[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[sampy]

7 hours ago, Lancaster said:

Lets do a some hypothetical scenarios... if JT Miller became a bust... would it still be a good trade or a bad trade?

But he’s not so.....what are you talking about?!? In fact, he was just name one of the top 50 players in the NHL. A 1st and 3rd seems quite cheap in retrospect. 
What are the chances Canucks draft a player that would be in the top 100 with that mid-1st?

How is this trade even debatable now with how well Miller has done?

[Ghostsof1915]

12 hours ago, Alflives said:

Nice stats comparison.

why, when I watch Miller, does he just seem to be a more complete player?  

He is a complete player. Benning hit that trade out of the park.

Rarely do I see a forward that does everything well (Maybe except Petey, but he's supernatural anyways).

He hits, he passes tape to tape. Can set up plays, can shoot, score. What really sold me was his work on the boards. 

No matter how the opposition tries to get the puck. He's in there digging, hitting, sometimes dipsy doodling. 

Hell he can even play wing or centre. And win face-offs. 

 

He skated onto this team and fit like a glove from the moment he took to the ice. 

10 games in I kept asking myself. Did Tampa understand how good this guy is? 

He's cooled off the past few games. But I think the all star break will really help him out. 

 

[Lancaster]

59 minutes ago, sampy said:

But he’s not so.....what are you talking about?!? In fact, he was just name one of the top 50 players in the NHL. A 1st and 3rd seems quite cheap in retrospect. 
What are the chances Canucks draft a player that would be in the top 100 with that mid-1st?

How is this trade even debatable now with how well Miller has done?

Some people don't seem to be unable to judge a trade at face value and a trade in retrospect.  They are not the same. 

[peaches5]

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

His versatility (C or Wing), ability to pass, ability to shoot (has a rocket), ability to defend, ability to play on PP, ability to play a power forward game etc. etc.   The guy is a stud.   He himself was a first round pick.   Canucks will be giving up this year or next what will likely be a latter half of first round pick for said first round pick who is playing like one for a commodity that may or may not be as good.   So a firm known commodity that is playing lights out for an unknown a few  years away.   Canucks have a good core NOW and have a good system NOW so it was a calculated risk but not a very big risk given the quality of the player they got in return.

 

Liked this deal the second I heard about it and still like it.  Bump into all kinds of people associated with the game who think it was the single best trade this past off season made by any team given the contract included (term and AAV).

This isn't about evaluating how the trade turned out. Of course everyone is going to say its the best trade in the off season now. At the time of the trade the general consensus was The Canucks paid a little more than they needed to. Vancouver didn't want to risk losing out on Miller so they paid the asking price.

[BPA]

3 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

This isn't about evaluating how the trade turned out. Of course everyone is going to say its the best trade in the off season now. At the time of the trade the general consensus was The Canucks paid a little more than they needed to. Vancouver didn't want to risk losing out on Miller so they paid the asking price.

So are you trying to say that Vancouver should not have paid the asking price and miss out on Miller?

 

From reading some posts here, there seemed to be a few teams interested in Miller (rumor NYI offered a 1st?).

 

[Sean Monahan]

8 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

This isn't about evaluating how the trade turned out. Of course everyone is going to say its the best trade in the off season now. At the time of the trade the general consensus was The Canucks paid a little more than they needed to. Vancouver didn't want to risk losing out on Miller so they paid the asking price.

The first bolded sentence kinda refutes the second one. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Sean Monahan

[Rob_Zepp]

23 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

This isn't about evaluating how the trade turned out. Of course everyone is going to say its the best trade in the off season now. At the time of the trade the general consensus was The Canucks paid a little more than they needed to. Vancouver didn't want to risk losing out on Miller so they paid the asking price.

Disagree.   Perhaps general consensus with your buddies or your collective brain cells but I was surrounded at the exact time with a lot of "hockey people" and there were mixed opinions but the majority was it was a fair price for an top tier player.    No question they were not the only team interested AND the affordable deal and term added to his value and where the other pick came in.     

 

They paid market value.   No, it wasn't a "steal" and for the sake of the kid who gets drafted with the first pick (this year or next), I hope it works out for Tampa too but it was an evaluated risk and one that at the time many supported, some didn't but to say that most were saying it was too much for a first round pick that was PROVEN at the NHL level - nope.

[BPA]

So here's a question for all those who said it wasn't a good deal at the time.

 

What would have been a good deal? 

 

I've read some posters originally saying that they hope it's not a 2nd and saying TB is in a cap crunch and should get Miller for a song.

 

So then...what would have been a good deal?

[peaches5]

24 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Disagree.   Perhaps general consensus with your buddies or your collective brain cells but I was surrounded at the exact time with a lot of "hockey people" and there were mixed opinions but the majority was it was a fair price for an top tier player.    No question they were not the only team interested AND the affordable deal and term added to his value and where the other pick came in.     

 

They paid market value.   No, it wasn't a "steal" and for the sake of the kid who gets drafted with the first pick (this year or next), I hope it works out for Tampa too but it was an evaluated risk and one that at the time many supported, some didn't but to say that most were saying it was too much for a first round pick that was PROVEN at the NHL level - nope.

What I just said was what was said at the draft when the trade was being analyzed it wasn't my "buddies". No one was saying this is an amazing deal. It was be reported that Vancouver was the only team willing to pay what Tampa wanted. It was general consensus based on Tampa's major cap issues that Vancouver could have gotten a better deal but there was a chance that someone else might have come in and poached JT. It was reported that Vancouver didn't want to risk losing out on JT and paid the asking price. 

 

I also never said it wasn't a fair priced deal. I said the trade was poorly contrived on the behalf of JB by at least not making the top pick lottery protected instead of just protected if they miss the playoffs. He put a ton of faith in The Canucks making the playoffs in the next 2 years which nobody had. Hughes, Miller and Markstrom have played heavily in our positioning so far but it was a pretty big risk especially when JT Miller was coming off a terrible year. There was no indication he or Hughes would have the year they're having. 

 

Forgot about how The Canucks and JT Miller are playing now you can't use that as justification it's not a predictable variable. Imagine if JT Miller has a soso year and Hughes is soso and The Canucks miss the playoffs regardless of where and they then win the Lottery, which you can do; many times are winning the lottery outside the top 8 teams. Now you gave up a top 3 possibly first overall pick for a team that isn't even a playoff team. It's a high price to pay.

 

 

[Rob_Zepp]

17 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

What I just said was what was said at the draft when the trade was being analyzed it wasn't my "buddies". No one was saying this is an amazing deal. It was be reported that Vancouver was the only team willing to pay what Tampa wanted. It was general consensus based on Tampa's major cap issues that Vancouver could have gotten a better deal but there was a chance that someone else might have come in and poached JT. It was reported that Vancouver didn't want to risk losing out on JT and paid the asking price. 

 

I also never said it wasn't a fair priced deal. I said the trade was poorly contrived on the behalf of JB by at least not making the top pick lottery protected instead of just protected if they miss the playoffs. He put a ton of faith in The Canucks making the playoffs in the next 2 years which nobody had. Hughes, Miller and Markstrom have played heavily in our positioning so far but it was a pretty big risk especially when JT Miller was coming off a terrible year. There was no indication he or Hughes would have the year they're having. 

 

Forgot about how The Canucks and JT Miller are playing now you can't use that as justification it's not a predictable variable. Imagine if JT Miller has a soso year and Hughes is soso and The Canucks miss the playoffs regardless of where and they then win the Lottery, which you can do; many times are winning the lottery outside the top 8 teams. Now you gave up a top 3 possibly first overall pick for a team that isn't even a playoff team. It's a high price to pay.

 

 

I understand there were multi offers and Vancouver's was not necessarily the best one but was the one that had no $ coming back which was a big incentive for Tampa.   There was a competitive process - the price was what it was.   The return has been at least equal to the price paid in my mind.   If the Canucks had offered less, chances are likely they lose the deal.   They would look a lot different without Miller and those picks - and not necessarily better.

[crobar]

Maybe 1 or more of the complainers here can name another player comparable to Miller who comes in at  or around the same term and price as Miller. You have to trade something of value to get back something of value, and I think that the 1st we traded probably will not become what Miller is.

[Kanukfanatic]

9 hours ago, Lancaster said:

Lets do a some hypothetical scenarios... if JT Miller became a bust... would it still be a good trade or a bad trade?

Lets do another hypothetical.....if you wrote an intelligent post.....would it matter?

 

Haha....jk of course.

 

[Kanukfanatic]

2 hours ago, sampy said:

But he’s not so.....what are you talking about?!? In fact, he was just name one of the top 50 players in the NHL. A 1st and 3rd seems quite cheap in retrospect. 
What are the chances Canucks draft a player that would be in the top 100 with that mid-1st?

How is this trade even debatable now with how well Miller has done?

Some people have internet ego's that hurt when they say ridiculous things and no other internet persons agree with them lmao.

[peaches5]

6 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I understand there were multi offers and Vancouver's was not necessarily the best one but was the one that had no $ coming back which was a big incentive for Tampa.   There was a competitive process - the price was what it was.   The return has been at least equal to the price paid in my mind.   If the Canucks had offered less, chances are likely they lose the deal.   They would look a lot different without Miller and those picks - and not necessarily better.

LIke I said it was a fair deal but I think JB could have done a better job in determining how Tampa gets the pick. Vancouver should have the choice to give them the pick this year or next. I don't think that would have ruined the deal based on what Tampa agreed to.

[Kanukfanatic]

1 minute ago, peaches5 said:

LIke I said it was a fair deal but I think JB could have done a better job in determining how Tampa gets the pick. Vancouver should have the choice to give them the pick this year or next. I don't think that would have ruined the deal based on what Tampa agreed to.

How many NHL trades have you been a part of?

 

I just ask because it sounds like you have tons of experience and make it sound so easy to get a better deal than life long hockey person JB, who gets paid to do it.

 

So, how many?

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Lancaster said:

Some people don't seem to be unable to judge a trade at face value and a trade in retrospect.  They are not the same. 

No, what we have here is a bunch of people on social media and actual media in this market who COMPLETELY, laughingly, whiffed on his value at the time of the trade.

 

Again, there were more than a few people who understood his value at the time of the trade and were frankly giddy at the paltry price paid. This has nothing to do with 'retrospect' or 'revisionism'.

[peaches5]

2 minutes ago, Kanukfanatic said:

How many NHL trades have you been a part of?

 

I just ask because it sounds like you have tons of experience and make it sound so easy to get a better deal than life long hockey person JB, who gets paid to do it.

 

So, how many?

Common sense is not your forte. Tampa agreed to the conditions if the Vancouver misses the playoffs the pick defers to the following year. What I said is Vancouver should have the option to defer. If Vancouver makes the playoffs and chooses to defer it doesn't make much sense. If they miss the playoffs by a significant amount and choose to defer it's not much difference for Tampa under the current conditions but for Vancouver it's a significant difference. If they miss the playoffs and let's say come 15 they can just send the pick to Tampa or if they finish below top 10 they could think him we aren't as good as we thought let's just send Tampa the pick so next year we aren't giving up a lottery pick. There's no logical reason Tampa wouldn't agree to that unless they felt like Vancouver in the next couple of years was going to be a contender.

 

You don't need to be part of some NHL management to understand something so rudimentary. 

 

JB put a lot of faith in this team and I feel like some simple tweaks to the conditions would have made this trade better.

[peaches5]

13 minutes ago, aGENT said:

No, what we have here is a bunch of people on social media and actual media in this market who COMPLETELY, laughingly, whiffed on his value at the time of the trade.

 

Again, there were more than a few people who understood his value at the time of the trade and were frankly giddy at the paltry price paid. This has nothing to do with 'retrospect' or 'revisionism'.

He was on a stacked team playing with the best players in the world and had his worst year to date. He was a no show in the playoffs when Tampa had key injuries. In fact his entire career his playoffs have been mediocre. His value was at a low and Tampa was up against the cap. People here are wrong far more often than their right. If J.T. Miller was as amazing as everyone here keeps claiming then why did Vancouver, and Tampa, acquire him so easily? 30 other GM's didn't think J.T. Miller would be what he is in Vancouver. 

 

J.T. Miller should have been an 80+ point player for Tampa with the linemates he had and he couldn't do anything. Hence why he was demoted to the third lin and why his value was so low also why he was traded.

Edited January 24, 2020 by peaches5

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

He was on a stacked team playing with the best players in the world and had his worst year to date. He was a no show in the playoffs when Tampa had key injuries. In fact his entire career his playoffs have been mediocre. His value was at a low and Tampa was up against the cap. People here are wrong far more often than their right. If J.T. Miller was as amazing as everyone here keeps claiming then why did Vancouver, and Tampa, acquire him so easily? 30 other GM's didn't think J.T. Miller would be what he is in Vancouver. 

 

J.T. Miller should have been an 80+ point player for Tampa with the linemates he had and he couldn't do anything. Hence why he was demoted to the third lin and why his value was so low also why he was traded.

You’re still fight for your Team (TBay).  Go to their board if your need affirmation.

Dont forget JB turned down Johnston and Point, and insisted on Miller.  That shows exactly what TBay thought of Miller.  

[peaches5]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

You’re still fight for your Team (TBay).  Go to their board if your need affirmation.

Dont forget JB turned down Johnston and Point, and insisted on Miller.  That shows exactly what TBay thought of Miller.  

He 100% didn't turn down Point. You need to back that up with a verified insider. If Tampa was trying to trade Point to us they were targeting Pettersson. That is the only logical reason why they would be offering him. There is absolutely no way Point was offered for anything remotely close to what JT was traded for.