The TDL Benning Complaint Thread Department

[kanucks25]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

You can move the paramaters all you'd like.  But the truth is the Leafs are/were actually already 6 years in to their rebuild before we even started, thus having the depth to move pieces out and having the pieces in place to allow for that.  While the Canucks had...nothing.  In that time span our only remaining pick is Gaunce.  Well, I guess Horvat and Virtanen too but you get the idea.

 

It would be a far more fair comparison to have us posted against Chicago.  Or to put edmonton against the Leafs as they had comparable drafting during that period.

 

You're making it seem or sound like a race when the Leafs had a near 6 year head start on us, had the joy of having a near generational 1st overall pick AND another pick earlier than 5.  So it doesn't really square up.  Since 2014 the Leafs may have indeed made better hay than us in regards to trading depth.  But since 2014 we've only missed the playoffs for 3 years.  Thus we've really only been rebuilding for 3 years.

 

Your argument holds no real weight when those simple facts are considered.  Because it's far easier to make trades when you have the pieces to trade, far harder when your only trade chips are either old, need to be traded together or refuse to waive their NTCs

I haven't moved any parameters, you've totally missed the boat. Let me make it clear:

 

When Shanahan came in, he made it clear that his plan is to scorch the earth and rebuild properly. What Leafs management did prior to his arrival is irrelevant (middling franchise trying to take shortcuts to competitiveness).

 

His plan was simple, and I outlined it in the post you quoted: accumulate draft picks and fill in roster spots with veterans on short (mostly 1-year), cheap deals without giving up pretty much any assets. Yes, they inherited some good players that are now a part of the team (like Kadri, Reilly and Gardiner) but let's not act like Benning didn't either. In fact, his 3 best D-men right now are ones he inherited, not to mention Horvat and Nylander Virtanen.

 

What they did during the 3 years I described has absolutely nothing to do with what they did 3, 5, 10, 50 years prior; they scorched the earth when Shanahan came in. They put in a proper rebuild plan, and are reaping the rewards 5 years later. The Canucks, on the other hand, are still bottom-feeding 5 years into Benning's tenure.

[RonMexico]

 

5 minutes ago, Darius said:

But again, Kanucks, you are avoiding the question.  You bring up the leafs as an example of a team that has been rebuilding properly (Warhippy brought up good points regarding when the rebuild actually began) because they have accumulated all those picks.  My question is out of the 36 picks since 2015, if you take out the lotto win and Marner, which of those picks have helped them turn that team around?  How many have played any NHL games?  At the end of the day it doesnt look like their pick hoarding made the biggest impact.  They have been drafting in the top 10 longer, they won a draft lotto, and their #4 pick one year has turned out to be an elite player..  Not to mention that they have been accumulating assets longer because they have been losing for a whole lot longer than we have (as pointed out by hippy).  All those 3rd,4th,5th, etc round picks you wish benning would accumulate has had MINIMAL impact.

 

It's no use. Those players who have contributing nothing do not fit the Benning is trash narrative. He traded picks in a rebuild. He is a loser.

[-DLC-]

15 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

We can drop the Edler thing.  My main point is focused around the lack of draft picks brought in over the years.

You can't bring draft picks in as easily as you present.  Most teams these days recognize the importance of keeping picks and you have to have something they really want in order to pry them away from them.  But I think the overall consensus is picks are extremely valuable.

 

We've had some bad luck injury wise and, perhaps, pieces that may have fetched us something become damaged goods and/or unavailable.

 

But it's not a matter of "just do this and that".  There are things that can hinder that process and I don't think you give enough thought to that.  People talk about trades like they're a one sided deal, but they're not.  

[kanucks25]

35 minutes ago, Darius said:

But again, Kanucks, you are avoiding the question.  You bring up the leafs as an example of a team that has been rebuilding properly (Warhippy brought up good points regarding when the rebuild actually began) because they have accumulated all those picks.  My question is out of the 36 picks since 2015, if you take out the lotto win and Marner, which of those picks have helped them turn that team around?  How many have played any NHL games?  At the end of the day it doesnt look like their pick hoarding made the biggest impact.  They have been drafting in the top 10 longer, they won a draft lotto, and their #4 pick one year has turned out to be an elite player..  Not to mention that they have been accumulating assets longer because they have been losing for a whole lot longer than we have (as pointed out by hippy).  All those 3rd,4th,5th, etc round picks you wish benning would accumulate has had MINIMAL impact.

I didn't avoid the question.

 

If you want to argue that having less draft picks is the same as having more draft picks, go nuts.

 

Using the result to justify the action is ridiculous. You may get lucky and dumb ideas can work out from time to time, that doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do or is a smart thing to do again in the future.

 

And those picks haven't had a minimal impact for Toronto:

- Dermott is contributing to their NHL team at a young age

- Bracco is a solid prospect that will help soon or be used in a trade to acquire more immediate help

- Grundstrom (another 3rd rounder like Bracco) was used to acquire a top-4 D-man in Muzzin

- Two of the extra picks they acquired allowed them to trade for a #1 goalie, one who is easily amongst the top 5 or 6 in the league

 

Their rebuild isn't done. It's not like this is "THE" all-in year for them. The work they did from 2014-2017 to build a proper foundation from the ground up will help them for years to come.

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

You can't bring draft picks in as easily as you present.  Most teams these days recognize the importance of keeping picks and you have to have something they really want in order to pry them away from them.  But I think the overall consensus is picks are extremely valuable.

 

We've had some bad luck injury wise and, perhaps, pieces that may have fetched us something become damaged goods and/or unavailable.

 

But it's not a matter of "just do this and that".  There are things that can hinder that process and I don't think you give enough thought to that.  People talk about trades like they're a one sided deal, but they're not.  

I agree injuries can make it impossible to trade a player.  However, I see teams (Ottawa for example) sitting players to protect from injury, because they are going to trade said player.  Maybe, we need to do that with Tanev?  

[-DLC-]

6 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

 

Their rebuild isn't done. It's not like this is "THE" all-in year for them. The work they did from 2014-2017 to build a proper foundation from the ground up will may help them for years to come.

Until they win the cup, it means diddly squat.  

[-DLC-]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I agree injuries can make it impossible to trade a player.  However, I see teams (Ottawa for example) sitting players to protect from injury, because they are going to trade said player.  Maybe, we need to do that with Tanev?  

You mean the Ottawa Tire Fire?  I don't know that they have anything figured out at this point....reluctant to use them as a guide.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

You mean the Ottawa Tire Fire?  I don't know that they have anything figured out at this point....reluctant to use them as a guide.

Good point. 

[Pickly]

20 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

I haven't moved any parameters, you've totally missed the boat. Let me make it clear:

 

When Shanahan came in, he made it clear that his plan is to scorch the earth and rebuild properly. What Leafs management did prior to his arrival is irrelevant (middle franchise trying to take shortcuts to competitiveness).

 

His plan was simple, and I outlined it in the post you quoted: accumulate draft picks and fill in roster spots with veterans on short (mostly 1-year), cheap deals without giving up pretty much any assets. Yes, they acquired some good players that are now a part of the team (like Kadri, Reilly and Gardiner) but let's not act like Benning didn't either. In fact, his 3 best D-men right now are ones he inherited, not to mention Horvat and Nylander Virtanen.

 

What they did during the 3 years I described has absolutely nothing to do with what they did 3, 5, 10, 50 years prior; they scorched the earth when Shanahan came in. They put in a proper rebuild plan, and are reaping the rewards 5 years later. The Canucks, on the other hand, are still bottom-feeding 5 years into Benning's tenure.

Wtf makes Shanahan so great? Burke drafted Reilly, Kadri, and Connor Brown. He was gifted Auston Matthews and top 5 pick Mitch Marner has panned out better than hoped. Doesn't hurt that a superstar in Tavares wanted to play for his hometown team too.     Doesn't happen often than stars leave the teams that drafted them as UFA's in their prime. The Leafs were HORRIBLE for years and were able to get it together once they won the draft lottery. I'm so sick and tired of people pumping the leafs tires for how to rebuild correctly. If the Canucks had Matthews and Pettersson they'd look pretty good right now too. 

 

 

 

 

[Darius]

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

I didn't avoid the question.

 

If you want to argue that having less draft picks is the same as having more draft picks, go nuts.

 

Using the result to justify the action is ridiculous. You may get lucky and dumb ideas can work out from time to time, that doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do or is a smart thing to do again in the future.

 

And those picks haven't had a minimal impact for Toronto:

- Dermott is contributing to their NHL team at a young age

- Bracco is a solid prospect that will help soon or be used in a trade to acquire more immediate help

- Grundstrom (another 3rd rounder like Bracco) was used to acquire a top-4 D-man in Muzzin

- Two of the extra picks they acquired allowed them to trade for a #1 goalie, one who is easily amongst the top 5 or 6 in the league

 

Their rebuild isn't done. It's not like this is "THE" all-in year for them. The work they did from 2014-2017 to build a proper foundation from the ground up will help them for years to come.

Im not arguing less picks are better. at the end of the day 36 picks since 2015. They got Dermott, Marner and Mathews to show for it.  2/3 were no brainer picks that did not come from pick hoarding.  Ill even concede and throw in Andersen who was the result of trading Kessel for a first.....the reason the leafs are where they are today is not because their GM has hoarded picks like you would like us to believe.

 

[RonMexico]

12 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

I didn't avoid the question.

 

If you want to argue that having less draft picks is the same as having more draft picks, go nuts.

 

Using the result to justify the action is ridiculous. You may get lucky and dumb ideas can work out from time to time, that doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do or is a smart thing to do again in the future.

 

And those picks haven't had a minimal impact for Toronto:

- Dermott is contributing to their NHL team at a young age

- Bracco is a solid prospect that will help soon or be used in a trade to acquire more immediate help

- Grundstrom (another 3rd rounder like Bracco) was used to acquire a top-4 D-man in Muzzin

- Two of the extra picks they acquired allowed them to trade for a #1 goalie, one who is easily amongst the top 5 or 6 in the league

 

Their rebuild isn't done. It's not like this is "THE" all-in year for them. The work they did from 2014-2017 to build a proper foundation from the ground up will help them for years to come.

 

Ironic considering you are justifying their action of hoarding picks by showing us what those picks have turned into.

[kanucks25]

41 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

Until they win the cup, it means diddly squat.  

They may never, but it's still important to do it the right way to give yourself the best chance. If it doesn't work, so be it, that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do.

 

Sometimes the best laid plans go awry. This doesn't justify a bad plan.

[kanucks25]

38 minutes ago, RonMexico said:

 

Ironic considering you are justifying their action of hoarding picks by showing us what those picks have turned into.

It was just unrelated point; I'm arguing that their draft pick plan did help them.

[kanucks25]

40 minutes ago, Darius said:

They got Dermott, Marner and Mathews to show for it.

This is equivalent to saying all Benning has to show for 5 drafts is Pettersson and Boeser.

[canuck73_3]

21 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

It was just unrelated point; I'm arguing that their draft pick plan did help them.

How? If only 3 of 36 players picked have panned out? 

[kanucks25]

42 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

How? If only 3 of 36 players picked have panned out? 

Read my post that was quoted in the post I replied to.

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

Read my post that was quoted in the post I replied to.

That still doesn't explain how only 3 players of 36 panning out has helped them now. 

 

With Hughes signing this season we'll have 2 players drafted since 2017 on our roster. 4 since 2015 with Boeser and Gaudette. 

 

 

[EP Phone Home]

I’ll just say that having picks does flex your options. It is very much like currency. Heck We all saw Jim’s first draft using picks not just for drafting but flipping them for players (a 3rd for Dorsett and also trading Garrison for a 2nd and then flipping it for Vey)You can use them to draft players in which we know how well Benning and Judd Brackett are at drafting, but also we can use the picks for roster players. Kanucks25 is only saying that the more picks we have the more options are at our disposal. I would suspect this draft that players like Sutter,Tanev,Granny will be moved for picks. We can compare other teams scouting records with their picks but we all can see that our scouting is among one of the best if not the best for what picks we have on hand, it would be fun and exciting to see what this team could do with more at their disposal is what some fans would like to see. That is all and carry on and have a good day.

[Darius]

3 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

That still doesn't explain how only 3 players of 36 panning out has helped them now. 

 

With Hughes signing this season we'll have 2 players drafted since 2017 on our roster. 4 since 2015 with Boeser and Gaudette. 

 

 

He is gonna argue that 2 of the picks helped get current roster players, which is a fair point...but im still not buying that pick hoarding is the reason the Toronto Maple leafs are a good team today.  They had accumulated assets prior to 2014, had the luxury of winning a draft lotto which netted them a top 5 NHL player, got an elite player with their 4th overall, and had the luxury of the top UFA in 10 years wanting to go home to play for his childhood favorite team.  If they did not pick hoard they would still be a good team today.

At the end of the day if you nail those top 10 picks and get elite players everything else comes easy - including attacting UFAs and taking gambles on trades.

[kanucks25]

39 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

That still doesn't explain how only 3 players of 36 panning out has helped them now. 

 

With Hughes signing this season we'll have 2 players drafted since 2017 on our roster. 4 since 2015 with Boeser and Gaudette. 

You ignored the part where they traded extra picks and prospects for young, core pieces.

 

And some of their prospects are still too young.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's possible it ends up that they didn't draft well overall outside of the 1st round. However it's undeniable that the assets they accumulated and the flexibility they gave themselves are two big reasons they are trending the way they are.