Aquilini's Ownership Feel Lucky To Have Them.

[DefCon1]

7 hours ago, canuckster19 said:

I wonder if Gillis would be given a second chance. You got the core, now get the right complementary pieces.

If Benning is the perfect man to create a great core of young players, Gillis would be the perfect man as a closer or a finisher. He is a players agent but a GM that is a perfect negotiator. He really gets the most out of a player while signing them for under market value. I just remember how he signed Sedins to cheap contracts while getting burrows to sign a steal of a contract. He even got very valuable players like Malhotra, Higgins and even Torres who had big impacts in the playoffs. I just don't see Benning as the GM that can put the finishing touches needed for this team to be a cup contender. It shows when he signs Myers for 6 million per year or Roussell for 3 million per. I never saw Gillis ever sign mediocre players for high prices. I like Benning as someone who can draft and build a team from scratch but he isn't a GM that can build a cup winning team.

[koregen]

7 hours ago, canuckster19 said:

I wonder if Gillis would be given a second chance. You got the core, now get the right complementary pieces.

Gillis is the GM that signed over bloated contracts that f'd any chance this team had for the next 7 years and you want him back?

[Quantum]

7 hours ago, canuckster19 said:

I wonder if Gillis would be given a second chance. You got the core, now get the right complementary pieces.

I was thinking about this. This Canucks team feels very parallel to the Canucks team Gillis inherited in 2006. It's a team on the verge of becoming special but needs a kick in the arse in the right direction.

 

Don't think Gillis would return but he's one of the "free agent" GM's that is available to hire and, if I'm not mistaken, he's still based in Vancouver so he wouldn't need to quarantine to get to work.

 

That said, my fear is that the Aquillini's go hard in on someone like Dale Tallon, Peter Chiarelli (barf), or Dean Lombardi -- and pick a more old school GM than even Benning is. Lombardi, though, if memory serves correct has rejected every Aquillini job offer he's ever received.

 

If Benning is fired this week, I'd hope the candidates include people like Laurence Gilman, Ron Hextall, Kevin Weekes, Ryan Johnson (Utica Comets GM), or -- if they were to go an unconventional route -- maybe interviewing Henrik Evertsson the GM of Vaxjo Lakers (aka Petey's old SHL team) who have been one of the SHL's most dominant hockey clubs for the last decade under his watch. 

 

Either way, I feel like something's gonna happen this week and a change is necessary.

 

I just hope to god that if Benning gets canned that they don't name John Weisbrod interim GM.

[canuckster19]

I doubt Benning will get fired though and not entirely convinced he should be. I would rather see if a coaching change lights a fire under them. I think this team would do well under Babcock, they have the tools, they just need a good systems coach.

[Lazurus]

4 hours ago, canuckster19 said:

I doubt Benning will get fired though and not entirely convinced he should be. I would rather see if a coaching change lights a fire under them. I think this team would do well under Babcock, they have the tools, they just need a good systems coach.

Benning already fired two coaches, Torts and Willy. What do you do just keep firing coaches? At some point it becomes evident that a god couldn't win with a group that just isn't good enough. That is why there are different levels of hockey, this is a great AHL team but not so great NHL, it is a matter of skill levels.

[Westcoasting]

3 hours ago, Lazurus said:

Benning already fired two coaches, Torts and Willy. What do you do just keep firing coaches? At some point it becomes evident that a god couldn't win with a group that just isn't good enough. That is why there are different levels of hockey, this is a great AHL team but not so great NHL, it is a matter of skill levels.

How many did New Jersey  go through? Must have been at least a dozen while winning a few cups. I don’t recall any lasting more than a few years!

[canuckster19]

3 hours ago, Lazurus said:

Benning already fired two coaches, Torts and Willy. What do you do just keep firing coaches? At some point it becomes evident that a god couldn't win with a group that just isn't good enough. That is why there are different levels of hockey, this is a great AHL team but not so great NHL, it is a matter of skill levels.

Torts was never Benning's coach and don't pretend like that was going to work out after the Calgary outburst.

 

Lombardi went through 3 coaches before he found a winner in Sutter, how many losing years did the Kings put up with under Lombardi? quite a few.

 

Lou Lamerello went through 4 head coaches before he hired Jacques Lemaire, then had 4 more between the bookends of their cup seasons.

 

Doug Armstrong went through 3 coaches in St Louis before hiring Berube.

 

I mean I could go on.

 

 

[DSVII]

10 hours ago, koregen said:

Gillis is the GM that signed over bloated contracts that f'd any chance this team had for the next 7 years and you want him back?

This one is new, usually Gillis contract criticisms are to defend why Benning couldn't trade anyone (NTCs, NMCs) to rebuild in 2014-16 . But bloat?

 

Which contracts other than Luongo? What 7 years? Sure that $3 mil cap may have tipped us over, but Benning had 1-2 yrs of notice of this and he still signed Myers, Ferland, Benn and spent $10+ mil in cap. 

 

Gillis managed the cap better than Benning. Yes the NHL went back around and changed the rules and retroactively punished him for Luongo, but he left Benning with plenty of cap space to pursue his....foundational veteran culture carriers every offseason.

 

How many other teams right now have 12+ million of their cap scratched? I'd absolutely take him back over Benning if there was no one else to hire (obv he's not the first choice)

Edited February 7, 2021 by DSVII

[Provost]

10 hours ago, DefCon1 said:

Problem is that these are Benning's decision and he hired the wrong people. I mean the fact that he hired Weisbrod who had made many boneheaded mistakes in Calgary was really a terrible decision. Why did they hire Baumgartner and why did they extended them? These terrible decisions have compounded to big problems we see now. Ever since Baumer has been hired, our team has been one of the worst defensive teams and Marky made that team a bit more respectable. Newell Brown should not have been extended. I think all of this goes back to Benning and that is not the fault of Aquaman has he didn't make those decisions. 

When there was a power struggle internally, Aquilini bought into the Benning/Weisbrod decision and fired Linden.

Benning got his boss fired and so is left with being the only one responsible for his decisions.  It is all on Benning and Aquilini really... when you are the boss, the buck stops with you.  Aquilini backed the wrong horse with the wrong plan so of course the blame lies with him.

[Wolfgang Durst]

15 minutes ago, Provost said:

When there was a power struggle internally, Aquilini bought into the Benning/Weisbrod decision and fired Linden.

Benning got his boss fired and so is left with being the only one responsible for his decisions.  It is all on Benning and Aquilini really... when you are the boss, the buck stops with you.  Aquilini backed the wrong horse with the wrong plan so of course the blame lies with him.

What's your opinion on Aquillini's hockey understanding in general? I mean he is a business man first and foremost. Not sure to what degree he really understands hockey in detail.

I mean that's obviously an issue also for other franchises. I recall that Pegula in Buffalo didn't always make the right call. In fact Buffalo was and still is quite a mess.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Wolfgang Durst

[Provost]

3 minutes ago, Wolfgang Durst said:

What's your opinion on Aquillini's hockey understanding in general? I mean he is a business man first and foremost. Not sure to what degree he really understands hockey in detail.

I mean that's obviously an issue also for other franchises. I recall that Pegula in Buffalo didn't always make the right call. In fact Buffalo was and still is quite a mess.

I don't think we should care how much he understands hockey.  He doesn't have to understand any of the down and dirty details of his businesses if he puts the right people in place who do.
His jbb is picking the right people, and he hasn't done that.  It was pretty public knowledge that he chose Tortorella over the objection of Gillis, see how that turned out.  Now he picked the Benning/Weisbrod duo instead of Linden/Brackett who were by all accounts the other "camp" in the front office.
If he doesn't know hockey, then he should stay out of hockey decisions.  It is pretty well understood around the league that he is an owner who likes to play with his toy rather than stay hands off.

[Lazurus]

5 minutes ago, Wolfgang Durst said:

What's your opinion on Aquillini's hockey understanding in general? I mean he is a business man first and foremost. Not sure to what degree he really understands hockey in detail.

I mean that's obviously an issue also for other franchises. I recall that Pegula in Buffalo didn't always make the right call. In fact Buffalo was and still is quite a mess.

A little  Aqulini hockey history? East side family played hockey in Vancouver, cheered for the Canucks.

Was in business handling 100's of employees and millions of dollars much longer than Benning

Much higher education than Benning's grade 12 (that high?)

Closer contacts than the average fan.

Can't get too personal.

Linden quit, not fired, no announcement, mutual departure, which means Linden quit.

1 hour ago, canuckster19 said:

Lombardi went through 3 coaches before he found a winner in Sutter, how many losing years did the Kings put up with under Lombardi? quite a few.

Dean Lombardi? You mean Murray don't you? Wasn't Sutter after for the next cup?

Hey, coaches are hired to be firedbut he can only coach what he has

The team has 3 AHL defencmen, sometimes 4, there is no depth.

No practice time, when this happened to Torts, everyone blamed him too but practice is needed.

1 hour ago, canuckster19 said:

Lou Lamerello went through 4 head coaches before he hired Jacques Lemaire, then had 4 more between the bookends of their cup seasons

What a bad example, he was GM for almost 30 years with NJD, coaches could have died of old age in that amount of time.

There is no doubt he was in it to win, yes he went through coaches like beer. But his team was good and winning not like here.

 

[Wolfgang Durst]

28 minutes ago, Provost said:

I don't think we should care how much he understands hockey.  He doesn't have to understand any of the down and dirty details of his businesses if he puts the right people in place who do.
His jbb is picking the right people, and he hasn't done that.  It was pretty public knowledge that he chose Tortorella over the objection of Gillis, see how that turned out.  Now he picked the Benning/Weisbrod duo instead of Linden/Brackett who were by all accounts the other "camp" in the front office.
If he doesn't know hockey, then he should stay out of hockey decisions.  It is pretty well understood around the league that he is an owner who likes to play with his toy rather than stay hands off.

Thanks.

What about engaging a person like Daryl Sutter as a senior advisor for Aquillini in order to ensure that ownership makes the right calls going forward? Such a person with a proven track record and hockey background would be very helpful to pick the right people (GM & Headcoach).

Think that Aquillini should seriously think about this.

[Wolfgang Durst]

1 minute ago, Lazurus said:

A little  Aqulini hockey history? East side family played hockey in Vancouver, cheered for the Canucks.

Was in business handling 100's of employees and millions of dollars much longer than Benning

Much higher education than Benning's grade 12 (that high?)

Closer contacts than the average fan.

Can't get too personal.

Linden quit, not fired, no announcement, mutual departure, which means Linden quit.

Dean Lombardi? You mean Murray don't you? Wasn't Sutter after for the next cup?

Hey, coaches are hired to be firedbut he can only coach what he has

The team has 3 AHL defencmen, sometimes 4, there is no depth.

No practice time, when this happened to Torts, everyone blamed him too but practice is needed.

What a bad example, he was GM for almost 30 years with NJD, coaches could have died of old age in that amount of time.

There is no doubt he was in it to win, yes he went through coaches like beer. But his team was good and winning not like here.

 

That was the official version. The official version is not always telling you the truth. Anyway, you have to admit that Aquillini picked the wrong people with Benning and Weisbrod. Benning is ultimately responsible as GM for this mess (signing LE to this albatross contract, re-signing Baertschi even though Baertschi missed several months because of a concussion, inability to move money out to re-sign Toffoli, just to mention a few of the poor decisions).

[Fred65]

29 minutes ago, Wolfgang Durst said:

Thanks.

What about engaging a person like Daryl Sutter as a senior advisor for Aquillini in order to ensure that ownership makes the right calls going forward? Such a person with a proven track record and hockey background would be very helpful to pick the right people (GM & Headcoach).

Think that Aquillini should seriously think about this.

I've been in favour of this for a long time, way before this current slump. The philosopher Hegel wrote: "The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk."   ie wisdom comes late in life. I'm not all together I'd choose Daryl Sutter but some one along those lines. How ever I tend to believe Benning prefers the one man alone approach or those that are yes men. That was clear when he fired an extremely intelligent man like Laurence Gilman. Gilman often took on the role of devils advocate and Benning couldn't beat him in a straight up debate ..... so he fired him. So if indeed there is a over lord hired he has to be senior to JB. The clubs problem is Aquaman and Benning don't like more intelligent folks throwing in their two pennies. Hey who knows maybe Gilmans the guy 

 

As to Benning if he's let go who do you replace him with. Many teams groom a younger man ( Tampa, Vegas ) but we have Weisbrod another yes man. Off the top of my head  I can't think of a well versesed GM sitting idle at home, so it's going to be a new face and I'd have sympathy for the guy coming in.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Fred65

[canuckster19]

26 minutes ago, Lazurus said:

A little  Aqulini hockey history? East side family played hockey in Vancouver, cheered for the Canucks.

Was in business handling 100's of employees and millions of dollars much longer than Benning

Much higher education than Benning's grade 12 (that high?)

Closer contacts than the average fan.

Can't get too personal.

Linden quit, not fired, no announcement, mutual departure, which means Linden quit.

Dean Lombardi? You mean Murray don't you? Wasn't Sutter after for the next cup?

Hey, coaches are hired to be firedbut he can only coach what he has

The team has 3 AHL defencmen, sometimes 4, there is no depth.

No practice time, when this happened to Torts, everyone blamed him too but practice is needed.

What a bad example, he was GM for almost 30 years with NJD, coaches could have died of old age in that amount of time.

There is no doubt he was in it to win, yes he went through coaches like beer. But his team was good and winning not like here.

 

You're joking right with regards to Sutter?

 

It took Lamerello 8 years before he managed a cup winning team... and a good team? It took the Devils six seasons before they won a playoff series under Lamerello.

 

I mean the fact that you simply guess these things and assume Lamerello had a good team in the Devils when they were cumulatively 174-176-54 before their breakout season in 93-94, shows me you're just guessing.

Edited February 7, 2021 by canuckster19

[Lazurus]

22 hours ago, canuckster19 said:

Torts was never Benning's coach and don't pretend like that was going to work out after the Calgary outburst.

 

Lombardi went through 3 coaches before he found a winner in Sutter, how many losing years did the Kings put up with under Lombardi? quite a few.

 

Lou Lamerello went through 4 head coaches before he hired Jacques Lemaire, then had 4 more between the bookends of their cup seasons.

 

Doug Armstrong went through 3 coaches in St Louis before hiring Berube.

 

I mean I could go on.

 

 

Lombardi won cups with, Murray the first, Sutter was the coach for the second

20 hours ago, canuckster19 said:

You're joking right with regards to Sutter?

 

It took Lamerello 8 years before he managed a cup winning team... and a good team? It took the Devils six seasons before they won a playoff series under Lamerello.

 

I mean the fact that you simply guess these things and assume Lamerello had a good team in the Devils when they were cumulatively 174-176-54 before their breakout season in 93-94, shows me you're just guessing.

Nothing like just throwing any old numbers out there to troll eh?

History lesson;

Lamerello - Hired 1986 - Conference Finals - 1987, miss - 1988, then 1989 thru 1994-95 playoffs every year up to being Cup Champs. Coaches were replaced on a perennial playoff team 86 to 95 - 7 out 8 years deep playoff runs.

Took Lamorello one season to make a playoff team.

 

 

Hey!

 

Understand this has nothing to do with Green as a coach, Chatfield is never going to suddenly become Potvin, Juolevi is not suddenly the second coming of Ohlund

Green is not holding players back

Look this problem has been around for years, Markstrom covered it up most

Benning concentrated on signing old FA FORWARDS and ignored the defence with the exception of Myers. He relied on an aging under rated Tanev and Edler. You may have liked Stecher but he is marginal in Detroit, it just shows how bad this defence had become.

 

For the rest.

 

When the Aqulini's stepped back and left the team to the "hockey" people, as the fans and media at the time were demanding, They fired Gillis and hired Linden and let him go at it, they just signed checks until their kids got out of school.

[Lazurus]

20 hours ago, Wolfgang Durst said:

That was the official version. The official version is not always telling you the truth. Anyway, you have to admit that Aquillini picked the wrong people with Benning and Weisbrod. Benning is ultimately responsible as GM for this mess (signing LE to this albatross contract, re-signing Baertschi even though Baertschi missed several months because of a concussion, inability to move money out to re-sign Toffoli, just to mention a few of the poor decisions).

When Linden was hired, he got 100% control.

 

I think the decision to start getting back involved might have been around the time their kids exiting school and the Ferland contract.

The Ferland could not be insured because insurance company doctors would not clear Ferland but Benning either missed that or didn't care or was simply too incompetent to understand the ramifications and didn't ask but it put the Canucks/Aquillini's 100% financially responsible for Ferland current and future health.

 

I know posters keep trying to put some of the blame on the owners

You have to remember the hyper intense heat the media helped propagate during that time. It was embarrassing and some media persona's must still not be very proud of that time.

The result was this team, a team not built to win but to put bums in seats.

Over the years Aquillini involvement has been speculated, but in the form of  "I can't believe they let that happen" which points towards a hands off position. Fans got what they wanted.

[canuckster19]

8 hours ago, Lazurus said:

Lombardi won cups with, Murray the first, Sutter was the coach for the second

Nothing like just throwing any old numbers out there to troll eh?

History lesson;

Lamerello - Hired 1986 - Conference Finals - 1987, miss - 1988, then 1989 thru 1994-95 playoffs every year up to being Cup Champs. Coaches were replaced on a perennial playoff team 86 to 95 - 7 out 8 years deep playoff runs.

Took Lamorello one season to make a playoff team.

 

 

Hey!

 

Understand this has nothing to do with Green as a coach, Chatfield is never going to suddenly become Potvin, Juolevi is not suddenly the second coming of Ohlund

Green is not holding players back

Look this problem has been around for years, Markstrom covered it up most

Benning concentrated on signing old FA FORWARDS and ignored the defence with the exception of Myers. He relied on an aging under rated Tanev and Edler. You may have liked Stecher but he is marginal in Detroit, it just shows how bad this defence had become.

 

For the rest.

 

When the Aqulini's stepped back and left the team to the "hockey" people, as the fans and media at the time were demanding, They fired Gillis and hired Linden and let him go at it, they just signed checks until their kids got out of school.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darryl_Sutter

 

Wow keep pushing that AnDy MuRrAy "factoid".

 

Took Gillis one season as well and Lamerello followed it up with several seasons of mediocrity and missed playoffs at a time when it was greater than 50/50 all things being equal. Again, he had a below 500 record until 93-94.

 

Wow, what argument are you even trying to make about future potential of these players, not holding players back? You know tonight is Juolevi's first game in what 7 or 8 since scoring a goal in his last game. How is Green not holding him back?