With all due respect, I think the consensus on this board that Miller is getting traded before the TDL and the Canucks aren't making the playoffs is highly premature

[Jaimito]

 

 

 

 

[aGENT]

2 hours ago, Putgolzin said:

Agreed, and that’s a dark outlook.

 

Its almost as if Benning’s tenure was tied directly toPetey (and Brock to a lesser extent).
He got lots of rope, but when they started to fall short, Benning’s obvious shortcomings became the focus rather than the backburning considerations.

Rebuilds always live or die on the core that is selected. That's not something Benning-centric. And I'm not particularly worried about Petey personally. And again, more about Hughes, Petey and Demko (also Horvat). Boeser is secondary.

[RU SERIOUS]

On 2/7/2022 at 10:53 AM, aGENT said:

Rebuilds always live or die on the core that is selected. That's not something Benning-centric. And I'm not particularly worried about Petey personally. And again, more about Hughes, Petey and Demko (also Horvat). Boeser is secondary.

Something tells me that Boeser will be the 2nd to go (After HaLack) as there not a snowballs chance in hell he gets a >/+7.5M qualifying offer.  He is only a shooter and offers absolutely no other advantageous skills to this team, as he can't skate, can't stick handle, doesn't play physical, doesn't back-check, can't handle the puck well and is as slow as mollasses and for that same $7.5 M we can easily get a player that can score the same amount as him and likely do at least a 2-3 of those other functions well that are beyond Brocks abilities.    So don't be suprised if he is gone in the next 4 weeks! You heard it here first!

Edited February 11, 2022 by RU SERIOUS

[IBatch]

On 2/7/2022 at 1:53 PM, aGENT said:

Rebuilds always live or die on the core that is selected. That's not something Benning-centric. And I'm not particularly worried about Petey personally. And again, more about Hughes, Petey and Demko (also Horvat). Boeser is secondary.

Yes the core and any players traded that become core as well.   For both the Quin and WCE era teams, a lot of key core guys came in from trades acquired from the previous core.   McLean, Ronning (he was only a few years older then Linden and Bure - the only core guys they drafted really, well Nedved too who basically ended up as Hedican) .... Jovo, Naslund, Bertuzzi, Morrison - even McAbe (early on) ... plus the Sedins WCE era etc.     Right now Miller is "core" for sure just up to the team to decide if they re-sign or trade him (you know how i feel about that,  almost certainly a good idea)...OEL and even Garland maybe could be considered core as well but not really.    Actually Ronning, Jovo, Bertuzzi, Morrison, Luongo, the Sedins are all good examples of why trading a core player can work out well for the team - and it doesn't even get into Adams, Courtnall, Momesso - let's say Garland is in that crowd .... super important players that also end up as a result of trades but maybe not "core" per say.    Adams and Courtnall were vets in their primes ....

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Something tells me that Boeser will be the 2nd to go (After HaLack) as there not a snowballs chance in hell he gets a >/+7.5M qualifying offer.  He is only a shooter and offers absolutely no other advantageous skills to this team, as he can't skate, can't stick handle, doesn't play physical, doesn't back-check, can't handle the puck well and is as slow as mollasses and for that same $7.5 M we can easily get a player that can score the same amount as him and likely do at least a 2-3 of those other functions well that are beyond Brocks abilities.    So don't be suprised if he is gone in the next 4 weeks! You heard it here first!

Well we've been talking about it on and off since he signed his second deal.    Arbitration is an option - if he's dumb enough not to sign a fair deal.    Can still pay him one year at 85% of that ... and then what he's actually earned (5.5-6) ... depends on how we can replace him.   And how that actually makes us better too, 

[aGENT]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Well we've been talking about it on and off since he signed his second deal.    Arbitration is an option - if he's dumb enough not to sign a fair deal.    Can still pay him one year at 85% of that ... and then what he's actually earned (5.5-6) ... depends on how we can replace him.   And how that actually makes us better too, 

He's also not nearly as 1 dimensional as serious mentioned there. His biggest issue is his lack of speed.

[RU SERIOUS]

6 hours ago, IBatch said:

Well we've been talking about it on and off since he signed his second deal.    Arbitration is an option - if he's dumb enough not to sign a fair deal.    Can still pay him one year at 85% of that ... and then what he's actually earned (5.5-6) ... depends on how we can replace him.   And how that actually makes us better too, 

 

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

He's also not nearly as 1 dimensional as serious mentioned there. His biggest issue is his lack of speed.

If his cost come in much less than his expected $7.5M Q.O., then I could see JR possibly keeping him, but given all his other drawbacks, I still wouldn't be surprised to see him go as JR (and I suspect all our other new staff) will come to the same conclusion - that this team is too slow and too small and timid to take us anywhere and they'll need every dollar to count if they are going to fix this mess and whether it's $5.5 or $7.5 million, they'll carefully weigh out the value in keeping him or not.and likely still trade him because of all his other deficits.

[RU SERIOUS]

6 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yes the core and any players traded that become core as well.   For both the Quin and WCE era teams, a lot of key core guys came in from trades acquired from the previous core.   McLean, Ronning (he was only a few years older then Linden and Bure - the only core guys they drafted really, well Nedved too who basically ended up as Hedican) .... Jovo, Naslund, Bertuzzi, Morrison - even McAbe (early on) ... plus the Sedins WCE era etc.     Right now Miller is "core" for sure just up to the team to decide if they re-sign or trade him (you know how i feel about that,  almost certainly a good idea)...OEL and even Garland maybe could be considered core as well but not really.    Actually Ronning, Jovo, Bertuzzi, Morrison, Luongo, the Sedins are all good examples of why trading a core player can work out well for the team - and it doesn't even get into Adams, Courtnall, Momesso - let's say Garland is in that crowd .... super important players that also end up as a result of trades but maybe not "core" per say.    Adams and Courtnall were vets in their primes ....

Interesting you mention OEL!   As I bet JR will unload him when the dismantling of the team begins in a few weeks.because of his Albatross contract that will surely become a problem in the very near future - especially given the rapid decline in his output this year - which is not what Jim Benning paid for and should be a red warning light to everyone. 

[aGENT]

37 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

 

If his cost come in much less than his expected $7.5M Q.O., then I could see JR possibly keeping him, but given all his other drawbacks, I still wouldn't be surprised to see him go as JR (and I suspect all our other new staff) will come to the same conclusion - that this team is too slow and too small and timid to take us anywhere and they'll need every dollar to count if they are going to fix this mess and whether it's $5.5 or $7.5 million, they'll carefully weigh out the value in keeping him or not.and likely still trade him because of all his other deficits.

Thanks tips.

[higgyfan]

49 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Interesting you mention OEL!   As I bet JR will unload him when the dismantling of the team begins in a few weeks.because of his Albatross contract that will surely become a problem in the very near future - especially given the rapid decline in his output this year - which is not what Jim Benning paid for and should be a red warning light to everyone. 

The rapid decline in OEL's offence is due to deployment.  We have all seen how his role has changed since Hughes has been out.  Omg...suddenly OEL can put up points!  He has averaged .5 gpg over his entire career, which also proves that this season is an anomaly, due to deployment.  The team coaches need to find a way to utilize his offensive skills. He has also been part of the reason Myers' game has miraculously improved.  He also has great skating and a large frame that serves him well in the d-zone.  His point shot often gets through to the goalie as well.

 

Many fans are worried about OEL declining during the remainder of his contract, which will end when he's 35yr.  I don't agree with this pov, as I think he is a very fit player who has had few injuries during his career so far.  Somewhat like the Sedins, who started their decline at 35yrs.  Even Edler, who had many injures and played a much harsher game (+++ hits and blocking shots) than OEL, didn't start his decline until he was 33. Incredibly, Eddie was LA's 2nd best dman before he suffered yet another bad injury.

 

My bet, is that if there is a decline in OEL's game, it won't be immediate.  It will be a gradual decrease in his final 2 contract yrs.  Even then, (barring a bad injury) his skill level, fitness and hockey smarts will allow him to continue to be a second pairing dman.

 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Interesting you mention OEL!   As I bet JR will unload him when the dismantling of the team begins in a few weeks.because of his Albatross contract that will surely become a problem in the very near future - especially given the rapid decline in his output this year - which is not what Jim Benning paid for and should be a red warning light to everyone. 

Meh.  Edler was also an "albotross" and re-upped him.   As far as his overall game goes, OEL/Myers is the best pairing we've had since Hamhuis Bieksa ... even then folks complained.    Rapid decline?  How's Chychrun doing by himself and how's QHs doing this year?

 

Might as well just blow the entire thing up and start from scratch (again).   Wonder what folks would think of that ... "8 long years"  will become 16.   Our as of right now, with the coaching staff and roster - is middling.   With a terrible pool.   Going to take some masterful magician work and some core ascension to make us contenders.   OEL is for sure a valuable player to us.    It's not all about points and is all about points at the same time.    Elder was the worst player in the league one year if you go by plus minus lol.  

[BC_Hawk]

11 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Something tells me that Boeser will be the 2nd to go (After HaLack) as there not a snowballs chance in hell he gets a >/+7.5M qualifying offer.  He is only a shooter and offers absolutely no other advantageous skills to this team, as he can't skate, can't stick handle, doesn't play physical, doesn't back-check, can't handle the puck well and is as slow as mollasses and for that same $7.5 M we can easily get a player that can score the same amount as him and likely do at least a 2-3 of those other functions well that are beyond Brocks abilities.    So don't be suprised if he is gone in the next 4 weeks! You heard it here first!

I agree on Beoser...and yes we can make better use of teh 7.5; his name is Miller and wouldn't cost us anything to acquire.

[BC_Hawk]

36 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Meh.  Edler was also an "albotross" and re-upped him.   As far as his overall game goes, OEL/Myers is the best pairing we've had since Hamhuis Bieksa ... even then folks complained.    Rapid decline?  How's Chychrun doing by himself and how's QHs doing this year?

 

Might as well just blow the entire thing up and start from scratch (again).   Wonder what folks would think of that ... "8 long years"  will become 16.   Our as of right now, with the coaching staff and roster - is middling.   With a terrible pool.   Going to take some masterful magician work and some core ascension to make us contenders.   OEL is for sure a valuable player to us.    It's not all about points and is all about points at the same time.    Elder was the worst player in the league one year if you go by plus minus lol.  

Exactly Ibatch; he's been deployed in a defensive role this year and that has affected his personal #s. In Hughes absence, he has been instructed to be more offensive, and we see the results in his #s the last couple games. What we need is our 2 starters back (poolman & Hamonic) so that we can showcase both of them for an unload at the TDL. THEN we can us that cap to go get a goodd Defensive RD and unleashes 3 very good pairings in 2022/23

Edited February 11, 2022 by BC_Hawk

[Jack Burton]

2 hours ago, BC_Hawk said:

Exactly Ibatch; he's been deployed in a defensive role this year and that has affected his personal #s. In Hughes absence, he has been instructed to be more offensive, and we see the results in his #s the last couple games. What we need is our 2 starters back (poolman & Hamonic) so that we can showcase both of them for an unload at the TDL. THEN we can us that cap to go get a goodd Defensive RD and unleashes 3 very good pairings in 2022/23

I know this might sound like I’m pushing it, but if they do trade Miller or Boeser, I want VAN to get a starting defensemen out of it. Not a prospect, but a current starter. Maximize return on the trade. I’d really like to see Chychrun come back to VAN in some kind of 3 way deal, if he’s on the block. Young, with a lot of potential. I hate watching teams trade All Star level players and they get a couple prospects who never really amount to squat. 
This is a new FO, but I’m hopeful they swing for the fences and we all are wowed by the returns instead of trying to make excuses and sound hopeful. 
And that’s if they even do make a trade. 

[higgyfan]

1 hour ago, HannibalSmith said:

I know this might sound like I’m pushing it, but if they do trade Miller or Boeser, I want VAN to get a starting defensemen out of it. Not a prospect, but a current starter. Maximize return on the trade. I’d really like to see Chychrun come back to VAN in some kind of 3 way deal, if he’s on the block. Young, with a lot of potential. I hate watching teams trade All Star level players and they get a couple prospects who never really amount to squat. 
This is a new FO, but I’m hopeful they swing for the fences and we all are wowed by the returns instead of trying to make excuses and sound hopeful. 
And that’s if they even do make a trade. 

I would be agreeable with your plan if Chychrun was and RD.  Our team already has Hughes and OEL, so they only need a bottom pairing LD and that isn't Chychrun.

 

Finding an established  top pairing young RD is very difficult as most teams won't trade them or will overcharge massively. At best, the GM will likely find a promising young prospect or rookie that the team can develop in the coming years.  It's not a sure thing, but if they get the right player it will be huge.  This is why so many fans would like to see an established player in any trade regarding Miller. 

[mll]

3 hours ago, higgyfan said:

I would be agreeable with your plan if Chychrun was and RD.  Our team already has Hughes and OEL, so they only need a bottom pairing LD and that isn't Chychrun.

 

Finding an established  top pairing young RD is very difficult as most teams won't trade them or will overcharge massively. At best, the GM will likely find a promising young prospect or rookie that the team can develop in the coming years.  It's not a sure thing, but if they get the right player it will be huge.  This is why so many fans would like to see an established player in any trade regarding Miller. 

How secure is OEL on a Rutherford built team?  Hasn't provided much offence, turns 31 this summer and his contract runs till he's 36.  Not really the age group they look to be building around and he has a 7.2M cap hit.

 

 

[wai_lai416]

20 hours ago, IBatch said:

Well we've been talking about it on and off since he signed his second deal.    Arbitration is an option - if he's dumb enough not to sign a fair deal.    Can still pay him one year at 85% of that ... and then what he's actually earned (5.5-6) ... depends on how we can replace him.   And how that actually makes us better too, 

you can't just assume oh boeser is having an off season we can take him to arbitration and easy only pay him 85% of his contract.. there are more than enough example out there of people getting paid in the 7-7.5mil range and only producing at his level this year.. + they will also look at his previous years too.. even if he hits arbitration i'm willing to bet he'll still end up with 7mil at least.. there's the JVR out there.. the anders lee.. they can even point at EP kevin hayes hircsher etc..

[IBatch]

On 2/7/2022 at 9:59 AM, Putgolzin said:

Agreed on moving Miller for big payback I guess. I still don't want to, but I accept it.

The only issue I keep coming back to is how bad our Top 9 looks without him in it.

 

Podkolzin Pettersson Boeser

Hoglander Horvat Garland

 

 

It absolutely relies on Petey and Boeser coming back into form. Both of whom have had most of their success with Miller around. If they both continue to play like 2nd/3rd liners, that's an awful lot of work to finish the puzzle.

EP actually had his most success with Goldobin...doesn't need Miller ... Brock was fine with Bear and Horvat too.    EP looks really good right now playing with a rookie and a sophomore - Brock's season for sure is underwhelming, same as Horvats really.    But all these guys don't need Miller to excel, because there is also evidence of that too.   Miller is a great addition to any line, and that's part of his strength.   I agree it doesn't look as good - but how would it look with a Zegras or Boldy or whomever (not saying we'd get one of those guys back - only that drafting one sure would be nice and or trading for someone who could end up like that for us).    

 

Have no problem trading someone else instead - whom would you suggest we trade instead?   And what impact does that have on the team long term (cap doesn't get better keeping Miller, part of that cost is a roster player out for a cheaper one)..   Like to see how the team plays down the stretch.   Pretty sure Allvin is going to get quite a few calls on four or five players.   And the ones they want the most are the ones that are cheap for us at the moment.  

[higgyfan]

9 hours ago, mll said:

How secure is OEL on a Rutherford built team?  Hasn't provided much offence, turns 31 this summer and his contract runs till he's 36.  Not really the age group they look to be building around and he has a 7.2M cap hit.

 

 

It appears that OEL could provide the needed offence if he were deployed differently, so that is up to the coaching staff.  I have no idea what Rutherford will do, but I would hope that, rather than lose a player like Miller for a LD, the gm would focus on what the team really needs; a RD.  OEL could surely play in the top 4 D pairing for at least 2-4yrs, which would give the gm time to find an appropriate replacement for OEL; either through the draft or trade.

 

The bottom line is that OEL has a NMC, so it's highly doubtful that he will be moving from Vancouver.   If we're lucky, he will be able to maintain the 2LD position until a youngin' is ready to replace him; sending him down to 3LD in his final year.

[Josepho]

Even if OEL didn't have trade protection, nobody would touch that contract.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Josepho