[proposal] At what point, would using our 9OA as a sweetener be acceptable?

[Patel Bure]

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Still a non-starter for me.  Dumbass did that in Toronto and look at where they are now.

Fair enough.  Although I can’t recall what Toronto did with that freed up cap space. I can only comment on our situation.   It’s like I said earlier, 9-12 million in freed up cap space would give the Canucks a boat load of options.  Maybe they choose to give Petey and Hughes their 8 year deals

now and secure then organization’s future?  Maybe that 9 million becomes Philip Danault + David Savard?   Or Adam Larsson + Jaden Schwartz?  Or Adam Larsson + Brandon Saad?   Or maybe we agree to take on Tyler Johnson’s contract if they give us Erik Cernak?  (A guy who is arugably worth more than a 9th OA at this point).   
 

Lots of options.  Maybe I’m way off base here but that’s how I see it.

[Patel Bure]

3 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Grrrrrrrr!

LOL.   But seriously - Am I wrong here?   I’ll happily admit it if my thought process is off here but there’s a LOT of things that the Canucks can do with freed up 9-12 million in this off season.....especially with this expansion draft looming.   
 

I mean you said it yourself in both this thread and other threads.  We need an RHD (preferably stay at home), and you and I both agree that having a young asset that will be a superstar in this league for the next 10 years is a swell thing to have.   I hear this team in Tampa Bay will be having cap issues.  My spidey senses also tell me that the Canucks two biggest needs are a 3rd line center and a top pairing RD that can be the “ying to the Yang” to sir Quinn Hughes!

 

To Vancouver:  Tyler Johnson + Erik Cernak

To Tampa:  George Costanza.

 

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser

Pearson-Horvat-Hoglander

Roussel-Johnson-Podkolzin

Motte-Lind-Highmore 

 

Hughes-Cernak. ;););););)

Rathbone-Hamonic (or Larsson if we can afford)

Juolevi-Myers

 

Demko

Holtby

 

[Roger Neilsons Towel]

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Not for clearing cap.

 

I'd want a solid young player that will fit in with the core of this group. Young top 6 forward or top 4 D

 

3 hours ago, Phil_314 said:

We should just eat that year of cap hit (bury them in the minors if they aren't productive) and let them fall off the books.

The value of having the young player on his ELC (or someone like Erik Cernak in a trade) would be much more important for at least a couple seasons, so I'd rather not just dump a pick to lose them.

This. 

 

If the 9th is truly in play, it shouldn't be used to dump short term headaches. Loui is up in a year, Beagle is likely LTIR. If it comes down to it we can buy out Roussel. 

 

You either draft a player who will be cost controlled (important, given how Petey and Quinn are being paid this year and that we'll need to make cap decisions regarding Horvat/Boeser/Miller within the next few years) or use it to bring in a piece that will theoretically improve the team we have in place. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Coconuts

[J.I.A.H.N]

7 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

LOL.   But seriously - Am I wrong here?   I’ll happily admit it if my thought process is off here but there’s a LOT of things that the Canucks can do with freed up 9-12 million in this off season.....especially with this expansion draft looming.   
 

I mean you said it yourself in both this thread and other threads.  We need an RHD (preferably stay at home), and you and I both agree that having a young asset that will be a superstar in this league for the next 10 years is a swell thing to have.   I hear this team in Tampa Bay will be having cap issues.  My spidey senses also tell me that the Canucks two biggest needs are a 3rd line center and a top pairing RD that can be the “ying to the Yang” to sir Quinn Hughes!

 

To Vancouver:  Tyler Johnson + Erik Cernak

To Tampa:  George Costanza.

 

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser

Pearson-Horvat-Hoglander

Roussel-Johnson-Podkolzin

Motte-Lind-Highmore 

 

Hughes-Cernak. ;););););)

Rathbone-Hamonic (or Larsson if we can afford)

Juolevi-Myers

 

Demko

Holtby

 

We are at 65 Million today, without buying out Holtby, Roussel, or Virtanen. so Consider another 5 million off of the 65, if we needed to......so 60 million and only giving out 

12/13 million to Pettersson and Hughes...........so we already have some and that is without moving Schmidt's 6 Million

 

Why the heck are you giving away things? NIce things!

[Patel Bure]

2 minutes ago, Roger Neilsons Towel said:

Neither do I, but still......

 

While I understand posters’ criticism of my post in terms of pissing away a potential superstar asset in our 9OA, my whole argument is that we could just as easily bring in a young solid RFA by weaponizing our cap space.  Teams like Tampa, Carolina, NYI, and Colorado will have a number of tremendous young players that could easily be had.

[King Heffy]

21 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

Fair enough.  Although I can’t recall what Toronto did with that freed up cap space. I can only comment on our situation.   It’s like I said earlier, 9-12 million in freed up cap space would give the Canucks a boat load of options.  Maybe they choose to give Petey and Hughes their 8 year deals

now and secure then organization’s future?  Maybe that 9 million becomes Philip Danault + David Savard?   Or Adam Larsson + Jaden Schwartz?  Or Adam Larsson + Brandon Saad?   Or maybe we agree to take on Tyler Johnson’s contract if they give us Erik Cernak?  (A guy who is arugably worth more than a 9th OA at this point).   
 

Lots of options.  Maybe I’m way off base here but that’s how I see it.

And we can weaponize the same amount of cap the following offseason, for free.

[Patel Bure]

1 minute ago, janisahockeynut said:

We are at 65 Million today, without buying out Holtby, Roussel, or Virtanen. so Consider another 5 million off of the 65, if we needed to......so 60 million and only giving out 

12/13 million to Pettersson and Hughes...........so we already have some and that is without moving Schmidt's 6 Million

 

Why the heck are you giving away things? NIce things!

But under my plan, we’d be able to achieve your wet dream of potentially landing Dougie Hamilton!  :-p

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 minute ago, Patel Bure said:

Neither do I, but still......

 

While I understand posters’ criticism of my post in terms of pissing away a potential superstar asset in our 9OA, my whole argument is that we could just as easily bring in a young solid RFA by weaponizing our cap space.  Teams like Tampa, Carolina, NYI, and Colorado will have a number of tremendous young players that could easily be had.

Patel...refer to my last post

 

But secondly........we have to have a endless supply of ELC, to keep the cap down.....that 9th is 2 or 3 years away, and just in time to replace an aging veteran and allow us to sign someone else

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 minute ago, Patel Bure said:

But under my plan, we’d be able to achieve your wet dream of potentially landing Dougie Hamilton!  :-p

But we still could, if we wanted to..that is the point

 

The secret is to not do what Vegas did and paint yourself into a corner

[Coconuts]

I understand wanting to improve the present team, but management has to do more than that. Management has to look beyond players like Miller, Horvat, and Demko. Time flies quick, even Pettersson, Hughes, and Boeser won't be young forever. You've always gotta balance competing with drafting the next wave, not doing so is what got us into trouble with Gillis. Our drafting was mostly $&!#, we traded picks, we couldn't bring in our own cost controlled quality youth. Top picks typically get the best players, teams don't typically trade them and you pay out the ass via ufa. Building from within is the way. 

 

Trading first round picks shouldn't be done lightly, particularly to free up space a year early when we're not even contenders. I'd personally prioritize drafting more talented youth over trading the pick, but I value picks highly. Depends on what's out there though, of course. 

 

But yeah, trading the 9th to move out a short term headache to bust a financial nut a year early and bring in a shiny new toy just seems silly and shortsighted. 

[Patel Bure]

5 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

And we can weaponize the same amount of cap the following offseason, for free.

This is true, but we also have to consider the fact that having another season like the one we just had could start leading to a toxic lockerroom.  We saw what happened in Columbus and Buffalo for instance.  Maybe I’m wrong here but I feel like a lot of our core players from 2020 were confused by our decision to let guys like Toffoli, Markstrom, and Tanev walk, and that it illustrated a change of direction.  On that same note, I also believe that a lot of that 2020 roster understood our cap situation and were willing to let this past season be our anomaly, provided that a concerted and genuine effort was made by management to bring in help for the 21-22 season.

 

My guess is that IF management stand pat and do little to nothing of significance in this off season, it’s going to start pissing off guys like Horvat, Petey, Boeser, and Quinn....guys that were a part of that 2nd round team and then had the rugs seemingly swept from under them by management.  Even guys like Miller and Myers that were brought in by management under the premise that they’d be playing for a competitive team will start to get irked.   
 

Of course we will have tons of options in the 22 offseason when Beagle, Roussel, Eriksson, Holtby , and Luongo all come off the books, but I am also of the opinion that management really needs to make an aggressive push as early as this off season.......otherwise things could start to get toxic.

[Patel Bure]

6 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I understand wanting to improve the present team, but management has to do more than that. Management has to look beyond players like Miller, Horvat, and Demko. Time flies quick, even Pettersson, Hughes, and Boeser won't be young forever. You've always gotta balance competing with drafting the next wave, not doing so is what got us into trouble with Gillis. Our drafting was mostly $&!#, we traded picks, we couldn't bring in our own cost controlled quality youth. Top picks typically get the best players, teams don't typically trade them and you pay out the ass via ufa. Building from within is the way. 

 

Trading first round picks shouldn't be done lightly, particularly to free up space a year early when we're not even contenders. I'd personally prioritize drafting more talented youth over trading the pick, but I value picks highly. Depends on what's out there though, of course. 

 

But yeah, trading the 9th to move out a short term headache to bust a financial nut a year early and bring in a shiny new toy just seems silly and shortsighted. 

Let me ask you this Coconuts:  I honestly don’t know if Tampa would be open to the following, but let’s just say that they were willing to give us Erik Cernak if we took on Tyler Johnson’s contract in its entirety.  Or if not Tampa, maybe a team like the Islanders were willing to give us Noah Dobson if we took on Andrew Ladd.   If those were the types of deals that were offered to us, due to elite teams being hopelessly cap strapped with the Expansion draft looming, would you be willing to use our 9OA as a sweetener to get rid of both Eriksson and Beagle before all of this?  
 

Don’t get me wrong - I completely get what you’re saying.  From a Devil’s advocate perspective however, I would argue that an Erik Cernak or a Noah Dobson would much more valuable than a 9thOA.....AND would fit our biggest organizational need (top pairing stay at home RD for both the short term and long term).  

[qwijibo]

I’m curious. Other than Vegas who actually came out ahead in the last expansion draft by “weaponizing cap space”?  I can’t think of anyone.  There were just teams who tried to minimize losses by making deals with Vegas. Pretty much every single team that made a deal ended up regretting it 

[Coconuts]

23 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

Let me ask you this Coconuts:  I honestly don’t know if Tampa would be open to the following, but let’s just say that they were willing to give us Erik Cernak if we took on Tyler Johnson’s contract in its entirety.  Or if not Tampa, maybe a team like the Islanders were willing to give us Noah Dobson if we took on Andrew Ladd.   If those were the types of deals that were offered to us, due to elite teams being hopelessly cap strapped with the Expansion draft looming, would you be willing to use our 9OA as a sweetener to get rid of both Eriksson and Beagle before all of this?  
 

Don’t get me wrong - I completely get what you’re saying.  From a Devil’s advocate perspective however, I would argue that an Erik Cernak or a Noah Dobson would much more valuable than a 9thOA.....AND would fit our biggest organizational need (top pairing stay at home RD for both the short term and long term).  

Nah, I don't think I would be. Any benefit we get from such a deal has a steep cost. Not only are we taking on a contract and cap dollars, we're taking on two while giving up a top pick. Not when we can wait a year, deal from a position of strength because of open cap some teams won't have, and retain our pick. I see the crunched cap impacting contracts and what moves teams are able to make next offseason, and giving up our projected cap flex is yet another asset we'd have to sacrifice for such a move. 

 

We're not even a guaranteed playoff team at this point, let alone a contender, and there's no guarantee bringing in either player would change that. I'm more than happy to be patient, we've suffered Eriksson this long. I think Podz play this coming season will remind many of the value of having cost controlled talent within the system. Hell, eventually him and Hoglander will need to be re-upped too, keeping that pipeline stocked is so important. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Coconuts

[MrCanuck94]

2 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Well, hypothetically speaking, let’s just say that a 1st as a sweetener allowed you to get rid of Eriksson + Beagle (9 million).   So - the receiving team would get a potential long term elite player for only one year salary dumps (as you say).   That’s the selling point for the other team.  So - what’s in it for us?  A myriad of options:  With that freed up money, maybe you.......

 

A) Give both Petey and Hughes their 8 year deals now as opposed to giving them a bridge.

 

B-) Go hard after Dougie Hamilton

 

C-) Go hard after Danault+ (maybe Danault + Larsson?)

 

D) Weaponize your new found cap space and take on a cap dump in order to secure a young established top tier RFA. 
 

Most importantly however, you convince the players, fans, and other local stakeholders that losing is unacceptable and that the Canucks are serious about making a significant push this year.  All of us can romanticize about how “we only have bad contacts for one more year,” etc., but players are sentient beings.  The last thing you want is to have a repeat of this past season and potentially create a toxic lockerroom like the one we saw in Buffalo, Columbus, etc.  

It is still a one year plan.

 

Signing Quinn and Petey long-term would likely add 3+ mill to each cap hit, which would close to cancel most of the added cap space and only give room for a middle type player contract. That doesn't seem like an efficient use of dumping a top ten pick.

 

We can do the same thing in the UFA market next season without sacrificing what could be a key piece to put us over the top in a couple of seasons on an ELC. As long as Petey and Quinn are still RFAs after the bridge contract, we're completely fine.

Edited July 12, 2021 by MrCanuck94

[IBatch]

Makes zero sense to clear cap early for this crop of UFAs unless his name is Hamilton.   He's scored more goals then any other D the last four years, even with missing 21 games, is tops 5 x 5 goal scoring too (so not just PP), sixth in rushing chances, and has a differential of plus 429 the last three seasons.    And he's a RHD who's 3.5 years younger then AP was in his walk year.    To me that's the line in the sand - and even then i'd prefer buyouts that don't cost us much like Holtby and JV, before we dip into next years money.    So hard pass most likely, a two year gap in our pool isn't going to work unless it's for an actual player like Reinhardt.    Team is still a couple players away from perrenial playoff contention, pretty sure Podz is one of those guys, and maybe OJ or Rathbone is too,  

 

Our D needs work.   Willing to give Schmidt another chance but he does scare me a little too.  

 

Think that we need to just keep taking our medicine.    Let the cap shed naturally, see how Gads is (and protect him), draft the BPA at 9 and see it through.    But i wouldn't be opposed to Reinhardt either (trade and re-sign deal only).   

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I understand wanting to improve the present team, but management has to do more than that. Management has to look beyond players like Miller, Horvat, and Demko. Time flies quick, even Pettersson, Hughes, and Boeser won't be young forever. You've always gotta balance competing with drafting the next wave, not doing so is what got us into trouble with Gillis. Our drafting was mostly $&!#, we traded picks, we couldn't bring in our own cost controlled quality youth. Top picks typically get the best players, teams don't typically trade them and you pay out the ass via ufa. Building from within is the way. 

 

Trading first round picks shouldn't be done lightly, particularly to free up space a year early when we're not even contenders. I'd personally prioritize drafting more talented youth over trading the pick, but I value picks highly. Depends on what's out there though, of course. 

 

But yeah, trading the 9th to move out a short term headache to bust a financial nut a year early and bring in a shiny new toy just seems silly and shortsighted. 

To me it has to be part of a larger plan like open the window now.   The only thing i could think of that could do that, and of course comes with risk (any strategy has, picking at 9th and busting for sure could happen too, and this year probably more so given the lack of sample size with these guys) is if Reinhardt really wants out as reported, and our 9th overall is the best offer (that's all id give them) ... then we go a step further and trade QHs...plus minus to even it's out for Chychrun, Ekblad or whomever - a more mature, bigger and better balanced D who can also defend. That would open the window while Miller and Horvat are here or at least before they become UFAs.   It's not what i want the team to do, id rather just stand pat and follow up last off season with a similar plan to let the cap shed.   But if it did happen i'd at least understand it.  Winning the cup is the ultimate goal and these guys need playoff reps to do that.    

 

Getting a 9th overall this year, and say a 12th next season probably is the best medicine over the long haul.    But at some point a team needs to start going for it.   

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Let me ask you this Coconuts:  I honestly don’t know if Tampa would be open to the following, but let’s just say that they were willing to give us Erik Cernak if we took on Tyler Johnson’s contract in its entirety.  Or if not Tampa, maybe a team like the Islanders were willing to give us Noah Dobson if we took on Andrew Ladd.   If those were the types of deals that were offered to us, due to elite teams being hopelessly cap strapped with the Expansion draft looming, would you be willing to use our 9OA as a sweetener to get rid of both Eriksson and Beagle before all of this?  
 

Don’t get me wrong - I completely get what you’re saying.  From a Devil’s advocate perspective however, I would argue that an Erik Cernak or a Noah Dobson would much more valuable than a 9thOA.....AND would fit our biggest organizational need (top pairing stay at home RD for both the short term and long term).  

Thing is Horvat and Miller and BB next deals are ticking.    All we need to do is hold out for one more season.   Dobson and Cernak would both be great.   Man this is a bit of a mess.   Not sure what the best course of action is, but for sure we will have a much more competitive team if we can keep a healthy diet of impact rookies coming in.  

[Putgolzin]

5 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

LOL.   But seriously - Am I wrong here?   I’ll happily admit it if my thought process is off here but there’s a LOT of things that the Canucks can do with freed up 9-12 million in this off season.....especially with this expansion draft looming.   
 

 

The whole concept is doubling-down on previous mistakes.

We made a bad move in the past - now we'll throw a giant asset at it to try and erase/reset back to the point the bad move was made, and we'll hopefully not make a similar bad move with the reclaimed cap space.

Much better to swallow the fact that everyone makes bad moves and ride it out.

And use assets such as this draft pick to build forward rather than erase back.