The Utica crisis, and the inability to retain/ develope our top end draft picks

[Crabcakes]

6 hours ago, Alflives said:

I don't know if there is or isn't a problem in Utica developing our prospects.  However, I do see a problem with our number of prospects.  We traded away a lot of second and third round picks recently, who could be pushing for spots on our current Canuck's roster.  Maybe the problem in Utica is JB trading away so many second and third round picks to fill an age gap here, so now there is an age gap down there?  

I actually went through all of Bennings trades the other day and while there are a few, Benning got value imo.  According to Scott Cullen's often quoted (and updated) article on drafting success rates, Benning's use of picks for prospects has been very good.  Cullen has calculated the success rates over a 23 year period and his bar is low at 100 NHL games played.  For example, 2nd round picks genenally hit at a rate of 1 in 3, 3rd round 1 in 4 etc https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-nhl-draft-pick-value-1.786131 .  People slag Linden Vey but he did play 117 games as a Canuck and put up 14-25-39  0.33 ppg

 

2014-15

• 2nd for Vey
• 3rd for Dorsett
• 2nd for Baertschi

2015-16

• 2nd (Bonino & Clendening) for Sutter & 3rd
• 6th (Jensen) for Etem
• 5th for Larsen
• 2nd and McCann for Gudbranson

2016-17

• no picks traded

2017-18

• 4th and Pedan for Pouliot

2018-19

• no picks traded

Benning traded picks mostly in his first 2 seasons as Canuck GM but he seems to have stopped the last 3 seasons

[the grinder]

  are you  sure this isn't a team 1040   whining about Utica again  ?   seriously  if oj  didn't get hurt  there is a prospect that would of developed in Utica  the rest are 2nd round picks and beyond  trying  to be the 5 percent of ahl players  that play 200 games in the nhl

[coryberg]

2 hours ago, combover said:

Add virtanen to the list to. 

He said he didn’t know what was expected of him when he was sent down. Nobody talked to him. 

It would be one thing if it was one guy but it’s not. 

Trent cull and his staff weren't coaching in Utica at that time, you are reaching hard there.

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

Also Lind was playing 1st unit PP mins tonight along with Gaunce, MacEwen, and Boucher, while also picking up two assists...but you know....crisis right?

[Maniwaki Canuck]

4 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Giving that a plus for possible Supertramp reference. Nice

Got me there! 

[189lb enforcers?]

3 minutes ago, CRAZY_4_NAZZY said:

Also Lind was playing 1st unit PP mins tonight along with Gaunce, MacEwen, and Boucher, while also picking up two assists...but you know....crisis right?

PR & Optics might account for some of that gravy 

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

BloodyWellRight there, Alfer

Virtanen went back to School...

[JamesB]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Are you sure about that? As in, is that not a perfectly normal expectation...

 

Its an advanced level of hockey. I think its perfectly normal to measure how hard guys compete. Ask, no require, them to do so. Before gifting guys in offensive situations...

 

At the top of the page, Johnson correctly identifies that the overwhelming majority of players who make the NHL? Were scorers in junior. But their level of explosive speed, skill gave them enough of an advantage to be an elite scorer in junior. But does not measure up to Nathan Mackinnon, Teemu Selanne or Paul Kariya from a different era. It wont let them be default scorers in the NHL. It may not, and in most cases wont even let them be default scorers in the AHL.

 

Gajovich, you suggest is a disappointment? And by default, suggest that is a reflection of poor development. Its' actually a perfect example. Even in junior, he never scored due to explosive speed. He did it on size, and puck skills. Also the speed and skill of his linemates. Johnson is stating, and the OP article also discussed Higgins. Who was branded a disappointment by CDC equivalent rabid fans in Montreal. Suggests you have to learn how to train. So that if you don't have explosive speed? Which Gadjovich doesn't. You have to have closer to it. And where he still had enough speed, to at least get to a place where he could use body position & size in junior? At the AHL level, he no longer wins that position by default against stronger and faster men. 

 

There are much smaller % opportunities, but they are still there.  It takes time, and practice and training. To get to those positions more often by working harder than you ever have in your life. To even recognize them, then start snapping them up. To be better trained, so you are not somewhat, or completely exhausted when you ''find'' that position at the end of a gruelling shift? Still have enough in the tank, to win that battle which you put yourself in position to win. Then the more times you put yourself in that position? Start making, more and more often, the right plays with the puck you have now won, and positioned yourself to do something with.  

 

Even then, Higgins talks about learning to give yourself a % play by chipping the puck softly. Because you can no longer just beat defensive players you had beat all your life prior!

 

The creativity and fun with the puck, can only resurface & develop once the grinding is done. Unless you are Elias Pettersson? And honestly, adding to the point, how many guys developed in the AHL?  Become high end scorers in the NHL? Even if you make it. The odds are not great it will be on the back of only scoring prowess. Adding to the point again, Pettersson fore checks, hounds the puck, constantly creates turnovers, digs in corners, goes to the front of the net, challenges guys when they whack him. So does Crosby. 

 

Only a scant few of the elite scorers, also don't instinctively have that innate competitiveness for the grinding part of the game as well. Among the reasons for their success is their level of compete.  The Kessels of life, with a shot that would make Virtanen blush and are a top 20 skater in the world, while fat, are not the norm. Even the vast majority of truly gifted players must exhibit the work ethic & level of compete. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with demanding that work ethic as soon as you arrive in the AHL.  

 

 

 

 

 

I call to attention the careers of Alex Burrows and Cody Hodgson. Although injuries may have robbed CoHo of some of the gifts he might have had to unleash on the NHL. The point is that Burrows had that Stecher like drive. To train till he puked. To battle as if his life depended on it. Or his team mate's life? Went over the boards every shift of his career to hunt the puck, not sit back! It allowed him to ascend through roller hockey, the ECHL, the AHL, the 4th line, tackling the Getzalf's of the world without fear, blocking shots, penalty killing, getting to pucks on the fore check, winning battles, to START to learn how to be the guy who could trade passes with the Twins. 

 

Stecher only stayed a few games in the AHL. And was crucified by CDC for having been sent to the AHL, for what, 10 games? Because he showed the level of compete Cull is asking for the instant he arrived! Its also why he is progressing from depth use, to top minutes. 

 

Why should Dahlen, who does not have the speed, to be an elite scorer? Not be called out by top level coaches. Be gifted offensive minutes, and not pay the same price...

 

Skate till you puke. Or piss off!

You make a lot of good points and I agree that the approach you suggest has a lot of support.

 

But views about development tend to go in cycles. Right now the "grinder first" approach is widely used. My concern is that it does not work for everyone. It is probably a delicate balance.

 

For example, I think that Green has done a pretty good job with Goldy. Goldy has been given a lot of offensive opportunities without being required to be a good, consistent, defensive player. He has also been in doghouse at times, been healthy-scratched, etc. But for a guy like that, I think the game needs to fun if he is going to reach his potential. Baertschi was a similar story.

 

VIrtanen, on the other hand, probably did need to go through the grinder phase.

 

I have not watched the Utica games but, based on the results, I do wonder if the current regime there is doing a good job of working with each individual player instead of a "one size fits all grinder first" approach.

[Canuck Surfer]

2 minutes ago, JamesB said:

You make a lot of good points and I agree that the approach you suggest has a lot of support.

 

But views about development tend to go in cycles. Right now the "grinder first" approach is widely used. My concern is that it does not work for everyone. It is probably a delicate balance.

 

For example, I think that Green has done a pretty good job with Goldy. Goldy has been given a lot of offensive opportunities without being required to be a good, consistent, defensive player. He has also been in doghouse at times, been healthy-scratched, etc. But for a guy like that, I think the game needs to fun if he is going to reach his potential. Baertschi was a similar story.

 

VIrtanen, on the other hand, probably did need to go through the grinder phase.

 

I have not watched the Utica games but, based on the results, I do wonder if the current regime there is doing a good job of working with each individual player instead of a "one size fits all grinder first" approach.

Goldobin might not be the best example? Albeit a similar style player. He has paid his dues > nearly 150 AHL games. 

 

Was productive almost from the get go..., Including 31 points in 30 games last year for the Comets.

 

I recall the whole discussion regarding why he was down in Utica. He was to establish defensive puck pressure, intensity, and discipline. As he floated too much waiting for scoring chances at the NHL level. 

 

Goldobin has Dahlens evasiveness & puck skill, but is much quicker. Has more explosive agility and edgework. And these days he forechecks and patrols passing lanes looking for steals instead of floating.    

 

 

[cuporbust]

5 hours ago, combover said:

Add virtanen to the list to. 

He said he didn’t know what was expected of him when he was sent down. Nobody talked to him. 

It would be one thing if it was one guy but it’s not. 

So dalhen wasn’t happy did our crappy mangment talk to him explain to him there so called “plan” they seemed suprised he asked for a trade that would indicate a disconnect between player coach and mangment. 

sets a great precedent unhappy ask for a trade Jim won’t try to solve the issue  hell ust give you away. Other gms know it and so do agents. 

Maybe quit signing f grade ufas to multi year deals that Burries the young guys I’m sure gaunce it exstatic that schaller beagle sutter and grandlund are in the nhl getting nhl money while he’s just as good or better than two of them. I’m sure when he’s talking to his team mates he’s all positive and never says anything negative about this mangment so called plan, other prospects listen and see they too aren’t even getting a chance to succeed in the farm.

just glad goldobin hasn’t ask to be traded yet. 

Half a step forward two steps back JBs retool or refurbish or reset whatever it is he calls it. The Accidental rebuild is most accurate. 

 

And in typical  fashion the jb white knights show up and call dalhen a long shot prospect now but when he acquired him they called him a future super and what a great job Jim did getting him now hes traded him for a true long shot prospect but it’s ok because jb told them so.

 

 

 

Brendan gaunce is another example 

[The Colt 45s]

The Moose had a great run with AV as coach, and many key pieces of our 2011 team in development.  Utica is deep in the middle of a playoff race, six points out of leading the conference, and ahead of many other teams in the standings.  Are we really that bad?

[wildcam]

21 hours ago, Stelar said:

Chances are only 3-4 of these will realistically have NHL careers

I would say 7-8 players should make NHL

2019 -20 

MacEwen, Hughes, Juolevi

 

2020 -21

Woo, Lind, Madden, Gadjovich

 

2012-22

Chatfield

[Dats hockey]

All I know is I wish Dahlen the best but if he becomes a top end player I’m going to be pissed

[Ghostsof1915]

[aGENT]

11 hours ago, JamesB said:

You make a lot of good points and I agree that the approach you suggest has a lot of support.

 

But views about development tend to go in cycles. Right now the "grinder first" approach is widely used. My concern is that it does not work for everyone. It is probably a delicate balance.

 

For example, I think that Green has done a pretty good job with Goldy. Goldy has been given a lot of offensive opportunities without being required to be a good, consistent, defensive player. He has also been in doghouse at times, been healthy-scratched, etc. But for a guy like that, I think the game needs to fun if he is going to reach his potential. Baertschi was a similar story.

 

VIrtanen, on the other hand, probably did need to go through the grinder phase.

 

I have not watched the Utica games but, based on the results, I do wonder if the current regime there is doing a good job of working with each individual player instead of a "one size fits all grinder first" approach.

Complete misread if you think it's about 'grinder first approach'.

[cuporbust]

22 hours ago, timberz21 said:

When did Palmu, a 6th rounder, became a top end prospect?  Did I miss something.

 

Tryamkin refused to play in the AHL!!!  How is that the Comets' fault???

 

Go around the league and probably 20+ teams will have the same observations, comments, as the Canucks.  We are not alone and we are not an isolated case. 

 

With that said...our case is not that bad either.  First, because of our lack of depth and prospects from 2011-17, guys like Bo, EP, Boeser, Stetcher, Virtanen barely saw any AHL (could add Gaudette to the mix also).    Teams like Tampa and Nashville, have the luxury of having top end prospect play and dominate in the AHL because their NHL team is so strong and can be patient.  Our depth is so bad, that our best prospects make the jump rightaway in the NHL, skewing the numbers for Utica.  Juolevi played junior and Finland before being injured this year.  Again how is that Utica's fault.   We also drafted players like Boeser, Hughes and Lockwood who spent their developping years in the NCAA instead of the AHL.  If our AHL team would produced 2-3 star players every year, we would be a Dynasty.  Can't turn them all into Wayne Gretzky.

 

I would agree that our AHL development is average, but it has stabilized since moving to Utica.  Our stint in Chicago did not help our development system.  But again, our prospect since 2013 have been pretty thin, can't turn water into wine.

When he won rookie of the year in the finish elite league . I dont give a $%$# what round he was taken in . 

 

https://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/the-canucks-organization-should-be-ashamed-that-petrus-palmu-is-heading-back-to-finland-1.23534756

[cuporbust]

Comets’ head coach Trent Cull preferred to play AHL veterans like Cam Darcy, Carter Bancks, and Brendan Woods ahead of Palmu and also ahead of the likes of Kole Lind (11 games) and Jonah Gadjovich (16 games). You could argue that prospects can still develop while playing limited games thanks to extra attention at practice, but the Canucks’ decision to send Palmu back to Finland to get more playing time would completely dismantle that argument.

 

 

 

 

 

This is a problem, but hey lets all waive pom poms instead 

[timberz21]

16 minutes ago, cuporbust said:

When he won rookie of the year in the finish elite league . I dont give a $%$# what round he was taken in . 

 

https://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/the-canucks-organization-should-be-ashamed-that-petrus-palmu-is-heading-back-to-finland-1.23534756

Well I don't give a $%$# about finnish rookie of the year.  Here are the past 10 winners...Otto Koivula, Patrick Laine, Otso Rantakari, Juuse Saros, Artturi Lehkonen, Teuvo Teravaininen, Teemu Pulkkinen, Mikael Grandlund, Teemo Hartikainen, Oska Osala,

 

If you notice, the only notable players on this list accomplish the feat as a 18/19 years old.   Palmu did at 21.  That's an important distinction.  IMO it's the equilavent of Dane Fox scoring 64G and 107 pts as a 20 years old in the OHL.  

 

The winner just before Palmu actually returned to Finland after winning his title and two years later he's now in the AHL with decent numbers at 40 pts in 55 games.  

[cuporbust]

7 minutes ago, timberz21 said:

Well I don't give a $%$# about finnish rookie of the year.  Here are the past 10 winners...Otto Koivula, Patrick Laine, Otso Rantakari, Juuse Saros, Artturi Lehkonen, Teuvo Teravaininen, Teemu Pulkkinen, Mikael Grandlund, Teemo Hartikainen, Oska Osala,

 

If you notice, the only notable players on this list accomplish the feat as a 18/19 years old.   Palmu did at 21.  That's an important distinction.  IMO it's the equilavent of Dane Fox scoring 64G and 107 pts as a 20 years old in the OHL.  

 

The winner just before Palmu actually returned to Finland after winning his title and two years later he's now in the AHL with decent numbers at 40 pts in 55 games.  

K. Palmu is mediocre and being developed well. Got it. 

[RonMexico]

1 minute ago, cuporbust said:

K. Palmu is mediocre and being developed well. Got it. 

ftfy