[Discussion] Signing Kane in the offseason

[guntrix]

2 hours ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

It all comes down to his attitude IMO.  Guys like Green Gudbranson and Edler will not put up with him if he’s as self absorbed as the media makes him out to be.  This team has a great culture going as seen with how focused the young guys are on being good pros.

 

as much as I like the on ice Kane they have to take great care in this respect

Attitude/character/locker room vibes seem to be a reoccurring theme here but I'd like to think this organization is focused on more important things (like winning for example).

 

You don't see LA losing sleep by having Dustin Brown in their lineup.

You don't see Boston losing sleep over Marchand's antics.

Chicago barely blinked an eye when Kane was accused of rape and beating up a taxi driver.

 

All these guys have helped bring Stanley Cups to their teams, despite their reputations. We need to stop taking the moral high ground and start focusing on what really matters. 

[Vanisleryan]

I honestly dont think he is as needed for this team as people think. Id rather be patient and see what we have in the prospect pool. We have some guys that I think will surprise and push for spots next season. The last thing I want to do is have more money tied up in an unmovable contract. 

[Angry Goose]

12 minutes ago, guntrix said:

Attitude/character/locker room vibes seem to be a reoccurring theme here but I'd like to think this organization is focused on more important things (like winning for example).

 

You don't see LA losing sleep by having Dustin Brown in their lineup.

You don't see Boston losing sleep over Marchand's antics.

Chicago barely blinked an eye when Kane was accused of rape and beating up a taxi driver.

 

All these guys have helped bring Stanley Cups to their teams, despite their reputations. We need to stop taking the moral high ground and start focusing on what really matters. 

Not sure if you plazas team sports but it does matter.  Kane to his credit has stayed out of the spotlight and I’m sure his teammates in chi appreciate it.  

 

You thinkkane’s old teammates in wpg want him back if he hasn’t changed?

 

The way you approach team building is hilarious.  Probably a complete gong show with you at the helm

[guntrix]

1 minute ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

Not sure if you plazas team sports but it does matter.  Kane to his credit has stayed out of the spotlight and I’m sure his teammates in chi appreciate it.  

 

You thinkkane’s old teammates in wpg want him back if he hasn’t changed?

 

The way you approach team building is hilarious.  Probably a complete gong show with you at the helm

You're taking the piss if you think Kane's arrogance has completely disappeared from the CHI locker room despite staying out of the media spotlight. I'm sure there's many other players around the league with difficult personalities that have kept a low profile by avoiding public scrutiny. 

 

I'll take a "gong show" with a Stanley Cup ring every day of the week over a perennially-losing gentleman's club tyvm. 

[The Lock]

26 minutes ago, guntrix said:

You're taking the piss if you think Kane's arrogance has completely disappeared from the CHI locker room despite staying out of the media spotlight. I'm sure there's many other players around the league with difficult personalities that have kept a low profile by avoiding public scrutiny. 

 

I'll take a "gong show" with a Stanley Cup ring every day of the week over a perennially-losing gentleman's club tyvm. 

The thing is, I'm not convinced that a team with locker room issues could get us the cup. When do we really see a "gong show" going far in the playoffs? When do we see a "gong show" even making the playoff?

 

That being said, if Kane has changed since Winnipeg, then great. Bring him in here. However, it makes me wonder: if people expect EKane to be instrumental in us getting a cup while having locker room issues, isn't that a conflict of interest in terms of the need for a full team on board to go deep into the playoffs?

[coastal.view]

did people hear about the steve francis article today

he was drafted 2nd overall by the grizzlies and refused to play for them

he was a self centered talent

who never realized his full potential

just a bit of a problem child over his career

kane reminds me a lot of him

 

why does this team need to invest in this sort of player?

are we that desperate?

i will be disappointed in this management if they sign kane to anything more then a show me contract

i'd be happier still if he were simply avoided

[guntrix]

14 minutes ago, The Lock said:

The thing is, I'm not convinced that a team with locker room issues could get us the cup. When do we really see a "gong show" going far in the playoffs? When do we see a "gong show" even making the playoff?

 

That being said, if Kane has changed since Winnipeg, then great. Bring him in here. However, it makes me wonder: if people expect EKane to be instrumental in us getting a cup while having locker room issues, isn't that a conflict of interest in terms of the need for a full team on board to go deep into the playoffs?

That's probably because he over-exaggerated the negative implication of having players like Evander, Patrick, Marchand etc. People are so hung up on the potential of tainting locker room dynamics that they fail to see that many of the so called arrogant antagonists in today's NHL are actually key pieces in cup runs and playoff teams. 

[The Lock]

14 minutes ago, guntrix said:

That's probably because he over-exaggerated the negative implication of having players like Evander, Patrick, Marchand etc. People are so hung up on the potential of tainting locker room dynamics that they fail to see that many of the so called arrogant antagonists in today's NHL are actually key pieces in cup runs and playoff teams. 

The thing is though, Marchand's antics were on the ice. Patrick Kane's antics were outside of the game entirely. Evander Kane's antics were actually in the locker room. So it's a little different of a comparison. So, while I agree that using Patrick Kane and Marchand is not really a strong argument, I think EKane's doings are potentially worse as he literally had teammates calling him out, creating an actual divide in the locker room, unlike the other instances.

 

That being said, perhaps there are things I don't know about the other players that directly involve the locker room and not just on the ice at opposing teams or in taxi cabs.

 

Not only that, but we haven't actually seen EKane on a good team, unlike the other 2. At least not until now. San Jose will be interesting to see how he responds to being on an actual good team and how he actually will play in the playoffs along with if he can "jive" with the rest of the Sharks.

Edited March 9, 2018 by The Lock

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/professional-athletes-big-league-tax-bills

I just pulled it up and see that the jock tax isn't always an extra tax on top of what is paid in a home state.  You can get a credit on the taxes that you pay up to the maximum percentage of your home state.  That explains why players don't mind going to NY and California teams as much as most think that they should.

 

 

It also helps answer part of the question as to why NHL players prefer to play in the US.  The media pressure being the other part of course.

 

 

From the Gavin group, combined tax rate on 6,000,000 in Vancouver is 236,800 less in than NYR after typical deductions.   Tampa players pay 502k less than Vancouver on the same contract, in SJ your pay 271,333 more in taxes and Vegas the same as Tampa 502k.   The higher the contract value the higher the tax goes up in all states but Vegas and Tampa, in Canada it's pretty consistent no matter if your a 2 million or a 10 million player. 

 

The take away is that stars pay significantly more taxes in all the states but Florida and Vegas than Canadian teams, plus they are buying Canadian goods and real estate with American money, ie they don't have it too bad north of the border.  And it's almost cap circumvention in Vegas and Florida compared to the rest of the league, a 38% combined income tax rate is high, but not as high as 55%.

[SabreFan1]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

From the Gavin group, combined tax rate on 6,000,000 in Vancouver is 236,800 less in than NYR after typical deductions.   Tampa players pay 502k less than Vancouver on the same contract, in SJ your pay 271,333 more in taxes and Vegas the same as Tampa 502k.   The higher the contract value the higher the tax goes up in all states but Vegas and Tampa, in Canada it's pretty consistent no matter if your a 2 million or a 10 million player. 

 

The take away is that stars pay significantly more taxes in all the states but Florida and Vegas than Canadian teams, plus they are buying Canadian goods and real estate with American money, ie they don't have it too bad north of the border.  And it's almost cap circumvention in Vegas and Florida compared to the rest of the league, a 38% combined income tax rate is high, but not as high as 55%.

Like the Fox business article said, most Canadian players move to the US anyways so prices in Canada only matter when they go back and visit.  Especially after Drumpf's new tax break, all US based players are going to pay less overall.  The top rate went down from 39.8% to 37%.  Any smart player making top dollar will also hire an excellent accountant to take advantage of the plethora of deductions and loopholes in both the state and federal taxes.  The Cheeto master didn't tighten up the laws like he promised to.  I'd be willing to bet that Canada's tax codes are a lot less "flexible" than the US's.

[IBatch]

7 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

Like the Fox business article said, most Canadian players move to the US anyways so prices in Canada only matter when they go back and visit.  Especially after Drumpf's new tax break, all US based players are going to pay less overall.  The top rate went down from 39.8% to 37%.  Any smart player making top dollar will also hire an excellent accountant to take advantage of the plethora of deductions and loopholes in both the state and federal taxes.  The Cheeto master didn't tighten up the laws like he promised to.  I'd be willing to bet that Canada's tax codes are a lot less "flexible" than the US's.

I think both sides have plenty of loop holes.  So did Trump federalist the individual state tax?  The rates I'm looking at are much higher, up to 55%, and the only states that were that low for NHL players were Nevada and Florida.  I've used the Gavin group to see how different players salaries are affected for a couple years now, and I don't see anything about this one there is it pretty recent?  Also Hulls foot was in the crease.   Shouldn't have counted.

 

Edit.  If this happens the next CBA will have to include something to level the playing field, most Canadian teams are in around 47%, that's a lot of extra cap room...it's one thing to have three teams get bloated cap space, this would need to be worked out.

Edited March 9, 2018 by IBatch

[SabreFan1]

11 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I think both sides have plenty of loop holes.  So did Trump federalist the individual state tax?  The rates I'm looking at are much higher, up to 55%, and the only states that were that low for NHL players were Nevada and Florida.  I've used the Gavin group to see how different players salaries are affected for a couple years now, and I don't see anything about this one there is it pretty recent?  Also Hulls foot was in the crease.   Shouldn't have counted.

The constitution doesn't give the federal government the power to subsume state taxes.  Taxes here get nowhere near 55% even with the "jock tax".  I've been reading about the jock tax off and on since you posted about it so I could understand it better.  You can't double dip on taxes.  When a Sabres player plays in a state with a 5% income tax, they send the state they played in 5% of their pay for that game.  They then write off that 5% from their NY taxes and only pay the difference left over (3.82%).  Some sites have the jock tax totally wrong with the way they have it listed.  There are laws in the US that don't allow double taxation on income.

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by SabreFan1

[Baggins]

12 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

You did, didn't you?

if they sign Kane I might....

[Rob_Zepp]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

From the Gavin group, combined tax rate on 6,000,000 in Vancouver is 236,800 less in than NYR after typical deductions.   Tampa players pay 502k less than Vancouver on the same contract, in SJ your pay 271,333 more in taxes and Vegas the same as Tampa 502k.   The higher the contract value the higher the tax goes up in all states but Vegas and Tampa, in Canada it's pretty consistent no matter if your a 2 million or a 10 million player. 

 

The take away is that stars pay significantly more taxes in all the states but Florida and Vegas than Canadian teams, plus they are buying Canadian goods and real estate with American money, ie they don't have it too bad north of the border.  And it's almost cap circumvention in Vegas and Florida compared to the rest of the league, a 38% combined income tax rate is high, but not as high as 55%.

Your NDP government in BC will likely fix that for you - count on taxes to jump a lot for those who make what hockey players do.   It works for the socialism experiment but it won't for attracting UFAs.

[Angry Goose]

7 hours ago, guntrix said:

You're taking the piss if you think Kane's arrogance has completely disappeared from the CHI locker room despite staying out of the media spotlight. I'm sure there's many other players around the league with difficult personalities that have kept a low profile by avoiding public scrutiny. 

 

I'll take a "gong show" with a Stanley Cup ring every day of the week over a perennially-losing gentleman's club tyvm. 

Perhaps you’re right.  I’m mostly going with what I hear from TL JB about the type of culture and character traits they want.  From my own personal exp that is what I’d prefer as well, but like you say it would be naive to think there aren’t winning franchises with a different sort of vibe.   Winning has a tendency to smooth things over.

 

 

[kenhodgejr]

Yes sign him. And sign Tavares too please. 

Future 

 

Dahlen Tavares Petterson 
Kane Horvat Boeser 

Leipsic Gaudette Goldobin 

Gadjovich Motte Virtanen 

 

Then we can draft best D available 

           

[bp79]

18 hours ago, kloubek said:

This. We have a lot of scoring forwards coming through the pipeline and though not many of them bring the grit that Evander does, they should easily replace or even surpass his 40 or so points per season that Kane would bring. Besides that, players like Gadjovich and Lind aren't pushovers, so with certain players gone being replaced by guys like this, our toughness goes up a bit overall as it is.

What we don't have, however, are legitimate scoring threats on the blueline. I agree that the focus should be there.

Besides all this, any team taking on Kane is rolling the dice in hopes he doesn't do more stupid stuff on and off the ice, and isn't a detriment to the locker room.  Besides that, he IS a little older than would be ideal for us, but he's still young enough that unless it was a really long contract, he should still be producing roughly the same at the end of it so that's not a big factor to me.

 

Honestly, I'm not interested in picking him up anywhere close to 6m.  We have better options, and ways to spend the cap space.

You think it would be 6? I'm fine with that as long as its not a 5 or 6-year deal. I agree we have toughness coming up, but those guys are not proven NHL tough and might not even make the team next year let alone be able to put up some of the numbers Kane has. As for defence. Yes, it is a glaring hole that I think can only be fixed internally OJ, Tram etc plus this draft. Most likely we will end up with hopefully Dhalin, but if not Bovquist is capable of making the team next year as well Bouchard would have an outside chance. If we trade Tanev I would assume it would be for A 1st and A RHD prospect. We can then draft another d with that pick, plus maybe one in the 2nd and 3rd. This year besides JC from the Caps who else is there? And from reports at the deadline, he was on our no-trade list. So even if we could convince him. We would have to overpay and he doesn't fit our age group. The same reason everyone wants to get rid of Tanev. Let's hope Tram's team folds over the summer problem solved lol. Cheers

[bp79]

8 hours ago, coastal.view said:

did people hear about the steve francis article today

he was drafted 2nd overall by the grizzlies and refused to play for them

he was a self centered talent

who never realized his full potential

just a bit of a problem child over his career

kane reminds me a lot of him

 

why does this team need to invest in this sort of player?

are we that desperate?

i will be disappointed in this management if they sign kane to anything more then a show me contract

i'd be happier still if he were simply avoided

Apples and oranges. Kane never once refused to play for A team. In fact he goes out and works his but off even tho he constantly gets dumped on. All this media bs about his character, All those allegations in Buffalo were proven false. So what it breaks down to is he slept in. and the biggest dick of them all Buff, made A huge scene. That and his pics on twitter. Guess what when I was 21 I took picks of my type R and M3 all the time. Was I showing off? sure Does that make me A cancer or A bad person? It's being young and getting drunk and being silly I think being here with JB will keep him straight.

[Dungass]

Steer as far away from this guy as possible.  We want to establish a hard-working, team first mentality where our young guys learn to be professionals on and off the ice, ala Pat Quinn, they we should have nothing to do with Kane.  The fact that he is having a hard time learning from his mistakes, or even owning up to them, is deeply concerning.  I would lose all faith in management if they signed an injury-prone, under-achieving forward with character issues to a bloated contract. 

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Your NDP government in BC will likely fix that for you - count on taxes to jump a lot for those who make what hockey players do.   It works for the socialism experiment but it won't for attracting UFAs.

That's the weirdest thing about the state taxes, it's supposed to be less socialist down there but they treat their pro athletes like Leninites.   Especially those who make more than 5 million, it's a steep sliding tax scale down there.