Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management

[combover]

2 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

Where does this “8 seasons” crap come from, lol.  
 

1) All teams go through a rebuild.  Don’t believe me?  Look at all of the top teams in the NHL at current and have a gander at their histories.

 

2) We qualified for the playoffs in both 2015 and 2020.  
 

3) I do admit that Benning needs to be fired and I do admit that I don’t know what happened to this team post 2020 bubble.  

I was under the impression he was the GM since 2014  that’s 8 years and he has been crap.

 

why is there next to no reports or storys about what great job this guy has done since he got hired. Media hates is right that excuse. 
couldnt be the other reason like say because he hasn’t done a good job. 

 

his mission statement since that day was to make the playoffs not rebuild. He’s failed 

the 2015 team was still basically Gillis runoff team that should have been sold off to start the rebuild. didn’t we get run over by the flames in4 or 5 games. !!success!!

Jb though we had a window to win his words.

2020 we were out of the playoff when the season ended we got heathy and we’re over the cap when the playins started 

the “ bubble team” the same team that was giving up 50+ shots a night didn’t go anywhere they were terrible defensively just like the team is today. And just like today they need the goaltender to steal every win. 

saying he started the rebuild 2 years ago is just a cop out for his previous years of failing. 
 

7 picks  to make the team on rebuilding club.

 

winning environment 

turn around quickly 

ect 

 

 

 

[Westcoasting]

He should try MG,S line of “it’s a process”

[Patel Bure]

34 minutes ago, JM_ said:

agreed, i do think a better coaching group could have got more out of Schmidt and who we have now.

 

But Benning knows who his coach is, doesn't he?

 

It’s why I also believe that Benning deserves major criticism for being overly loyal towards Green.

[NHL97OneTimer]

9 hours ago, Master Mind said:

It's true that the team has failed Benning. However, if it didn't, we'd be about 3rd or 4th in the division at best, and likely out in the first round. I don't think this team was destined for a playoff run.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I'd like to see Benning let go first. That way his replacement can come in and assess the team, and make coaching/roster changes to fit the new GM's plans.

 

I think this season is a lost cause. Too far back to make a full turnaround, and we don't have the personnel  STL had during their impressive turnaround. Therefore might as well get the wheels in motion now for fixing this team long term, rather than look for short term solutions which is what I'd expect Benning to do if he stays.

This is acceptable and rational.  I'm not upset if JB loses his job.  I just think it needs to come with the message that the team failed JB too and so more changes are coming but under the direction of the new GM.  Either way, the coaching staff needs an overhaul.  I don't miss Willie or Torts.  Crawford was amusing to watch but had his shortcomings also.  AV was the last and one of the few coaches I've liked.  Just as important though, the assistant coaches have been dismal.

[Patel Bure]

52 minutes ago, combover said:

I was under the impression he was the GM since 2014  that’s 8 years and he has been crap.

 

why is there next to no reports or storys about what great job this guy has done since he got hired. Media hates is right that excuse. 
couldnt be the other reason like say because he hasn’t done a good job. 

 

his mission statement since that day was to make the playoffs not rebuild. He’s failed 

the 2015 team was still basically Gillis runoff team that should have been sold off to start the rebuild. didn’t we get run over by the flames in4 or 5 games. !!success!!

Jb though we had a window to win his words.

2020 we were out of the playoff when the season ended we got heathy and we’re over the cap when the playins started 

the “ bubble team” the same team that was giving up 50+ shots a night didn’t go anywhere they were terrible defensively just like the team is today. And just like today they need the goaltender to steal every win. 

saying he started the rebuild 2 years ago is just a cop out for his previous years of failing. 
 

7 picks  to make the team on rebuilding club.

 

winning environment 

turn around quickly 

ect 

 

 

 

1) When a GM first takes over a team, do you think it’s wise to make a public statement stating, “this core is at its end and we’ll need to start rebuilding soon?”  Of course not.  It’s disrespectful to the core players that have been there for many years.  So - by publicly saying something like, “we think we can turn this around fairly quickly,” you give confidence to the boys.  Of course Benning and ownership knew where this team really was at.      That’s why the 14-15 team was given one last kick at the can.
 

2) Are you forgetting that Benning brought in Bonino, Ryan Miller, and Radim Vrbata that year (scored 30+ goal that season).  Speaking of 14-15, why do you think Bieksa was moved for a 2nd round pick after our playoff loss?  In the years following, why do you think Higgins was replaced by Baertschi?  Hansen traded for Goldobin?  Burrows for Dahlen?

 

Do you honestly believe that guys like Sutter, Gudbranson, and Player Name were brought in because Benning thought that those guys would help us make a run to the cup?  C’mon man.  Think deeper than that.

 

Do you think it’s possible that Benning brought in.....

 

1) Sutter because the presence of Sutter would allow Horvat and Henrik to avoid tougher defensive match ups while Horvat developed his game a little more (ie safeguarding young players on the team)

 

2) Gudbranson because of Gudbranson panned out, it would allow Gudbranson to take over Tanev’s role which would allow the Canucks to trade Tanev for a 1st round pick without sinking our defense? (note - this is one reason why we didn’t end up trading Tanev by the way.  Gudbranson wasn’t ready to fill Tanev’s shoes and trading Tanev at that point would have overburdened Hutton, Stecher, and Gudbranson, and ultimately Markstrom (safeguarding young players on the team)

 

3) Player Name because the Burrows was washed up while Virtanen needed more time in juniors (as opposed to throwing Jake to the wolves), while Hansen was the teams’ only good RW’er at the time? (Safeguarding Virtanen’s development)

 

4) Prust because Gaunce wasn’t NHL ready (safeguarding)

 

5) Beagle, Roussel, and Schaller because Gaunce, MacEwen, and Gaudette weren’t NHL ready (safeguarding).

 

speaking of safeguarding and merit based performance, notice how Motte bumped Gagner out of our line-up?

 

ps - you keep harping on our lost picks but what if I told you that we were on par with Tampa Bay and Colorado in terms of converting picks into long term roster players?

 

Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser, Demko, Hoglander, Podkolzin.   
 

Even guys like Horvat, Markstrom, and Gaudette, who weren’t drafted by Benning, were developed by the Benning regime (ie for example, when we signed Ryan Miller, it allowed Markstrom to go to the AHL and develop his game).

 

Even departed players like Hutton, Tryamkin, and Virtanen were all Benning.  
 

Guys like Rathbone and possibly Dipietro are on their way.   Looks like a solid NHL conversion rate to me.  
 

As far as what has transpired post bubble playoffs, I don’t have an explanation as to what happened.  Guys like Schmidt, Dickinson, Holtby, and OEL (from a production standpoint) should all have been better.  

Edited November 27, 2021 by Patel Bure

[combover]

Everyone new the team needed a rebuild fans players coach’s ex gm.

jim thought he could do a retool he was wrong. 
 disrespectful…

come on.

 

the team was done. The rebuild should have started then.  he was the gm who decided not to do it put any spin you want he’s been here 8 years the team is still terrible and lacks depth at every position the farm has no youth ready to move up.
 

Jb has had more than enough opportunity to fix the mess he made if he could he would he can’t because he hasn’t.
in results based business you get fired for that. 
regardless of how we got here we’re here and we aren’t good. That falls in the guy that put the group together especially when it’s not a one off. 

 

 

[Pastafarian]

21 hours ago, JohnTavares said:

Yup. Most people who actually watched the London Knights said Mete was equal to Juolevi, if not better.

Yes I watched them and,sadly, Mete was better by a fair margin, for sure offensively.

[Pastafarian]

5 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Coaching:   I will have to agree with you here that Benning should have transitioned from Green to Gallant when Gerard Gallant was let go by the VGK.  Guys like Green and WD are ok during a rebuild, since elite coaches typically don't join rebuilding teams (to which rebuilding teams often rely on AHL coaches), but yes - Benning should have transitioned to Gallant, or at least replace Green with Claude Julien this past off season.

 

His moves:  We will have to agree to disagree on this.  From 2015-2020, yes, Benning did spend to the cap, but he spent this money on veteran leadership which allowed our young players to not be rushed into roles that they were too green for (i.e. merit based promotions), while setting a team culture on and off the ice.  Our team chemistry and cohesiveness was one of the reasons why we had success in the bubble.  The only moves which made no sense to me were the Ryan Spooner and Sam Gagner trades/signings.  All of the other moves, I can justify (I won't right now because it will take too much time). 

 

3) Failed to deliver:  You mean like the 2nd round appearance in 2020?    

 

4) Depth down the middle:   How is it Benning's fault that Pettersson has mysteriously fallen off a cliff?  (unless there is/was some locker room issues that we aren't aware of, in which case, Benning could be blamed here).   Most hockey pundits would have agreed that Pettersson-Horvat as a 1-2 combo at center should have been solid.  Even moreso if you choose to deploy JT Miller there.  Even with Pettersson-Horvat-Dickinson as your 3 centres, most would have agreed that it would have been decent since most NHL pundits agreed that Dickinson would have been an upgrade over Sutter, Beagle, and Roussel, and that Dickinson had at least some decent offensive ability to utilize his teammates (unlike Sutter or Beagle).   

 

5) Traded picks:   We've lost picks but we've also managed to successfully bring up at least one young player into the line-up each and every year.  Current players = Horvat, Demko, Pettersson, Hoglander, Hughes, Podkolzin, and Boeser.  Markstrom, like Horvat, was developed by the Benning regime.  Even the dearly departed such as Virtanen, Hutton, Tryamkin, Stecher, and Gaudette were developed by the Benning regime to moderate degrees of success.   We also had a year of McCann.  Jack Rathbone is pretty much on the team as well.   So maybe it's not so much about 'bled picks,' but rather, which guys actually make the NHL and stick with the big club?   

 

6) Which good young players were waived and ended up killing it on different teams?  Gadjovich is farting around in San Jose while Gaudette got put on waivers today?  Has MacEwen done anything in Philly?  Frankie Corrado?   Kudos to Gustav Forsling, Jarred McCann, and Jonathan Dahlen for turning their careers around I guess.

 

7) Post bubble:  Even post bubble, I don't understand what Benning could have done differently other than finding a way to keep Toffoli and getting rid of Green.  From an analytics perspective, guys like Nate Schmidt and Jason Dickinson were terrific ads.  Other than being too loyal to Green, how is it Benning's fault that Green didn't/doesn't know how to properly utilize these guys.  OEL is having a great season but he fits into this category as well (i.e. lack of offense).  We can point fingers at bringing in Holtby, but Holtby (1A goalie) is exactly what we needed to help insulate an aspiring #1 goalie in Demko.   

 

 

I agree that massive changes need to be made now, but I don't see how Benning could have or should have done most things differently.  How in the world is it his fault that Pettersson and Boeser went completely AWOL this season?

Pettersson was awful last year as well. Signing him was a big risk. I didn't want him to be resigned. And I thought he would be our greatest player in history, at one time.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Pastafarian

[iinatcc]

3 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Was it luck?  Maybe?  Probably?  But who cares.  I didn’t see anyone complaining in 2006-2007 when we made a surprise 2nd round appearance so why make excuses for that 2019-2020 team?  

I can reply straight at the end. After 2007 Canucks barley missed the playoffs and bounced back the year after.

 

The season after the bubble the Canucks were dead last in the division and it looks to be worse this season. 

 

So in the last 8 years the Canucks only appeared in the playoffs twice and the other 6 seasons the best the Canucks did was 81 pts (last season Canucks were at a 73 point pace). So what's more indicative of the team? The two seasons they made it to the playoffs (with one being a shortened season) or the 6 (with 5 full seasons) they missed?  

 

Edit .. Also to take into account the old core is already gone and it's these last few seasons really shows what the team is 

 

Also one thing I need to point most (if not all) objective models that predicts the season had the Canucks missing the playoffs. Most media outside Vancouver had Canucks missing the playoffs. And these predictions usually only take roster construction into consideration and not who is the coach 

 

All of this suggests this roster, that Benning built, is not a playoff team. 

 

As Thomas Drance said for us to think otherwise would be arrogant and just means we're in denial 

Edited November 27, 2021 by iinatcc

[Johnny Torts]

When is green getting fired fr though…

 

wtf no wt actual f is going on here…

[Ballisticsports.]

5 hours ago, combover said:

Everyone new the team needed a rebuild fans players coach’s ex gm.

jim thought he could do a retool he was wrong. 
 disrespectful…

come on.

 

the team was done. The rebuild should have started then.  he was the gm who decided not to do it put any spin you want he’s been here 8 years the team is still terrible and lacks depth at every position the farm has no youth ready to move up.
 

Jb has had more than enough opportunity to fix the mess he made if he could he would he can’t because he hasn’t.
in results based business you get fired for that. 
regardless of how we got here we’re here and we aren’t good. That falls in the guy that put the group together especially when it’s not a one off. 

 

 

JB never had Any GM job before coming here or President role and now has both basically

Now he gets to make every decision

Trevor did not want to be just a figurehead and have his name attached to something he did not believe in

If You're President, then you are not over ruled because your GM goes to the Owner and states, I can turn this team around

So he kept his ethics and stepped down, rather than just collect a paycheque

 

Trevor hired Benning

Trevor has now taken two bullets for this team

Stepping down for Messier

Stepping down for Benning

( HMMM, one was a Ranger that cheated to beat us in Final, other was a Bruin, which cheated to beat us as well)

(being traded wasn't Trevors choice)

Trevor has always been a Canuck and made his home here

I bet he hates doing those things and the effect it has had one our teams in doing so as he was Always a true Canuck and always tried to help this team when asked

[highwayman3]

1 hour ago, Johnny Torts said:

When is green getting fired fr though…

 

wtf no wt actual f is going on here…

This is insane.  We are watching the season being flushed down the toilet with no accountability or changes.  It's bizarre, no idea wtf the organization is doing.  

[iinatcc]

10 hours ago, combover said:

Everyone new the team needed a rebuild fans players coach’s ex gm.

jim thought he could do a retool he was wrong. 
 disrespectful…

come on.

 

the team was done. The rebuild should have started then.  he was the gm who decided not to do it put any spin you want he’s been here 8 years the team is still terrible and lacks depth at every position the farm has no youth ready to move up.
 

Jb has had more than enough opportunity to fix the mess he made if he could he would he can’t because he hasn’t.
in results based business you get fired for that. 
regardless of how we got here we’re here and we aren’t good. That falls in the guy that put the group together especially when it’s not a one off. 

 

 

 

Agreed 

 

The thing is even if Canucks did a retool it might have worked if executed correctly. Look what Boston and now the Ducks have accomplished retooling. 

 

Retool or rebuild, Benning had his hand in both approaches and he's failed at both 

Edited November 27, 2021 by iinatcc

[Westcoasting]

3 hours ago, iinatcc said:

 

Agreed 

 

The thing is even if Canucks did a retool it might have worked if executed correctly. Look what Boston and now the Ducks have accomplished retooling. 

 

Retool or rebuild, Benning had his hand in both approaches and he's failed at both 

But we are going to be good because JB I a drafting  guru...

[kanucks25]

23 hours ago, JM_ said:

I guess what I see is if we had e.g., a healthy functioning Sutter we'd maybe be .500 due to his PK skills. What I don't like about Jim is he really didn't have a good plan B for 3C, and thats where this thing is really off the rails. I like Poolman's game but that money would have been better spent on a true 3C with Dickie's salary.

I mean yeah Sutter probably would have helped because of his RH, FO's and defense but like if we're relying that much on Brandon freaking Sutter in 2021, that's piss poor planning.

 

23 hours ago, JM_ said:

I think sometimes Jim jumps on a decent offer like a 3rd round pick for Dickie or Schmidt, but doesn't consider the fit enough. Its clear we need some better long term planning for the team, which is something neither Linden or Benning seem to bring.

Yes and no.

 

The combination of poor roster construction and poor pro scouting is definitely Benning's Achilles heel. Dickinson is a prime example of a Benning move.

 

But IMO Schmidt for a 3rd is a good trade in pretty much any universe. I don't think he was necessarily a bad fit here, but some (well at this point, almost all) of our players look bad here because the organization is a mess. It's a top-down failure; it's simply not an environment that breeds success. That's why someone like Schmidt looked good in Vegas and looks good in Winnipeg.

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

I mean yeah Sutter probably would have helped because of his RH, FO's and defense but like if we're relying that much on Brandon freaking Sutter in 2021, that's piss poor planning.

 

Yes and no.

 

The combination of poor roster construction and poor pro scouting is definitely Benning's Achilles heel. Dickinson is a prime example of a Benning move.

 

But IMO Schmidt for a 3rd is a good trade in pretty much any universe. I don't think he was necessarily a bad fit here, but some (well at this point, almost all) of our players look bad here because the organization is a mess. It's a top-down failure; it's simply not an environment that breeds success. That's why someone like Schmidt looked good in Vegas and looks good in Winnipeg.

yeah the pro scouting snafu's have been a mystery. A few very good ones but some real stinkers too. Every team brings in meh players, its always been that extra year of contract thats bothered me. 

 

I keep coming back to Baer, e.g. why 3 years? where was he going to go? Love what Roussel does... but why 4 years? that extra contract year is the kind of thing I'm hoping we don't see moving forward. 

[MaxVerstappen33]

1 hour ago, kanucks25 said:

I mean yeah Sutter probably would have helped because of his RH, FO's and defense but like if we're relying that much on Brandon freaking Sutter in 2021, that's piss poor planning.

 

Yes and no.

 

The combination of poor roster construction and poor pro scouting is definitely Benning's Achilles heel. Dickinson is a prime example of a Benning move.

 

But IMO Schmidt for a 3rd is a good trade in pretty much any universe. I don't think he was necessarily a bad fit here, but some (well at this point, almost all) of our players look bad here because the organization is a mess. It's a top-down failure; it's simply not an environment that breeds success. That's why someone like Schmidt looked good in Vegas and looks good in Winnipeg.

I refuse to believe that all of these players are as bad as they are. Green has them playing so terribly that we have to re-evaluate players like Dickenson after a coaching change.

[MaxVerstappen33]

On 11/26/2021 at 11:36 AM, Patel Bure said:

#Trolling

 

What I don’t understand about HF and certain media members and posters on here, is why they are obsessed with “the 8 year rebuild” Schtick and how these guys seemingly imply that we are the exception rather than the norm.  First off, 8 years is factually incorrect.

 

2013:  1st round

2014: DNQ

2015: 1st round

2016:  DNQ (1st year of rebuild)

2017: DNQ

2018: DNQ

2019: DNQ 

2020: 2nd round

2021: DNQ

 

Second - take a look at all of the current top teams in the NHL right now be it Florida, NYI, Carolina, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Colorado, Calgary, Tampa Bay, etc, etc.

 

*All* of these teams struggled mightily for years on end before becoming good.  Even a team like Boston, who unlike the above, consistently qualified for the 1st round of the playoffs during their dark days, never actually won a playoff round.  Calgary struggled, made the 2nd round in 2015, and then struggled again.  Oilers struggled since 2006, made the 2nd round in 2017, and then struggled again.  Or how about the Colorado Avalanche who struggled for the most part since 2008, and ended up a lottery team in 2017? (drafting Cale Makar).

 

So again I ask, how are we any different?

 

I think where a lot of the confusion comes in, is the fact that Benning spent to the cap between 2015-2020 and so mediocre minded fans equated this to Benning “trying to go for it” rather than realizing that Benning was paying a premium for veteran leadership so that 

 

A) The kids and prospects in our line up would not be rushed into roles that they were not ready for.  All internal promotions would be merit based.
 

B-) The vets would hold the kids accountable both on and off the ice even if these vets themselves couldn’t quite perform like they once did.

 

The Canucks were rebuilding between 2015-2020 and so it’s not like they would have been able to sign high ticket free agents during that time (ie Stamkos).   The other problem with these mediocre minded fans is that they assume that signing PTO’s and cheap vets are like shooting fish instead barrel when it’s anything but.  PTO’s won’t just sign with any team.  PTO’s will only sign with a team if the role that’s being asked of them will make sense for both the player and organization (ie Thomas Vanek).

 

As far as post bubble goes, I don’t see what Benning could have done differently other than 

 

1) Moving on from Green when Gerard Gallant became available 

 

2) Moving on from Virtanen and Jordie Benn while finding a way to commit to Toffoli.  
 

How is Benning’s fault that Travis Green completely misused Nate Schmidt?   People on here criticize Benning for bringing in Braden Holtby, but in theory, he was exactly what this team needed (1A goalie) since the Canucks needed to make sure that they weren’t throwing Demko to the wolves right away (ie properly acclimate to the #1 role).

 

Yes - Benning double downed in the summer and gave away his 1st in order to move bad contracts, but he also got two solid pieces in Garland and OEL (a player that has been great for us even though everyone on HF felt that he’d be a train wreck).  Benning did his core a justice by using a 1st to move bad contracts because this core needed to start competing now instead of relieving the 2020-2021 season.

 

I know the Canucks are in shambles right now but I fail to see how this is any of Benning’s fault (other than being too loyal to Green).  How can Pettersson and Boeser completely falling off a Cliff be Benning’s fault? (Unless Benning was aware of some weird lockerroom dynamics that started to develop post bubble).

I agree mostly. Its all the dregs in the hockey media going on and on about 8 years too.  And to think, a lot of Jim Bennings critics are warm to the idea of bringing in Jim Rutherford. Now that would be funny to watch.

 

Benning didn't just spend to the cap for leadership. He did it just in case a team catches fire and happens to make the playoffs and go on a run. Then you have a chance.

Edited November 28, 2021 by MaxVerstappen33

[Patel Bure]

12 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

I agree mostly. Its all the dregs in the hockey media going on and on about 8 years too.  And to think, a lot of Jim Bennings critics are warm to the idea of bringing in Jim Rutherford. Now that would be funny to watch.

Ratherford = the drizzling $&!#s, lol.   &^@# that guy.  

 

Canucks next GM needs to be a stone cold savage killer with genius intellect.........like Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic.   I liked Benning but his loyalty to Green cost us in my opinion......and Benning ultimately dropped the ball.   We need someone who is savage like Stevie Y and Sakic (i.e. the two best GM's in the league imo, and up there with the GOAT's like Scotty Bowman).  

 

Maybe Mark Messier would have been ideal here but hiring him in Vancouver would be a PR nightmare, lol.  Assuming that we got rid of both Benning and Weisbrod, bringing back Gillis and Trevor Linden would be phenomenal from a PR standpoint, but would the Aqua's be able to repair the relationship with them?   Linden as President, Gillis as GM, the twins as whatever.....

Edited November 28, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Westcoasting]

57 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

I refuse to believe that all of these players are as bad as they are. Green has them playing so terribly that we have to re-evaluate players like Dickenson after a coaching change.

Coach will come after a new GM, they always want to pick their own coach.