[Discussion] Aqualini and Benning Missing the mark

[timberz21]

2 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

I agree, it was maddening in the past knowing what the Canucks needed to do, expecting a big splash and then nothing. Or maybe another bottom 6 UFA signed. Big whoop. I think Benning got this deal done quick, because he didn't want to negotiate and risk losing the player. It sounds like they really wanted Miller and paid teh asking price, just to get the deal done quick. I think management is feeling the heat from ownership to get back to the playoffs, and Jim did what he needed to do to get Miller. I think he could be aggressive again with getting 1-2 D.    

Exactly, when does paying fair value a bad thing?   If Benning doesn't acquire a player at a 50% discount people on here crucify him. 

[Bure_Pavel]

35 minutes ago, timberz21 said:

 

We drafted Hughes, Juolevi and Woo the past few drafts.  Not saying all will becoming #1 defenseman, but the expectation from management is that at least 2 of them will be legit top 4 in a few years.   But how long do we wait on the sideline or do we actually take it upon ourself to make us better.  If we don't make the playoffs our 2020 1st rounder stay here and we can draft another D.   But what if we keep our 2020 first and there is no D available when we draft, like this year.  We're still in the same boat.   If we wait for our 2021 first rounder to "potentially" draft our future top pairing D, he likely won't play in the league before 2022 or 2023.  Bo Horvat will be 28 years old before a potential 1st pairing D makes his debut in the NHL.  I mean come on, can't plan that far ahead.  I think we are right where we need to be in our development into a contender.  The next step is the playoffs and we must challenge for it this year.

 

Only time will tell if trading for Miller was good or bad, but at least Benning is acting, not sitting on the sideline and waiting.  

If there no D available then you take BPA and use young assets to make trades. 2020 draft is being touted as the best draft since 2003 or 2015 the top three picks could have probably gone first overall this year and its very deep. Horvat is our oldest core player and will likely be 28-32 when we have our best chance at a championship

 

[underrated]

11 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

As most of you know, I have been a huge supporter of Jim Benning, but I think they have missed the mark.

 

The Canucks, have decided to compete for a playoff spot, which in my opinion they will not do. They will come closer, but in the end, I do not see any of the top teams getting weaker, in fact teams like Arizona, Chicago and Edmonton, now have some cap room to add, so there is some concern they will be stronger, that is not to even mention Colorado being 1 year better, with their own prospects coming of age. The addition of Maker cancels out the addition of Hughes to our blueline, so I see the west stronger in general.

 

So, where the Canuck management misjudged the situation is that they should be focussing on adding prospects, via draft picks. I question the decision not to go after those cash dumps that bring prospects via the draft.

 

Missing out on Marleau is the first mistake, and It is my opinion, that the Leafs would rather have traded with us rather than Carolina, just from a compete perspective alone. Now, today, we are interviewing Myers, who will most assuredly be asking for big money, when he is not a 7 Million dollar player. When Vancouver will have Tryamkin and Woo knocking on the door next year, this alone will put pressure on us to restructure our defense for the second time in 2 years, all along missing on the big picture...….

 

"IF" the Canucks were to have stated that they were interested in the various cap dumps, there would have been a real possibility of adding picks, which could be used as bargaining chips when looking for even better prospects, which will become available due to the expansion draft being 1 year closer.

 

Are we ready to compete? I do not believe so, and I believe that one more year of building would have been a much better idea, when considering our maturity, and incomplete roster, now we are forcing the subject, when I believe most Canuck fans, would have good, with just watching Demko, Hughes, and possibly Juolevi enter the NHL.

 

I personally, would rather the Canucks trade for picks, and continue the rebuild a bit longer, and watch the development of the mentioned players, and see what I believe would have been an amazing year with just our team developing naturally. I am not sure being pinned to a long term contract (s) is good going into the expansion draft, especially when we just survived the possibility of Edler not signing , because of us not wanting to give him an extended contract with a NTC, at the expansion draft

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the acquisition of Miller, but I believe we could have used our cap to add prospects this year, and went after the trades, and UFA's next year. 

 

I would love to hear  your thoughts on this subject. Do you feel we have shot the gun too earlier? Is it your concern?

 

I complete agree.  The ultimate goal is to win the cup, not just to be competitive.  If you end a rebuild early, with a shortsighted desire to make the playoffs now, which likely still won't happen, then the major risk is that you don't acquire enough young assets to truly be elite when we are competing for the cup.  That extra player or two on a rookie contract can make all the difference in a few years.  Aquilini needed to be patient for one more year, in my opinion, and then we could start turning the corner.  This upcoming season the Canucks could let our young players develop more, get one more top draft pick, and use our cap space to get assets (like Marleau, Callahan, Clarkson on short term deals).  If we sign a guy like Myers, it will be using our cap space on a player that won't be the right age to compete with our core, puts us in a difficult spot with the expansion draft, and doesn't leave us flexibility when we need to sign a top free agent in a couple years.  The ultimate goal is to win the cup.  I guess Benning thinks the core we have now is enough to do that, but I think we need to add a couple more young pieces, and leave our cap space for a few years from now rather than signing a guy like Myers.

[Canuck Surfer]

What are our odd's?

 

Hughes, if as advertised, can have a massive impact on the team.  Injecting a high tempo game style could add 25, maybe goals. Perhaps cost 10 or 15 with a few more turnoversas well?  Particularly if we start using many of our faster forwards to harass the puck.  Like Hansen, Kess & Burrows used to do. Motte, Jake, Pearson, Bo, a healthy Sutter, Gaudette...

 

Add Miller in. He will join Roussel to add ferocity in board battles, net front presence and the fore check. Then also add a component of the cycle game.  Miller could also impact in an extra 10 or 15 goals.  Maybe more > Petey could score 40, Brock 35, him 22 or 23?  But 15 goals with his addition? Added to the tempo game Hughes brings?

 

I was not a fan of trading a first and 3rd for Miller.  I do believe he will help place us in contention for post season.

 

Add a decent D man?  Sprinkles of Juolevi as the year progresses.

 

I think we will finish somewhere between 7th and 10th in the conference. 2 years from now is when the magic starts.  Projected time for Hogberg, Podkolzin, Lind, Madden, Woo & Gadjovich. Hopefully Juolevi & Lockwood sooner. Not all will make it?  But that  should be a really good push! But we may sandwich a step back for the 2020/21 season between growth this year and 2021/22. 

 

2021/22 is when we do damage, if things go to plan!

[groovy]

Acquiring Miller provides immediate help and cost certainty for 4 years at a reasonable cap hit. Would have preferred two 2nds rather than a 1st but there may have been other suitors. Hopefully Juolevi is ready to step in and contribute this season. If so we could be pushing hard for the playoffs this year. JB answers to FA and his job is on the line. That affects decision making. I just hope we don't blow the load on UFA that becomes another Loui contract crippling the team down the road. Go Nucks.

 

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said:

 

Jan, thanks for the well thought out response.   As always, you are one my favourite people to discuss things with on this site as you bring both thought and passion.   First, I apologize if I implied you were not a fan by lumping you in the "CDC" comment....it is just a trend I am seeing where instead of the past few years of "tankists versus retool", there is a trending group of "stop the rebuild, I'm not ready as a fan for this team to try and compete in case they fail".....and I find that really odd.    Second, the only part of your response I don't agree with at all is that Tryamkin is the equivalent to Myers.   Tyler Myers is so far the better NHL player than Tryamkin is current and perhaps could ever expect to be.    The cult lore of a guy who regressed last year in the KHL versus a legitimate top 4 guy in the NHL.

[J.I.A.H.N]

Hughes, Juolevi, Tryamkin, Woo, Rathbone, Brisebois, Sautner and Stecher for that matter are all possible core pieces, with most young and coming within a year, or are here all ready and need experience, which means they need a spot to play and get minutes is there is a top 4 there? and if so when will it be a top 4?

 

To me, our forwards are pretty much done, and if not, can be added through trade

our defense is still rebuilding and still needs pieces...…...

 

Are the UFA's available, those pieces? 

To me, we run the risk of causing a traffic jam, and not being able to move pieces we should before the expansion draft...….

If Benning can sign a UFA Dman without a NTC that will hamper us, and can be moved, then fine, as long as it can help short term

Long term....I want to see Benning draft and develop

 

Lateral trades are fine, if they are upgrades in the position, but let's get the prospects first, then see what we have, then make the trade

Sign a UFA is you want, as long as it is not LT, and make sure it does not hamper your overall cap short term or long term

Not unless you are signing a guy long term that is elite...………...Myers is not elite, LOL

[Rob_Zepp]

39 minutes ago, underrated said:

I guess Benning thinks the core we have now is enough to do that

You say that based upon what?    What evidence do you have that Benning isn't trying to improve the team?   He just drafted a guy, who is potentially the best overall player in the entire draft if you believe many of the scouting "experts", who won't be ready for North America for at least two more years.   If he was doing as you imply, wouldn't he have traded that pick or gone with a safer option?

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Jan, thanks for the well thought out response.   As always, you are one my favourite people to discuss things with on this site as you bring both thought and passion.   First, I apologize if I implied you were not a fan by lumping you in the "CDC" comment....it is just a trend I am seeing where instead of the past few years of "tankists versus retool", there is a trending group of "stop the rebuild, I'm not ready as a fan for this team to try and compete in case they fail".....and I find that really odd.    Second, the only part of your response I don't agree with at all is that Tryamkin is the equivalent to Myers.   Tyler Myers is so far the better NHL player than Tryamkin is current and perhaps could ever expect to be.    The cult lore of a guy who regressed last year in the KHL versus a legitimate top 4 guy in the NHL.

Thanks Rob, I appreciate that.....

 

On the subject of Tryamkin

 

You could totally right, or proven totally wrong...….but LOL, yours and my messages have never deviated, something I appreciate and respect

 

and may never be proven...….Tryamkin, could be the one that got away for me

 

But, the proof is in the pudding, and it will take time to prove one way or another...…..

 

It will take some time for him to adjust, for sure, I just want him over to not waste away, as the longer he is away, the chance of him never coming

 

I accept your premise, he could be digressing, but that is a theory for now...……"Unproven educated fact"

 

Maybe he comes over here and is a 3, and you will say, well if he stayed maybe he could have been a 2 or even a 1, I think we will never know that

 

and have plenty time to debate it later on...…...one thing for sure we both agree on, is he should never have left

[appleboy]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

even if you are correct whats the point of continually rehashing the past? theres nothing you can do about it. 

 

Whats the right strategy moving forward? it isn't 5 more years of tanking. 

I also said that they now have no choice but to go for it. If they don't players like Bo will be at the end of their deals. Colorado did the same thing. You didn't read what I said you just assumed I wanted to tank forever. 

They have no choice now but to add as much as they can and try for the playoffs.  But they will be finishing this rebuild in a few years just like Colorado did. I just hope that they don't sell too much of the future now. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, timberz21 said:

Wow you really think that drafting a 2nd, 3x 3rd, 3x 4th a 5, 7th would have put the Oilers into a contender?

 

Why are we paying Benning them....not team needs a GM for a rebuild.  Just hire a coach, a head scout and let them pick prospect and wait for them to develop magically.  No need to sign UFA or trade players.

 

I mean if we are not competitive by 2021, we will never be.  I'd rather we try and make this team better than waiting and drafting and waiting.    I mean by the time our 2020/2021 draft picks make it to the NHL and are competitive, Horvat and Boeser will have started their decline already.

Is Miller and Myers really going to make us into contenders? This team has a long ways to go and part of that is just letting our players develop and not handcuffing outsells to not be able to properly support them when they are really ready to make the next just. 

 

Bo and Brock will be on the decline? Are you serious. Brock is 21 years old. He was making an impact in 3 years after being drafted. Horvat was also a 40 point player but his draft 3 years. That means 2020 and 2021 will be ready at 4-5 years. Do you really think Brock is declined at 25/26 years old. Wow what a high perspective of him you have. 

[timberz21]

4 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Is Miller and Myers really going to make us into contenders? This team has a long ways to go and part of that is just letting our players develop and not handcuffing outsells to not be able to properly support them when they are really ready to make the next just. 

 

Bo and Brock will be on the decline? Are you serious. Brock is 21 years old. He was making an impact in 3 years after being drafted. Horvat was also a 40 point player but his draft 3 years. That means 2020 and 2021 will be ready at 4-5 years. Do you really think Brock is declined at 25/26 years old. Wow what a high perspective of him you have. 

Directly, no.   Indirectly, yes.  They make us a better now, they make us contenders for making the playoff.   By making us a better team and getting a taste of that playoffs experience make Petey, Bo, Boeser and Hughes better.    They are supporting cast to our young core.  Honestly, I'm not sure and i'm not worried whether we re-sign Miller or not after his contract.  By that time, maybe Lind, Podkolzing, Gaudette, etc., will have supplanted him in the Top 6.  However, until then he fills an important need IMO.

 

Boeser will be 23 at the end of the season. So, he'll be 27/28.  IMO hockey player's prime is 24-28 (at least forwards are).  I'm not saying he's going to be a washed up has been, but he'll be at the end of his peak...hence on the decline.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

16 minutes ago, timberz21 said:

Directly, no.   Indirectly, yes.  They make us a better now, they make us contenders for making the playoff.   

 

They dont even make us a playoff team. 

Such a short term focus as the expense of the overall goal....Winning the cup. 

 

Quote

By making us a better team and getting a taste of that playoffs experience make Petey, Bo, Boeser and Hughes better.   

 

 

See this is exactly what I have a problem with.you and so many others are under the impression that the core can’t do it own it’s own. Hughes played 5 NHL games. Petey just finished his rookie season.  Let the kids get their footing in the league before writing them off. 

 

Hawks young core already got them to the conference finals before they went out and picked up high price players like hossa. 

 

Kings already had a post season appearance before the traded big for Richards and carter. 

 

Lets them learn how to be successful. If you need support good add some but don’t let it handcuff your ability to add in future. 

 

Quote

Boeser will be 23 at the end of the season. So, he'll be 27/28.  IMO hockey player's prime is 24-28 (at least forwards are).  I'm not saying he's going to be a washed up has been, but he'll be at the end of his peak...hence on the decline.

 

Better not sign him long term them. Boeser being on the decline in 4 years? Get that garbage out of here. 

[timberz21]

1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

They dont even make us a playoff team. 

Such a short term focus as the expense of the overall goal....Winning the cup. 

 

 

See this is exactly what I have a problem with.you and so many others are under the impression that the core can’t do it own it’s own. Hughes played 5 NHL games. Petey just finished his rookie season.  Let the kids get their footing in the league before writing them off. 

 

Hawks young core already got them to the conference finals before they went out and picked up high price players like hossa. 

 

Kings already had a post season appearance before the traded big for Richards and carter. 

 

Lets them learn how to be successful. If you need support good add some but don’t let it handcuff your ability to add in future. 

 

 

Better not sign him long term them. Boeser being on the decline in 4 years? Get that garbage out of here. 

You just said, they are not a playoff contending team.... how long are you going to “wait” and let it figure it out themselves???   Seems like you be ready to miss the playoff for 2020 and 2021. That’s a lot of losing

 

what if 2020 is a bad draft year and nobody becomes impact players.  JB has been really good at drafting, but eventually he will have bad luck or a bad year... what then? Wait another year?

 

Like I said, I never said boeser will be trash at 28.  But most likely his best year will be at 25-26-27 years old.  By definition if your not at your peak your on the decline... do I need to draw you a bell curve to show you this.  He will still be a good player, just not at his prime anymore.

 

anyways, clearly we don’t see eye to eye on this but IMO I’d rather be proactive when we have a solid core and keep buildimg on this than wait for more unknown draft pick.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 hour ago, timberz21 said:

You just said, they are not a playoff contending team.... how long are you going to “wait” and let it figure it out themselves???   Seems like you be ready to miss the playoff for 2020 and 2021. That’s a lot of losing

They are already progressing on their own.  Again Hughes has player FIVE NHL games.  Let him develop and as he gets better so will the team.  Pettersson played ONE season and just turned 20.  Let him continue with the upward progressing.  Assuming that they aren't good enough to carry us is next season while not handcuffing us. 

 

1 hour ago, timberz21 said:

what if 2020 is a bad draft year and nobody becomes impact players.  JB has been really good at drafting, but eventually he will have bad luck or a bad year... what then? Wait another year?

"The 2020 Draft class is looking like a well-rounded class in that there is a more even spread of talent throughout the leagues than what we've seen the past couple seasons," director of NHL Central Scouting Dan Marr said. "While there is top talent in every draft class, the past couple years have been lean years in certain leagues and in 2020 the initial view is that there is more depth to the Draft and it's spread all throughout North America."

https://www.nhl.com/news/alexis-lafreniere-headlines-2020-nhl-draft-prospects/c-308003352

 

1 hour ago, timberz21 said:

Like I said, I never said boeser will be trash at 28.  But most likely his best year will be at 25-26-27 years old.  By definition if your not at your peak your on the decline... do I need to draw you a bell curve to show you this.  He will still be a good player, just not at his prime anymore.

Sure, give me a curve graph of Henrik and Daniels peak years.....

 

1 hour ago, timberz21 said:

anyways, clearly we don’t see eye to eye on this but IMO I’d rather be proactive when we have a solid core and keep buildimg on this than wait for more unknown draft pick.

Canucks have a good core and players in the cupboard but it's far too early to know what are holes are.  The majority of them haven't even got their feet wet in the NHL.  Why give up picks and cap to players that could have been spent else where.  By this time next year Jake could make miller expendable, or Woo/Tryamkin could be impact players making a big myers signing not necessary or heck maybe a player like hughes doesn't turn out that pick could have been better spent on filling a more impactful role.  I know that this team needs a #2/3 right shot D if we ever want to be taken serious and that D doesn't exist in UFA this year. So want try and force a square peg into a round hole locking up cap preventing us from going after a big legit fish when we realize it's what this team is missing. 

[The Lock]

6 hours ago, timberz21 said:

Exactly, when does paying fair value a bad thing?   If Benning doesn't acquire a player at a 50% discount people on here crucify him. 

Even if we overpay a bit, it's not the end of the world. The fact that people are complaining about fair value to me tells me we've been spoiled that we aren't at least getting fleeced by teams. lol

 

But people who like to complain seem to expect perfection and if they find even the slightest bit of lack of perfection among the cracks of everything else they'll complain about it until they turn blue in the face, no matter how insignificant it may be. lol

Edited June 29, 2019 by The Lock

[Crabcakes]

13 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I think Jan the idea that there's only 1 "mark" isn't correct. If you look at the contending teams they are all built different ways. Boston e.g., is an interesting mix of old and ELC players. 

Jimmy, this post makes me think that you're capable of thinking in nuanced ways.  Highly irregular on CDC.  I knew that you were smart but more than 1 truth?  Dear God.

[kloubek]

I believe we are a playoff team when healthy, and I believe we are only 2-3 good prospects away from a contender in maybe 3 years. 

 

Benning (and probably moreso ownership) have decided now is the time to start the push and I actually don't disagree. Those required extra prospects will come via the draft in the next couple of years... though losing our 1st hurts.

 

Our D obviously needs some work still and I am afraid that what Benning does now to address this is our biggest concern. I would actually be fine with him getting a stop gap on that left side which maybe becomes our left side depth for injuries once we shore up the left properly. The last thing I want to see is a Myers at 7x7.

Edited June 29, 2019 by kloubek

[Canuck Surfer]

On 6/29/2019 at 5:57 AM, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Is Miller and Myers really going to make us into contenders? 

The key is Petey's progression to a 100 point scorer, Brock 40 to 45 goals & Hughes55 to 65 point D man.  

 

If that is in their (near) future), we're a chance of being a strong team, even a contender albeit a stretch..

 

Miller and Myers are just the wheels to that race engine, Roussel & Edler the chasis..

 

Which keep you upright and turning.

[hammertime]

It's this team a cup contender? 

Of course not. 

 

Can they make the playoffs I think so. At some point loosing becomes a culture. It's time we start playing meaningful games. 

 

Taking cap dumps just sends a bad message to the locker room. JB getting Roussel, Beagle, Pearson and now Miller are exactly the moves he should be making. We saw how quickly the Avs turned it around in one season. Pete Hughes and Brock comming into this season healthy I feel like this team can raise some eyebrows this year.

 

Looking to the future Juolevi, Pod, Hog, Madden, Lind, Gadjo, possibly Tryamkin this team will only improve.