 

Very possibly, this trade amounts to a top shutdown guy in exchange for a 3rd pairing defenseman plus a spare parts winger.  Put in that context, does it still seem like we are "fleecing" Toronto?  I feel this trade largely revolves around that 1st, and banking on Benning working his magic with it.

[mll]

Chris Johnston on Hockey Central says that the Leafs are testing the market on Martin.  They are at the 50 contract limit.  He thinks priority number one is to get a depth center though - someone that can take defensive zone face-offs. 

[2011]

12 hours ago, kloubek said:

So our biggest needs right now depends on who you talk to.  Universally, we all agree we need to rebuild our defence. We would likely all agree that with Bennings generally good drafting that we need picks as a rebuilding team.  And some are arguing (lately especially) that we need more toughness.  I see the case for all of this.

 

Toronto has too many goals against which makes it harder to contend. They also have a few players coming back from injury and too many nhl ready players to fill their nightly roster.

 

To Vancouver:

Matt Martin

1st rnd pick

Travis Dermott

 

To Toronto:

Tanev

 

Reasoning for Toronto: Tanev is a great shutdown guy.  One of the best, and exactly what Toronto needs for their run. But he's not young anymore and has indeed been having injury issues so his prime years are best spent with a contender, imo.  Believe me... I love Tanev and hate to give him up, but I think this return is worth it.

 

Matt Martin is one of Toronto's least talented forwards and was a healthy scratch lately. Getting rid of him sheds a bit of salary and the needless contract.

 

Reasoning for Vancouver:

Dermott is young, shows strong promise, and has already seen a bit of NHL action.  I imagine with the return of a couple d he is the odd man out this season.  He is exactly what we need right now... a semi-developed strong d prospect to join a new corps with Juolevi.

 

In addition, our toughness is much improved. Martin plays a very Dorset-like game.

 

Finally, we get a 1st to help our rebuild.  It will be a relatively late pick but I trust Benning to make the most of it in a relatively strong draft.

 

Depending on your views of Tanev's worth or whether you would accept Martin on our team (He's easy to dislike but his playing style is undeniable) sways opinion as to this being overpayment or underpayment.  

 

I feel its just right, and fits each teams needs.

 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, kloubek said:

So our biggest needs right now depends on who you talk to.  Universally, we all agree we need to rebuild our defence. We would likely all agree that with Bennings generally good drafting that we need picks as a rebuilding team.  And some are arguing (lately especially) that we need more toughness.  I see the case for all of this.

 

Toronto has too many goals against which makes it harder to contend. They also have a few players coming back from injury and too many nhl ready players to fill their nightly roster.

 

To Vancouver:

Matt Martin

1st rnd pick

Travis Dermot

 

Good post, well thoughtout proposal, I also like your reasoning. 

 

That said, no deal from my perspective.

1. Tanev is too valuable to Vancouver right now.  Our defense is bad enough, I'd hate to lose Tanev without an immediate upgrade. 

 

2. Although I agree that Vancouver's defensive prospets are in need of a serious upgrade, is there any evidence that "Bennings great drafting" applies to defenseman?  I am being totally serious here, prior to Vancouver has Benning drafted any decent defenseman?  Even Juolevi isn't looking great right now.  Recently a healthy scratch where other top defenseman in that draft have already made an NHL impact.  I love Boeser, and Guadette is looking great too, maybe Benning only has an eye for forwards?

[Toews]

The Dermott ship has sailed, he will be pretty high on their list of players that they will not move. He is young, has performed very well thus far and perhaps most significantly he is a local homegrown prospect who grew up a fan of the team. Would be terrible PR to move him now. 

 

I think Liljegren might still be a possiblity.

[kloubek]

46 minutes ago, 2011 said:

 

Good post, well thoughtout proposal, I also like your reasoning. 

 

That said, no deal from my perspective.

1. Tanev is too valuable to Vancouver right now.  Our defense is bad enough, I'd hate to lose Tanev without an immediate upgrade. 

 

2. Although I agree that Vancouver's defensive prospets are in need of a serious upgrade, is there any evidence that "Bennings great drafting" applies to defenseman?  I am being totally serious here, prior to Vancouver has Benning drafted any decent defenseman?  Even Juolevi isn't looking great right now.  Recently a healthy scratch where other top defenseman in that draft have already made an NHL impact.  I love Boeser, and Guadette is looking great too, maybe Benning only has an eye for forwards?

I can see the case for #1. Like I said, I love Tanev and what he brings.  I just feel that when we are finally a playoff team he will be getting closer to the end of his contract, will likely have added more injuries and more miles on his body, and will probably be on a downward trajectory.  Being he is as elite as he is at defending, I think getting maximum value is now.  But I truly respect the desire to keep Tanev and what he brings; you're right - our defense would hurt and it would require getting another good stay at home defenseman to try to alleviate the hurt.

 

For #2, I don't think we can fairly assess that to be the case or not.  The only defenseman he has drafted early is Juolevi, and the jury is still out on that.  For whatever reason (and I don't agree with it) he ignored our defense in favour of forwards. I doubt what you suggest to be the case, but that too remains to be seen. 

[The_Rocket]

I think if you’re trading Tanev, the prospect coming back needs to be better than middle 6 D projection. 

 

The Canucks only have 1 big trade chip, and that’s Tanev. Any deal involving him should include a top D prospect (liljigren, for example) and a pick (2nd at least). Anything less than that and Canucks are better off holding on to Tanev. No rush to trade him

[The_Rocket]

2 hours ago, 2011 said:

 

Good post, well thoughtout proposal, I also like your reasoning. 

 

That said, no deal from my perspective.

1. Tanev is too valuable to Vancouver right now.  Our defense is bad enough, I'd hate to lose Tanev without an immediate upgrade. 

 

2. Although I agree that Vancouver's defensive prospets are in need of a serious upgrade, is there any evidence that "Bennings great drafting" applies to defenseman?  I am being totally serious here, prior to Vancouver has Benning drafted any decent defenseman?  Even Juolevi isn't looking great right now.  Recently a healthy scratch where other top defenseman in that draft have already made an NHL impact.  I love Boeser, and Guadette is looking great too, maybe Benning only has an eye for forwards?

Benning has drafted Tryamkin and Forsling in 2014, Brisbois in 2015, joulevi in 2016

 

tryamkin is a top D in the KHL

forsling plays on Chicago’s top 6

brisbois is an okay prospect

joulevi is a surefire NHLer 

 

all in all all he’s pretty good at recognizing D talent, although he’s let a couple of them slip away

[2011]

1 hour ago, Canadian Clay said:

Benning has drafted Tryamkin and Forsling in 2014, Brisbois in 2015, joulevi in 2016

 

tryamkin is a top D in the KHL

forsling plays on Chicago’s top 6

brisbois is an okay prospect

joulevi is a surefire NHLer 

 

all in all all he’s pretty good at recognizing D talent, although he’s let a couple of them slip away

I'm at work so I can't look it up myself, but what about his time in Boston?

[kenhodgejr]

I agree Tanev could help Toronto go deep for a playoff run. But we don't need Martin, he is to slow for todays game. Instead we should target Timothy Liljegren. If were going to loose our best defence man we need a player coming back with elite skill potential.