The Utica crisis, and the inability to retain/ develope our top end draft picks

[5nothincanucksohno]

Have to disagree with OP, the current outrage regarding Utica is overblown at this point. Utica coaches, etc. need to be accountable but mgmt has been solid when it comes to evaluating players in their system...I'm not concerned.

 

Most of these prospects will take 2 to 4 years to develop in the AHL anyways so I have no issue with mgmt setting a step by step development plan. Learn the basics, learn what type of NHLer each prospect needs to be, hold prospects accountable, and graduate them when ready. It is about winning a cup and teams need all around players to achieve that.

[awalk]

Hardly a crisis. Some mild concern, perhaps, but hardly even that. 

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, D-Money said:

 

Of course they don't all pan out. But you need picks to even have a chance. And the more you have, the more chances you have. You make it sound like Benning should just trade all his own post-1st round picks at every draft for more sure things (even if they are sure plugs), because why try?

 

It's not like the vets we held onto the past few years gave us any discernible advantage. We still sucked. I listed a number of wins on some of the better teams in the league. They added picks, and used them well. Why can't we?

 

Edler NTC. Didn't waive. 

 

Our next 2 best pieces Tanev and Sutter are not due back until around the start of the playoffs, no team is paying well for pieces out that long. 

 

I suppose we could have traded Schaller/Spooner for a 6th or 7th but that is it around the deadline. 

 

They can still make moves and add picks at the draft. 

[Nuke]

Mr Benning on why he got rid of Dahlen:

 

“I think there’s upside to Jonathan’s game,” said Benning. “I don’t, maybe, necessarily think there was a fit to the style of game our team, or our organization, likes to play, with speed and ski...speed and pressuring pucks and getting in hard, getting to the net and stuff. We worked with him all year on those things and he’s improved those things, we just felt good about getting Karlsson in this deal.”

 

Seen much of that last 10 games....

 

 

[canuck73_3]

5 minutes ago, Sergei Shirokov said:

Most of the players that otherwise would have developed in Utica were promoted to the Canucks as a result of dire need, or they simply were ready to play in the NHL. (Horvat, Boeser, Hutton, Stecher, Petterson, Virtanen and Gaudette). The canucks were a bad team, and desparately needed these players to play right away.

 

There are good stories as well. Players that developed in Utica: Brendan Gaunce, Zack MacEwen, Guillaume Brisebois, Ashton Sautner, Alex Biega, Jalen Chatfield and Thatcher Demko.

 

 

Virtanen spent a year in Utica and Gaudette save for a pair of recalls spent the majority of the year in Utica. 

 

The only reason Virtanen was here for a full season before AHL availability was Calgary was an absolute mess of a team they didn't want him to be a part of. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Nuke said:

Mr Benning on why he got rid of Dahlen:

 

“I think there’s upside to Jonathan’s game,” said Benning. “I don’t, maybe, necessarily think there was a fit to the style of game our team, or our organization, likes to play, with speed and ski...speed and pressuring pucks and getting in hard, getting to the net and stuff. We worked with him all year on those things and he’s improved those things, we just felt good about getting Karlsson in this deal.”

 

Seen much of that last 10 games....

 

 

It's pretty obvious now that Dahlen wanted out of the Canuck's organization, so JB got the best he could considering the circumstances.  Maybe Dahlen said he was going to go back to play in Sweden, so JB moved him instead?

[Nuke]

20 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Honestly right now would have been the perfect time to call up Dahlen and at least see if he can get anything going with EP at the NHL level.  I mean, we're just gonna tank out the last 15 games anyway.

 

4 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Virtanen spent a year in Utica and Gaudette save for a pair of recalls spent the majority of the year in Utica. 

 

The only reason Virtanen was here for a full season before AHL availability was Calgary was an absolute mess of a team they didn't want him to be a part of. 

Dahlens problem (according to him) was not spending time in Utica, it was.... Utica.

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, Nuke said:

 

Dahlens problem (according to him) was not spending time in Utica, it was Utica.

Dahlen’s problem was he thinks he's better than he actually is. Meh prospect, not sure why the outrage. 

[appleboy]

You need to develop players that fit the style you play in the NHL. They decided that he didn't fit their style so they moved him for someone who does.  I still think that Utica needs to be looked at.

[ilduce39]

3 minutes ago, D-Money said:

 

Of course they don't all pan out. But you need picks to even have a chance. And the more you have, the more chances you have. You make it sound like Benning should just trade all his own post-1st round picks at every draft for more sure things (even if they are sure plugs), because why try?

 

It's not like the vets we held onto the past few years gave us any discernible advantage. We still sucked. I listed a number of wins on some of the better teams in the league. They added picks, and used them well. Why can't we?

 

If I said the opposite of the bold, "why bother retaining any middle-6 depth players - we should sell everything for picks because if it isn't a home run it isn't worth having" it would sound silly because obviously you need balance.  Picks are great, but they aren't the only path to success.  We've kept enough to target the guys the scouts have ID'd. You also need a team in which to add those top picks.

 

Pettersson benefits from having "plugs" like Beagle and Sutter to take d-zone draws.  

 

Hughes will benefit from playing with Tanev instead of whatever picks he would have returned.  

 

Bo benefitted from playing with Baer during his early development more than a 2nd round pick.

 

The Canucks still have a half-decent roster and that's part of the price paid to not go all-in on draft picks.  Record aside, they've proven when relatively healthy they can play decent hockey.  That matters.  When enough top end talent finally makes it, the roster is built to support them.  I'd rather have that than a few more long-shot chances.

[xereau]

4 minutes ago, Nuke said:

 

Dahlens problem (according to him) was not spending time in Utica, it was.... Utica.

Play a child's game for a living.  Poor guy.  Were he willing to put in the time, and work, he would have laced em up with Elias sooner than later.  But this kid reeks of entitled, and soft.

[D-Money]

12 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Edler NTC. Didn't waive. 

 

Our next 2 best pieces Tanev and Sutter are not due back until around the start of the playoffs, no team is paying well for pieces out that long. 

 

I suppose we could have traded Schaller/Spooner for a 6th or 7th but that is it around the deadline. 

 

They can still make moves and add picks at the draft. 

Explains this year, yes. But Benning has been here for almost 5 years now.

 

And really, had he signed better players than MDZ, Gagner, etc, then maybe he would have had better things to offer at the deadline. I mean, if you're going to spend money on crappy players, who won't net you a return later, why not take on a contract from a team needing cap space and get the return up front?

[D-Money]

4 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

The Canucks still have a half-decent roster and that's part of the price paid to not go all-in on draft picks.  Record aside, they've proven when relatively healthy they can play decent hockey.  That matters.  When enough top end talent finally makes it, the roster is built to support them.  I'd rather have that than a few more long-shot chances.

Don't they have the worst record of any team in the NHL over the last 4 seasons?

 

[Nuke]

9 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Dahlen’s problem was he thinks he's better than he actually is. Meh prospect, not sure why the outrage. 

Was there ever an player getting somewhere (NHL?) thinking he was worse than he was? Its normal 21-year old behaviour. You want to move up, who doesent? The problem was that he felt bad about playing hockey in Utica, instead of building him up, they wore him down (Dahlens words).

 

Easy solution: Get rid of him, he dont know what hes talking about, weak player probably.

 

Better solution?!: Listen to what the player is saying. Is there any truth at all in his saying, we might have to change something, that would be &^@#ing hard, but maybe we could get something good out of it?

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, D-Money said:

Explains this year, yes. But Benning has been here for almost 5 years now.

 

And really, had he signed better players than MDZ, Gagner, etc, then maybe he would have had better things to offer at the deadline. I mean, if you're going to spend money on crappy players, who won't net you a return later, why not take on a contract from a team needing cap space and get the return up front?

for example Richardson and Bonino.  Why didn't we just keep these two?  Couldn't they be Beagle and Sutter?  When rebuilding ALL GM's make mistakes.  (The Hawks during their last rebuild that got them 3 Cups drafted a guy with the 8th overall pick who we had for bit, and was clearly a miss)  Those mistakes though, add up.  The more the GM makes during the rebuild, the less likely the final product will be better than just average.  

[canuck73_3]

3 minutes ago, D-Money said:

Explains this year, yes. But Benning has been here for almost 5 years now.

 

And really, had he signed better players than MDZ, Gagner, etc, then maybe he would have had better things to offer at the deadline. I mean, if you're going to spend money on crappy players, who won't net you a return later, why not take on a contract from a team needing cap space and get the return up front?

The thing with rebuilding is, the good players usually go to winning teams. MDZ turned into a pick and we got a serviceable player for the failed Gagner experiment. 

[EternalCanuckFan]

Crisis may be a bit of a bombastic description for what's going on.  To the extent that there is a concern, I would say the main thing that piques my interest is that a couple of prospects have expressed poor communication in the organization.  Communication issues are obviously not a new thing and are to be especially expected in large organizations.  I do hope that the comments by Palmu and Dahlen get considered seriously by management however, since there must be something that can be learned other than assuming that it's just the players.

[Nuke]

7 minutes ago, xereau said:

Play a child's game for a living.  Poor guy.  Were he willing to put in the time, and work, he would have laced em up with Elias sooner than later.  But this kid reeks of entitled, and soft.

Im not saying he is strong mentally. Might be the opposite. But with the right environment it doesent mean that he cant become a great hockey player. His development looked good so far. I guees we will find out the coming season in San Jose. 

[ilduce39]

3 minutes ago, D-Money said:

Don't they have the worst record of any team in the NHL over the last 4 seasons?

 

Lazy.  When healthy, they're usually on the bubble.  

 

Does this group show any signs of quitting / locker room drama?  Nope.  I'm confident adding Hughes to this team.

[canuck73_3]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

for example Richardson and Bonino.  Why didn't we just keep these two?  Couldn't they be Beagle and Sutter?  When rebuilding ALL GM's make mistakes.  (The Hawks during their last rebuild that got them 3 Cups drafted a guy with the 8th overall pick who we had for bit, and was clearly a miss)  Those mistakes though, add up.  The more the GM makes during the rebuild, the less likely the final product will be better than just average.  

Richardson yes, Bonino meh. I was 100% on board with Richardson and we offered him a 1 year deal he wanted 3.