A Fair Criticism of Jim Benning

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

Another that enjoys losing. You really do want to become Edmonton. AT some point you need to surround your young stars that will help the team make that next step. Otherwise you just keep wasting years of those young stars playing a waiting. Creating a cycle of losing.

Subjective opinion, but an A for conviction, regardless. 

 

 

[smithers joe]

1 hour ago, Bubble Man said:

One of my favourite Old News contradictions was the Gudbranson Vs Analytics Vs Granlund Vs scoring kerfuffle. Analytics weren’t important when it came to Gudbranson because he brought intangibles that could not be quantified. You would literally bash analytics. Then almost simultaneously defending Granlund with the use of analytics, Granlund doesn’t score but “analytics”. The funniest thing about all this garbage you spewed to justify these players on the roster is that they are both gone now. Lol. There are so many more, with LE, and as far back as Luongo’s trade value. My god you have entertained me over the years. 

isn’t this, the pot calling the kettle black.?  people disagreeing with you, doesn’t mean, their wrong, it just means they have different opinions. this board isn’t about who’s right and whose wrong, it is about  giving your opinions and listening to other’s opinion.  i don’t care if everyone agrees with my opinions, but i’m free to express them. you can too, regardless if people don’t agree with you. but be civil.

[Honky Cat]

30 minutes ago, Bubble Man said:

Ya, you’re right. The Oilers are always the “go to”.

If Benning didn’t trade the 1st for TJ Miller. Oilers. 

So ,the TJ Miller deal is comparable to the Griffin Reinhart deal..?..You're just making up nonsense now..

[10pavelbure96]

2 hours ago, Bubble Man said:

I understand completely. I just don’t think we are ready to trade a 1st yet. I don’t understand how this many people can look at our 20 year old star centre and our 19 year old PP QB and see a team ready to win. We are about 5 years too early. A 25 year old star center and a 24 year old PPQB sound about ready to be surrounded by players acquired with 1st round picks. That’s the time to tighten things up through FA. We just f’d up a really good plan. I’m glad everyone is super pumped about giving up futures for now. I seriously wish I could be happy about it. 

You sound like Miller is on an expiring contract when he is actually on a really cap friendly contract with term. These supporting cast players are going to play more than one season and there will be pieces added continually.

 

Sure it's a gamble, every move is. But as many have said before you have to eventually stop losing.

[Baggins]

31 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Subjective opinion, but an A for conviction, regardless. 

 

 

Is it subjective? The Oilers have had several 1st overall picks plus several other high firsts, not to mention added picks. They've drafted some good players. Where they've failed is surrounding those high picks with the needed talent to compete. Wasting years of those good players careers and cycling backwards again to try again. When you get high end talent you need to surround them with quality as quickly as possible if you want a lengthy window to work within. We took too long for the WCE, then took too long with the Sedins. The result: a very small window of opportunity. We have some high end talent. The time is now to surround them.

[Alflives]

Just now, Baggins said:

Is it subjective? The Oilers have had several 1st overall picks plus several other high firsts, not to mention added picks. They've drafted some good players. Where they've failed is surrounding those high picks with the needed talent to compete. Wasting years of those good players careers and cycling backwards again to try again. When you get high end talent you need to surround them with quality as quickly as possible if you want a lengthy window to work within. We took too long for the WCE, then took too long with the Sedins. The result: a very small window of opportunity. We have some high end talent. The time is now to surround them.

Exactly.  Plus, we (for the first I can recall) have a really good group of prospects, who will be filling the support roles as the Miller types move out.  Those prospects will be on ELC’s, so we can still keep all our core guys.  I see a decade fir this window.  

[10pavelbure96]

6 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Is it subjective? The Oilers have had several 1st overall picks plus several other high firsts, not to mention added picks. They've drafted some good players. Where they've failed is surrounding those high picks with the needed talent to compete. Wasting years of those good players careers and cycling backwards again to try again. When you get high end talent you need to surround them with quality as quickly as possible if you want a lengthy window to work within. We took too long for the WCE, then took too long with the Sedins. The result: a very small window of opportunity. We have some high end talent. The time is now to surround them.

So very true.

 

Those prime wce years and sedins years were so short.

[ItTakesAnArmy]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

11 hours ago, Bubble Man said:

Wow, there are a lot of assumptions here. We were the 9th worst team last year and you have automatically anointed them a playoff team without watching a single game? We still have zero room for error. A few key injuries and we are in the same place we were. We still don’t have even close to the depth we need. 

 

I actually hope we miss the playoffs the next 2 seasons and Tampa Bay wins the draft lottery so Jim can finally get the axe he so richly deserves. 

Another that enjoys losing. You really do want to become Edmonton. AT some point you need to surround your young stars that will help the team make that next step. Otherwise you just keep wasting years of those young stars playing a waiting. Creating a cycle of losing.

None of the posters on the forum enjoy losing but some posters can see a remarkable resemblance to HOW the Oilers got to be like they are by pushing the younger players to be the stars.

Miller is the savior? What makes that so? A rebuilding NYR team didn't think so, they got rid of him,Tampa moved him so they could keep their other FA's.

His stats are not anymore impressive than Eriksson's were, both got points by playing on the PP and with the best players on those teams.

A possible outcome of the Miller deal though may be the number one overall pick. Eriksson just cost money and a roster spot, the expectations on Miller are much bigger now and he is playing in a much "bigger" conference and not sheltered by two other forward lines.

Miller is definitely a wait and see player and if they get the #1 overall he has to be very, very good for a very long time.

 

Edmonton relied on Gagner, RNH, Hall, Eberle, Cogliano, Draistl and McDavid with support from good NHLer's like Cole, Horkoff, Smythe, Hemsky, Ference, Perron and others that could be compared player to player or role to role or stat to stat to this roster. The huge difference has been goaltending, Vancouver has had superior tenders for 16 years, odd when Vancouver is also known as a goalie graveyard.

 

Players can get used to losing, they can start expecting it, worrying about it and waiting for something to happen. Winning breeds winning, nothing substitutes. As a fan or poster you may be fooled by some stats like the standings and being close to a .500 point team but a player knows every one of the 50 losses each year and the standard phrases to do media talk.

 

Losing at a rate of almost two losses to one victory, no matter how affects subliminally, teams hire psychologists because this is a real thing. Over the last couple of years both Horvat and Eichel have commented upon how losing sucks, it is in their heads. Yes Horvat, he may be need a change of scenery to produce more but he is learning to be a professional and accept. Players/people that become champions do it because they want it more, they have an inner drive that hates losing, hate it with a passion that drives them. Every top pick has that and none of these kids have ever experienced losing like they are experiencing on the Canucks over the last 4 years. Teams that learn to accept losing have a very difficult time relearning how to win, usually it takes blowing it up. I am quite surprised that the frustrations of losing aren't aired more often, but the being professional is all about accepting, showing up, playing and helping to sell tickets.

 

BTW 9th from the bottom but only 5 points out of 4/5th from the bottom. 2 extra wins or Markstrom stealing 5 points

Edited July 7, 2019 by ItTakesAnArmy

[ItTakesAnArmy]

13 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Exactly.  Plus, we (for the first I can recall) have a really good group of prospects, who will be filling the support roles as the Miller types move out.  Those prospects will be on ELC’s, so we can still keep all our core guys.  I see a decade fir this window.  

Those replacing Miller, in what 5 years? Cup window is when? 2025? A decade for a single shot? The NHL likes that, one try every 16 years.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

3 hours ago, Baggins said:

Vey had potential. Santo was what he was. It doesn't change the fact he was offered a one year deal and turned it down. He overvalued himself as shown in free agency. Nobody offered him the two year deal he was seeking. How it works out is hindsight.

Who cares about santo overvaluing himself....In hindsight it would have been better to give him his two years and not give up that 2nd round pick because vey was an absolute waste.  You insinuate that santo being "it was he is" as a bad thing.  He was a shootout specialist, who played up and down the line up doing what ever his coached asked...and he was a local kid to boot. He just finished coming off 15 goal 50 point pace.  Him wanting that extra year hasn't stopped JB from signing a player before....Cough cough... Gagner, Beagle, Roussel, Schaller.......

 

Quote

So GM's should sign players they'd rather move on from purely so they don't walk for nothing? I wonder where all those UFA's appear from every July 1st......

That has zero to do with that topic.  It has to do with keeping free assets as stop gaps....removing the excuse that, you and a few other homers keep preaching ...that we needed to trade away picks to ice a "competitive" hockey team.

 

Quote

It certainly doesn't make him a bottom pair d-man.

Do you not see how inconsistent you are? It's like i'm debating with a child and the sad part is, I can't tell if you light bulb hasn't clicked on yet...or if it has but you feel are in too deep not to turn back....

 

Quote

Explain the logic of Guddy's playoff ice time then.

Did the panthers top shutdown guy willie Mitchell play in the playoffs?  Oh wait no he was injured Would that not have meant guddy was forced into playing that shutdown role against Tavares. How did he end up doing again in those 6 games?  But hey if you think 6 playoff games determine the criteria of the player you are trading for then what does that make Tyler Myers who was 6th on the Jets in defence ice time in there 6 playoff games this last post season.......Using your exact same logic.  Canucks just signed bottom pairing D to a 5 year 6 million dollar contract.

 

I'll await for you to change the goal posts, since your cherry pick stat taken (that ignores context) can't remain consistent.  haha

 

Quote

It was said we traded for a bottom pair d-man. We didn't.

But we did.  Gudbranson wasn't a legit top 4 D.  He was a bottom paring D asked to play in a bigger role, while his team was experiencing injuries. The fact that you don't understand that speaks volumes to your lack of hockey understanding....

 

Quote

We traded for a top 4 d-man. How it turned out is irrelevant to why we traded for him at the time. Again, that's called hindsight.

Nothing you pointed out provided any evidence that he was a legit top 4 D.  In fact when looking at your logic amongst his entire career (as I provided for you), it's overwhelming that he was not a top 4.   

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by ForsbergTheGreat

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

Those replacing Miller, in what 5 years? Cup window is when? 2025? A decade for a single shot? The NHL likes that, one try every 16 years.

Window is open now.  JB brought in support players on good contracts.  As those contracts expire or prospects come in to fill those roles.  Teams trade picks (first and second rounders) to compliment /support their cores.  JB has done this now, rather than waiting.  The way of doing this has changed, because the young elite core guys are getting paid big dollar after their ELCs.  JB is actually ahead of the curve.  

[Baggins]

4 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

None of the posters on the forum enjoy losing but some posters can see a remarkable resemblance to HOW the Oilers got to be like they are by pushing the younger players to be the stars.

 

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

Toews & Kane won the cup in their 3rd NHL season. Crosby won the cup in his 4th season (Malkin's 3rd) and it was their second trip to the finals.

As I said previously. The elite prospects can handle it. They weren't the support pieces. They won so young because they had the quality support pieces.

 

4 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

Miller is the savior? 

Who called him "the savior"? 

[189lb enforcers?]

25 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Is it subjective? The Oilers have had several 1st overall picks plus several other high firsts, not to mention added picks. They've drafted some good players. Where they've failed is surrounding those high picks with the needed talent to compete. Wasting years of those good players careers and cycling backwards again to try again. When you get high end talent you need to surround them with quality as quickly as possible if you want a lengthy window to work within. We took too long for the WCE, then took too long with the Sedins. The result: a very small window of opportunity. We have some high end talent. The time is now to surround them.

Honest question -

Is your point, the original post, subjective?

(You’re an unbiased auditor by trade, correct? I don’t need to define terms then, not for you)

[Baggins]

6 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Who cares about santo overvaluing himself....In hindsight it would have been better to give him his two years and not give up that 2nd round pick because vey was an absolute waste. 

 

That sums it up. It's easier to pick the right draft choices in hindsight as well. At the time you go with what you know.

 

11 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Did the panthers top shutdown guy willie Mitchell play in the playoffs?  Oh wait no he was injured Would that not have meant guddy was forced into playing that shutdown role against Tavares. How did he end up doing again in those 6 games?  But hey if you think 6 playoff games determine the criteria of the player you are trading for then what does that make Tyler Myers who was 6th on the Jets in defence ice time in there 6 playoff games this last post season.......Using your exact same logic.  Canucks just signed bottom pairing D to a 5 year 6 million dollar contract.

Why would the Panthers give a bottom pair guy the most minutes in the playoffs? Even with one injured d-man how does that make sense? one would think at least one of the three remaining top four would have more minutes. 

 

15 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 It's like i'm debating with a child 

Grow up.

[ItTakesAnArmy]

For all the Benning threads right now.

 

Why was Benning hired 7 years ago? Was it just part of a marketing ploy with Linden? Because he was a cheap hire?

 

What is his job? To rebuild the team? To sell tickets? To create a "winning environment"? To be better than other GM's so the team wins?

 

Why him? What made him so special, his years of work as a GM? Past history of building winners as the boss? Does he have a degree in running a hockey team?

 

What is he responsible for? Is he responsible for the player contracts? Is he responsible for team performance? Is he responsible for trades? Is he responsible for mistakes?

 

Why are his moves better than any of the poster's suggestions? Is there any deal that most posters could not have reasoned out on this forum?

   - Cap info from "capfriendly"  - Scouting information from any one of 8 or 9 scouting agencies, for up to two years ahead, info available now for the 2021 draft. 

  -  Inside information on hockey - Thousands of people have inside information, tens of thousands.

 

When Tallon was a broadcaster he was critical of the Hawks, owners suggested he try, he did and built a dyanasty. He goes to Florida and within 2 years they are playoff bound, he gets replaced and boom, they go down, he gets rehired and now they are cup contenders after this year. "you have to be really bad before you can get good" Both teams have seen top 3 picks under his watch and nailed every pick.

 

The cheap hire is interesting, they had just given both Tortorella, Gillis and others big raises with term, was he hired because the owner's put a cap on management expenses and this was a way to reduce the "office cap"? The Canucks have one of the smallest front offices now, one of the least expensive in the league, they got rid of bunch of people and now are ridding themselves of scouts, the same scouts that many here have been praising for filling the prospect pool, why?

 

Running a business is not about being nice, failure is usually not an option and in sports the standings indicate winners and losers. It is to be expected to be a loser for awhile but in the new NHL rebuilds are in the 3 to 4 year range, not 10 years and this regime might be in that range now especially once draft picks are traded away for 3rd/4th liners from other teams. Draft picks are the future especially in the cap era, up to 8 years of cap certainty. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, 10pavelbure96 said:

You sound like Miller is on an expiring contract when he is actually on a really cap friendly contract with term. These supporting cast players are going to play more than one season and there will be pieces added continually.

 

Sure it's a gamble, every move is. But as many have said before you have to eventually stop losing.

Why don’t we just wait and see how things go too, before passing judgements.  Both sides are could be right depending how things could play out.  For now anyways why don’t we just welcome him on board, he’s a bona fide multi-purpose blue chip player on a decent contract.  TB really wanted this guy at the time and offered him a good contract later to play with them long term.  Their cap situation and the progression of both Kucherov and Point meant they had to do something.   Same thing could happen to us in the future with Horvat or someone else.  We weren’t getting that from the draft and paid a fair price for him.   He might endear himself to the fans OR he might be linked to a could have would have should have situation depending on who we might of had instead.  Look forward to hopefully seeing him help EPs line and the team take the next step...

[-DLC-]

3 hours ago, Bubble Man said:

I understand completely. I just don’t think we are ready to trade a 1st yet. I don’t understand how this many people can look at our 20 year old star centre and our 19 year old PP QB and see a team ready to win. We are about 5 years too early. A 25 year old star center and a 24 year old PPQB sound about ready to be surrounded by players acquired with 1st round picks. That’s the time to tighten things up through FA. We just f’d up a really good plan. I’m glad everyone is super pumped about giving up futures for now. I seriously wish I could be happy about it. 

Here's what you aren't considering.

 

Those 19-20 year old stars are worth keeping happy.  They don't like to lose...they hate it.  So they don't care about what you're putting in the cupboard for "down the road"...their mental game is as important as picks that may or may not turn out.  I'd argue even more so.

 

If Petey is on a winning team that doesn't win the cup, it's still ok.  He's competing, hard, and reaping some of the rewards of that, which is VERY important.  If we are focused on acquiring picks and neglect the current line up, what sort of toll will that take on them?  In five years, they may be burnt out if we don't give them support.  If we're focusing on "future prospects" that's...in the future.  We need some stuff NOW.   Size matters.

I want HIM (them...because Bo, Brock, Quinn, Stech, etc. are all part of that for me) to be happy, not YOU to be happy.

 

Petey's already being targeted out there and, despite the fact that he tries to hold his own and doesn't scare easily, we need to have some players who have a bit of size and can at least LOOK like a deterrent.  A 17 year old that we're saving for later doesn't do anything to help with that.

 

So picks down the road don't HELP in the here and now.  The really good plan, in my view, is to make sure this guy's happy and surrounded by people who'll try to help him (win).  Strike while the iron's hot...because, with Petey & Co., the sky's the limit and we owe it to him/them and ourselves to focus on this blue chip we have.  Not "wait" until all the stars in the sky line up exactly as we picture them.

 

We're not five years too early to take care of that end of things.  And, it needed doing.

 

You're looking at Petey and Quinn through a half empty glass.  "We are about 5 years too early?".  How on earth do you know??!

[Bubble Man]

17 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

Here's what you aren't considering.

 

Those 19-20 year old stars are worth keeping happy.  They don't like to lose...they hate it.  So they don't care about what you're putting in the cupboard for "down the road"...their mental game is as important as picks that may or may not turn out.  I'd argue even more so.

 

If Petey is on a winning team that doesn't win the cup, it's still ok.  He's competing, hard, and reaping some of the rewards of that, which is VERY important.  If we are focused on acquiring picks and neglect the current line up, what sort of toll will that take on them?  In five years, they may be burnt out if we don't give them support.  If we're focusing on "future prospects" that's...in the future.  We need some stuff NOW.   Size matters.

I want HIM (them...because Bo, Brock, Quinn, Stech, etc. are all part of that for me) to be happy, not YOU to be happy.

 

Petey's already being targeted out there and, despite the fact that he tries to hold his own and doesn't scare easily, we need to have some players who have a bit of size and can at least LOOK like a deterrent.  A 17 year old that we're saving for later doesn't do anything to help with that.

 

So picks down the road don't HELP in the here and now.  The really good plan, in my view, is to make sure this guy's happy and surrounded by people who'll try to help him (win).  Strike while the iron's hot...because, with Petey & Co., the sky's the limit and we owe it to him/them and ourselves to focus on this blue chip we have.  Not "wait" until all the stars in the sky line up exactly as we picture them.

 

We're not five years too early to take care of that end of things.  And, it needed doing.

 

I really laugh at the fact that you're looking at Petey and Quinn through a half empty glass.  "We are about 5 years too early?".  How on earth do you know??!

Jim Benning has been trying to win since he got here and we have constantly been at the bottom as a result. We draft great, we have signed some good college FAs. Maybe if he intentionally tanked we’d finally make the playoffs. 

 

His pro scouting has been atrocious. I don’t even need to get into the details. 

 

I get that everyone wants to be optimistic but who’s statement has actual historical evidence to back it up? 

 

1. We are going to make the playoffs

 

or

 

2. Jim’s pro scouting isn’t very good and the only thing that has bailed him out now, is the only thing that is going to bail him out in the future. Drafting. 

[oldnews]

3 hours ago, Bubble Man said:

One of my favourite Old News contradictions was the Gudbranson Vs Analytics

hollow chirp chirps

Gudbranson plays hockey vs hockey players - there is no such thing as Gudbranson vs analytics.

but just quote something - like I said fill your boots - not going to bother with your weak paraphase/straw games....

 

and whoever you used to be on these boards....my guess would be a 'Baumermann' type "lol".

you better not be LaBamba, baiting me into ripping you (I always liked that guy and couldn't care less if we disagreed) - but you don't seem to have the 'tact' of a LaBamba wadr.

[-DLC-]

9 minutes ago, Bubble Man said:

Jim Benning has been trying to win since he got here and we have constantly been at the bottom as a result. We draft great, we have signed some good college FAs. Maybe if he intentionally tanked we’d finally make the playoffs. 

 

His pro scouting has been atrocious. I don’t even need to get into the details. 

 

I get that everyone wants to be optimistic but who’s statement has actual historical evidence to back it up? 

 

1. We are going to make the playoffs

 

or

 

2. Jim’s pro scouting isn’t very good and the only thing that has bailed him out now, is the only thing that is going to bail him out in the future. Drafting. 

At some point, you have to let it go.

 

Things change over time.  He may have been trying to do something, and then Plan B went into place.

 

I am excited about this team and there's a reason for that.  We have some great young players in the line up.  Our goaltending is looking pretty damn solid (even if we may have to address it at some point).

 

I am SO tired of naysayers and the never happy's.  We have so much negativity that surrounds the team and I really don't think it's warranted at this point. 

 

If you're not optimistic, you're pessimistic - and that's a choice.  

 

No one has "historical" evidence on a team that isn't out of the gates yet.  Maybe place your bet then complain if it doesn't come in AFTER the finish line.  

Why do you bother?  If it's so bleak?