Can the Canucks afford to let Chris Tanev walk away?

[theo5789]

2 hours ago, HockeyHarry said:

Edler Stecher = team tank days.

They were a fine pairing, but they didn't have the support of someone like Hughes on the 2nd pairing. Hughes is a game changer for us and partnered with Tanev gives us a more legit top 4 that we didn't have then (although I still think Edler and Myers have worked well together and should remain a pair).

[theo5789]

2 hours ago, grandmaster said:

This thread is a bit annoying.
 

Tanev is not “elite” and doesn’t make our defence “elite” whatsoever. 

There are plenty of options to replace Tanev other than the tall tree man for next year. Rathbone, Rafferty, Juolevi, Woo, etc (all of which would be at low cap hits and need to gain experience).
 

We live in a salary cap world and there is simply no room for Tanev on the depth chart of contract extensions. Priority goes to Marky and TT. 

When we signed Myers, Benning mentioned the importance of finding another top 4 RD. Losing Tanev takes us a step back, unless we have a formidable replacement. You listed 2 LD that likely don't impact the RD side of things unless they play their off side and you've listed a player who's been questioned of his defense and a player who hasn't seen a pro game yet. They are "options", but none that strikes any confidence. So yes they are low cap hits and needing experience, but you don't do that in a top 4 role, not if you expect to win that is.

[grandmaster]

20 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

When we signed Myers, Benning mentioned the importance of finding another top 4 RD. Losing Tanev takes us a step back, unless we have a formidable replacement. You listed 2 LD that likely don't impact the RD side of things unless they play their off side and you've listed a player who's been questioned of his defense and a player who hasn't seen a pro game yet. They are "options", but none that strikes any confidence. So yes they are low cap hits and needing experience, but you don't do that in a top 4 role, not if you expect to win that is.

Quinn walked in and not only became top 4 role but he became the #1. Give the kids a chance before you write them off. If one of them can be a #4 then it would be great. If not, then JB can work a trade mid season next year. For now Marky and TT are the priorities.

[mll]

2 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

Tanev is a #2 on this team,  probably #4 on a good D corps.  He's the Canucks best defensive D.  None of the "alternatives" you've listed are even top 6 yet.  

 

Second point, Tanev played all 69 games last year.  Don't forget that he had new shin pads specially designed for him last year that seemed to work very well.  We all hope that this continues.

 

Unless they can find an actual top 4 RHD to replace him, why on earth wouldn't they re-sign?  I was thrilled when they picked up Gudbranson and look how he turned out.  It took, what? 4 years to find Myers and he's only a #4 and cost $6M

 

Love TT but he's only played 10 games for the Canucks and will not be a point a game player long term.  He'll regress to near his long term average of 0.57 ppg

 

The Canucks are below average defensively.  Retaining Tanev and keeping the rest of the D-corps intact is probably insufficient of a change.  Edler missed 10 games but the Ds were otherwise healthy enough to play.  Only Hughes was a rookie and he was the best D.

 

Mike Kelly previewed the upcoming series using Sportlogiq's tracking technology and says 'the Canucks are one of the worse defensive teams in the league'. He calls Markstrom elite and thinks he should have be on every GMs ballot for the Vezina.

 

System is probably also part of it but Markstrom has been masking how bad the team is defensively.  Even ignoring advanced stats, numbers show that the Canucks aren't particularly strong at 5v5 and rely on the PP to win games.

 

Some 80% of the game is played at 5v5 and some 2/3rds of the goals were scored at that strength in the league this season.  The 24 teams of the extended season have allowed on average 136 goals at 5v5.  The Canucks have allowed 145 - only 5 of the 24 teams have allowed more.  Only 6 of the 24 teams have a negative differential at 5v5 but only 3 have a worse one than the Canucks (significantly worse though).

Production wise the Canucks are average at 5v5.  The Wild even outscored them by 15 goals at 5v5 this season.  There's somewhat of an over-reliance on the PP and Markstrom.  Adding Toffoli to improve 5v5 scoring does make some sense.  Games are won by goal differential so somewhat the choice between scoring more or allowing less to win games. 

 

Not sure it should just be Tanev or Toffoli.  Other teams will have to make cap decisions too so should also depend on who becomes available.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by mll

[Gurn]

3 hours ago, grandmaster said:

This thread is a bit annoying.
 

Tanev is not “elite” and doesn’t make our defence “elite” whatsoever. 

There are plenty of options to replace Tanev other than the tall tree man for next year. Rathbone, Rafferty, Juolevi, Woo, etc (all of which would be at low cap hits and need to gain experience).
 

We live in a salary cap world and there is simply no room for Tanev on the depth chart of contract extensions. Priority goes to Marky and TT. 

Priority to trying to sign Markstrom I agree.

Then

Tanev

Gaudette/Virtanen/Stetcher

then Toffoli

1 hour ago, Me_ said:

Agreed that a Tanev-less defense is a lesser defense. But usually, the Canucks already don’t have Tanev in their lineup, save for last year’s anomaly.

 

Todfoli and Markstrom are two absolute musts for this team.

 

Thanks to Hughes being Hughes, Tanev is replaceable. 
 

Toffoli is about to become a God in this town.

 

Hughes is Hughes-with help from Tanev. This upcoming season I figure Hughes to be a bit better, but I have no doubt Tanev has helped the youngster immensely.

Tanev is still the best defensive d man this team has.

Then Edler

Then Hughes

 

Toffoli is far from a priority signing, to me.

[canuktravella]

1 hour ago, grandmaster said:

Lol!

 

Tanev is a capable defenceman but he is not ahead of Edler. Meyers still needs to find his way and is likely to be better in time (his history will prove this). 
 

Those players I’ve listed need playing time to get good. None of them have had the opportunities. Next year will be that. As I said, Marky and TT are ahead of Tanev on the list and I’m sure most people here agree with that.

cant believe this guy thinks tanev is our 2nd best dman hes 4th or 5th behind edler hughes myers maybe even stecher  hes far from elite hes soft has no offense and has never been that good  look at our record since 2012 been good awful 

[tas]

3 minutes ago, canuktravella said:

cant believe this guy thinks tanev is our 2nd best dman hes 4th or 5th behind edler hughes myers maybe even stecher  hes far from elite hes soft has no offense and has never been that good  look at our record since 2012 been good awful 

haha tanev and soft in the same sentence. 

 

out to lunch. 

[Gurn]

5 minutes ago, canuktravella said:

has no offense

not his role.

[King Heffy]

21 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

Quinn walked in and not only became top 4 role but he became the #1. Give the kids a chance before you write them off. If one of them can be a #4 then it would be great. If not, then JB can work a trade mid season next year. For now Marky and TT are the priorities.

Gifting them a top 4 spot is insane.  That's the Edmonton model and it stunts development like crazy.

[canuktravella]

5 minutes ago, tas said:

haha tanev and soft in the same sentence. 

 

out to lunch. 

ive never seen the guy make a big hit in 10 yrs he doesnt clear the crease. he can skate and pass and break his foot blocking shots every yr naybe give him a 7 mill per 8 yr contract to make team suck anyother 8 yrs  

[tas]

1 minute ago, canuktravella said:

ive never seen the guy make a big hit in 10 yrs he doesnt clear the crease. he can skate and pass and break his foot blocking shots every yr naybe give him a 7 mill per 8 yr contract to make team suck anyother 8 yrs  

yikes. that's a bad take. 

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, gurn said:

not his role.

The more I see garbage like the post you were responding to, the more I'm ok with a guy like Lowe being elected to the HHOF.  Tanev's one of the best defensemen in the NHL, which sure as hell doesn't make him a 4-5 guy on this team.  Not liking the new NHL where this type of player is criminally underappreciated.  I'd actually like to see the league give out an award for best defensive defenseman.

[canuktravella]

6 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

The more I see garbage like the post you were responding to, the more I'm ok with a guy like Lowe being elected to the HHOF.  Tanev's one of the best defensemen in the NHL, which sure as hell doesn't make him a 4-5 guy on this team.  Not liking the new NHL where this type of player is criminally underappreciated.  I'd actually like to see the league give out an award for best defensive defenseman.

best defensive dman in league right lol   plus 43 in career isnt that good    best defensive dman all time  larry robinson was plus 722 in his career and  tanev is injured 38% of time not very durable 

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, canuktravella said:

best defensive dman in league right lol   plus 43 in career isnt that good    best defensive dman all time  larry robinson was plus 722 in his career and  tanev is injured 38% of time not very durable 

Plus 43 is pretty damn good when much of that career is spent on a bad team against the other team's first line, every night.  Robinson played on the greatest dynasty in history and is a hall of famer; that's a ridiculously poor comparison.  Tanev would rank in the top 10-15 for  his role though.

[grandmaster]

29 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Gifting them a top 4 spot is insane.  That's the Edmonton model and it stunts development like crazy.

It’s not a gift, it’s a trial. Travis Green doesn’t do gifts. He has a few young defensemen waiting for their chances. Go through the list. If the list craps out in the end then work a trade. Before you do that though, you give them fair chances to prove themselves. 

[grandmaster]

27 minutes ago, canuktravella said:

ive never seen the guy make a big hit in 10 yrs he doesnt clear the crease. he can skate and pass and break his foot blocking shots every yr naybe give him a 7 mill per 8 yr contract to make team suck anyother 8 yrs  

Let’s be honest here. Tanev is a great shot blocker and positions well on the defensive side of things. I do agree though he does not have the ability to throw his weight around and can’t hit. He also can’t really score. This is why he is replaceable. I wouldn’t lose sleep if he walks. We need the cap space for TT and Marky.

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

Let’s be honest here. Tanev is a great shot blocker and positions well on the defensive side of things. I do agree though he does not have the ability to throw his weight around and can’t hit. He also can’t really score. This is why he is replaceable. I wouldn’t lose sleep if he walks. We need the cap space for TT and Marky.

The problem is a suitable replacement will cost more than simply re-signing Tanev, who is willing to take a discount, and there aren't a lot of guys that will be available anyway.  We don't currently have anyone in our system who can be trusted to play that role.

[HockeyHarry]

Healthy Tanev playing with Quinn i like.

 

A Injuried Tanev with new big Contract I wont like.

 

anyone willing to gamble Tanev stays healthy?

Edited July 19, 2020 by HockeyHarry

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, grandmaster said:

Quinn walked in and not only became top 4 role but he became the #1. Give the kids a chance before you write them off. If one of them can be a #4 then it would be great. If not, then JB can work a trade mid season next year. For now Marky and TT are the priorities.

How many Quinn's are there that can do so? I'm all for giving them a chance, but you don't purposely leave a gaping hole in hopes they fill it because what if they aren't ready? We haven't rushed any prospects and gave everyone competition to earn their role, that won't change and has been effective thus far. And like I said, we only have Rafferty and Woo who are the RD prospects (Chatfield as well if you want to include him) and I explained that one has been questioned defensively (where the big hole that Tanev would leave) and the other has always been called a longer term project and won't get any experience with the big club until the next training camp (unlike Hughes who got an early look for assessment).

 

I'd argue that now without Tryamkin, Tanev bumps up to the top priority, or at least on par with Marky. Toffoli remains on the bottom of my priority list of the three. We have much more (and better) internal competition for Toffoli's spot if we want to go with a cheaper option and it's a position that doesn't get as exposed as easily if they falter. I would love to be able to fit Toffoli, but he's a luxury piece if we can.

[Crabcakes]

1 hour ago, mll said:

 

The Canucks are below average defensively.  Retaining Tanev and keeping the rest of the D-corps intact is probably insufficient of a change.  Edler missed 10 games but the Ds were otherwise healthy enough to play.  Only Hughes was a rookie and he was the best D.

 

Mike Kelly previewed the upcoming series using Sportlogiq's tracking technology and says 'the Canucks are one of the worse defensive teams in the league'. He calls Markstrom elite and thinks he should have be on every GMs ballot for the Vezina.

 

System is probably also part of it but Markstrom has been masking how bad the team is defensively.  Even ignoring advanced stats, numbers show that the Canucks aren't particularly strong at 5v5 and rely on the PP to win games.

 

Some 80% of the game is played at 5v5 and some 2/3rds of the goals were scored at that strength in the league this season.  The 24 teams of the extended season have allowed on average 136 goals at 5v5.  The Canucks have allowed 145 - only 5 of the 24 teams have allowed more.  Only 6 of the 24 teams have a negative differential at 5v5 but only 3 have a worse one than the Canucks (significantly worse though).

Production wise the Canucks are average at 5v5.  The Wild even outscored them by 15 goals at 5v5 this season.  There's somewhat of an over-reliance on the PP and Markstrom.  Adding Toffoli to improve 5v5 scoring does make some sense.  Games are won by goal differential so somewhat the choice between scoring more or allowing less to win games. 

 

Not sure it should just be Tanev or Toffoli.  Other teams will have to make cap decisions too so should also depend on who becomes available.

 

 

Wow, this is a grim reflection and it's pretty hard to disagree with.  This is the nut of the reason why I can't see them parting with Tanev.  Imagine this defense without their best defensive player.

 

As for the immediate future, Hughs will improve but who else?  Do we see Juolevi coming along?  Maybe.  I don't see anybody in the system projecting above bottom pair besides.  Maybe Benning can make a move to help the D the same way he helped the forwards with Miller.  Don't ask me who.