[PGT] St. Louis Blues at Vancouver Canucks | Mar. 30, 2022

[Harold Drunken]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

No he was was not ranked 6th on "many drafts".   Before the world juniors quite a few didn't even have him as a first rounder.    Some still didn't.   What he was considered by a few - was a 9-12 th pick.   We absolutely went off board with MT slipping.   He was someone who wasn't even supposed to be available at 5.    Sure maybe you can find a few that had him in the top 10, but just as many didn't.      He was considered the safest D available with the highest floor in the first round.   A year before that Chychrun  was considered a top 1-2 pick...OJ wasn't even on anyones radar really.    World Juniors.   Really messed with that draft a lot.   Also the "talk" that summer was we were picking a C.   And it was basically exactly virbatim - that it would be PLD.   "Big nasty C".   Almost no mention of a D.   Why?  Because well they weren't any in the top five to consider.   Barely the top ten either. 

 

ISS had OJ at 11...THN at 9.  

Yikes - I posted a list of all the respective prospect rankings, perhaps you should take a broader look. 

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2016-draft/nhl-draft-rankings/

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/juniors/sportsnets-final-top-30-2016-nhl-draft-prospects/

https://www.tsn.ca/matthews-goes-wire-to-wire-as-tsn-s-top-prospect-1.511597

https://www.espn.com/nhl/insider/story/_/id/15506495/patrik-laine-auston-matthews-lead-list-top-100-prospects-2016-nhl-draft

https://thehockeynews.com/news/final-rankings-the-top-120-prospects-for-the-2016-draft

https://hockeyprospect.com/2016-nhl-draft-rankings-hockeyprospect-com-final-top-30/

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/top-100-prospects-2016-nhl-draft/story?id=39091742

 

I'd like to sit here and argue real life with you, but the facts are vast majority had him ranked top 10 and top 5 - this isn't' really arguable because it already

happened and it's on paper....I fully understand you somehow disagree with all these dedicated experts and professionals, but NHL Central Scouting and about 90% of professional scouts and analysts disagree with you. You are very incorrect in your assessment- how can he "not be on anyone's radar" when the NHL ITSELF (who ranked him 5th), TSN, NHL Central Scouting, NA Central Scouting, Craig Button, Hockey Prospect, The Hockey News, Bleacher Report, Sportsnet, ESPN (I could go on) all had him ranked top 10. You're WILDLY incorrect with your assessment - I'll leave it at that. 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Harold Drunken

[tas]

2 hours ago, wildwood12 said:

Bobby Clarke publicly trashed their former GM Hextall for taking Nolan Patrick. He said their scouts wanted Makar. But Hextall took it on himself to take Patrick. Bobby Clarke is quite bitter about it still.

wouldn't you be?

[N4ZZY]

1 hour ago, Harold Drunken said:

100%, if you draft for need you're much more likely to reach and overlook. If you're lucky, the BPA is a need as well. I just don't understand how to label Juolevi a reach, I get he was a bust but he was a grade A highly ranked prospect- like many other top 10 D that didn't' pan out...that's the draft, if they all worked out being a GM would be a little less stressful....you're selecting teenagers.

I think if Juolevi was healthier, his chances of becoming a consistent NHL player would have been greater. He just could not stay healthy, and that’s a big part of the game too right? Can’t play if you’re always hurt. 

 

[N4ZZY]

10 minutes ago, tas said:

wouldn't you be?

I would be seeing how Makar turned out. 

 

 

[Harold Drunken]

4 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

I think if Juolevi was healthier, his chances of becoming a consistent NHL player would have been greater. He just could not stay healthy, and that’s a big part of the game too right? Can’t play if you’re always hurt. 

 

Totally agree, it stunts their development and sets them back...some just can never overcome that set back and catch up. Juolevi is or was obviously a talented player - some said he also played on an ultra talented Knights team and that may have exaggerated his production. I don't know I'm not a scout, however the vast majority of the hockey world had him ranked as a top 10 or top 5 prospect so they all saw something. Sometimes you don't know and just can't explain why highly touted players don't adjust to the NHL game. It is what it is and happens quite often - it's not an outlier that happens to this organization solely. 

[JM_]

3 hours ago, wildwood12 said:

Bobby Clarke publicly trashed their former GM Hextall for taking Nolan Patrick. He said their scouts wanted Makar. But Hextall took it on himself to take Patrick. Bobby Clarke is quite bitter about it still.

ouch, I hadn't heard that one. I thought for sure Patrick would fall, I'm just happy he didn't fall to us. 

[BlastPast]

3 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

Is he worth 7.5M long term? 

 

Not at this point and he won't get it. I'm not sure if people realize that 7.5 is just a qualifying offer in the event they cannot reach an agreement. There is nothing stopping both sides from agreeing that 7.5 is too high and coming to a lower number on a longer term deal. At this point I'm not sure even his agent would think he is worth 7.5 on a long term deal. 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Harold Drunken said:

Yikes - I posted a list of all the respective prospect rankings, perhaps you should take a broader look. 

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2016-draft/nhl-draft-rankings/

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/juniors/sportsnets-final-top-30-2016-nhl-draft-prospects/

https://www.tsn.ca/matthews-goes-wire-to-wire-as-tsn-s-top-prospect-1.511597

https://www.espn.com/nhl/insider/story/_/id/15506495/patrik-laine-auston-matthews-lead-list-top-100-prospects-2016-nhl-draft

https://thehockeynews.com/news/final-rankings-the-top-120-prospects-for-the-2016-draft

https://hockeyprospect.com/2016-nhl-draft-rankings-hockeyprospect-com-final-top-30/

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/top-100-prospects-2016-nhl-draft/story?id=39091742

 

I'd like to sit here and argue real life with you, but the facts are vast majority had him ranked top 10 and top 5 - this isn't' really arguable because it already

happened and it's on paper....I fully understand you somehow disagree with all these dedicated experts and professionals, but NHL Central Scouting and about 90% of professional scouts and analysts disagree with you. You are very incorrect in your assessment- how can he "not be on anyone's radar" when the NHL ITSELF (who ranked him 5th), TSN, NHL Central Scouting, NA Central Scouting, Craig Button, Hockey Prospect, The Hockey News, Bleacher Report, Sportsnet, ESPN (I could go on) all had him ranked top 10. You're WILDLY incorrect with your assessment - I'll leave it at that. 

 

Ryan Kennedy is a writer at THN.  Their final ranking was 9.   The Hockey News official ranking was 9.   And ISS which is the central scouting - had him at 11.   I'm not WILDLY incorrect in my information.   Why don't you go look at the pre World Juniors mid - season reports?    

[Harold Drunken]

16 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Ryan Kennedy is a writer at THN.  Their final ranking was 9.   The Hockey News official ranking was 9.   And ISS which is the central scouting - had him at 11.   I'm not WILDLY incorrect in my information.   Why don't you go look at the pre World Juniors mid - season reports?    

Interesting, even when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary you're still correct? So, a couple of your references say 9 and 11, but at least a dozen others say even higher yet you're still correct. You're 3 references trumps 12-15 others that have him ranked much higher....hmmm. Even after all those final rankings close to the draft I posted say otherwise you're still sticking to your guns. Ignorance is bliss I guess.....I literally can't post any more credible references that counter your argument so agree to disagree I guess. 

 

In the world of scouting some are going to rank players in different spots, but in this situation when 90% of them have him ranked 10 or higher...you're saying because 1 scout has him ranked 11th that means that is the final and only ranking to reference? That's pretty convenient for you hey?

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Harold Drunken

[Strawbone]

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Harold Drunken said:

Interesting, even when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary you're still correct? So, a couple of your references say 9 and 11, but at least a dozen others say even higher yet you're still correct. You're 3 references trumps 12-15 others that have him ranked much higher....hmmm. Even after all those final rankings close to the draft I posted say otherwise you're still sticking to your guns. Ignorance is bliss I guess.....I literally can't post any more credible references that counter your argument so agree to disagree I guess. 

 

In the world of scouting some are going to rank players in different spots, but in this situation when 90% of them have him ranked 10 or higher...you're saying because 1 scout has him ranked 11th that means that is the final and only ranking to reference? That's pretty convenient for you hey?

 

 

Ok.  Listen - FYI - i have a few guys that aren't pro/amateur  scouts and  that i care about.  Not Ryan Kennedy - a sports writer, or anyone aside from Button that i really give two hoots about.   I could provide a dozen individual writers that also go against your side of things.   But won't bother.   There are two things that i actually consider as the aggregate ranking for players - ONE - ISS - that's their job, not a website that's selling their product.   Their only job.   It's not a sports writer working for SN or TSN - although Button has some weight, given his background.   But it's not his JOB anymore either.    The other is THN aggregate ranking - NOT Ryan Kennedy, not Larkin, not their senior writers - but it's done in their future watch which is the aggregate ranking of ten NHL scouts - the average of ten NHL clubs.   That's 9.  ISS was 11.   And if you read my actual posts - i kept bringing up the world juniors.   For a reason.   The Fins won gold, OJ was given the defenseman award for the tourney and his stock skyrocketed.    It's a personal pet peeve of mine (World Juniors).    Whomever kills it moves up, who doesn't moves down.    Where was - OJ ranked in the mid season reports?  I mean on an absolutely loaded London team 40ish points doesn't scream top ten does it?  Heck even the next season post draft one Bouchard beat him out.   There was enough "experts" that didn't have OJ in the top of the draft to take pause.    More then enough.   Who even on this site had OJ as our pick?  Anyone!  Nobody did.  

 

Edit:  Also peace Druken.   Normally i wouldn't care too much about these sort of things - except this one time.    OJ wasn't supposed to be our pick - "A big truculent C" was supposed to be our pick.   In the end maybe it worked out because IF we had drafted MT he'd probably made us miss on EP, and then QHs.   10-15 extra goals would have moved us up.  

Edited April 1, 2022 by IBatch

[Elias Pettersson]

4 hours ago, aGENT said:

Juolevi wasn't off the board. He was the highest ranked D of the draft and right on par with Tkachuk in the rankings. $&!# happens. Players don't develop, have injury issues etc.

 

Good for those 2nd round picks. Again, those guys were largely luck/late bloomers with as big of a bust risk as their upside. That's WHY they feel to the 2nd round instead of going on the first. If they didn't have question marks, they'd have gone in the first. Newsflash, the draft can be a major crap shoot, regardless of your scouting.

 

There's zero reason to be scared to draft D in the first. It's a silly sentiment. As is the idea that any D you take in the second is a solid chance to be a Norris candidate. That's just goofy logic.

 

Most of them went top 10 picks. Nor was Chychrun, who half this board wants us to trade for.

Sorry, but prior to the world junior’s that year Tkachuk was ranked #2 and Juolevi was #16.  They were not even close prior to the tournament. After the tournament is when Juolevi shot up to #6 in the rankings. 
 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/juniors/sportsnets-top-30-2016-nhl-draft-prospects-december/

 

In any event the BPA at #5 was Tkachuk and that is the player that Benning should have picked. He went off the board and took the next guy in line because he was a defenceman. Big mistake which has cost us dearly. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Elias Pettersson

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[IBatch]

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Sorry, but prior to the world junior’s that year Tkachuk was ranked #2 and Juolevi was #16.  They were not even close prior to the tournament. After the tournament is when Juolevi shot up to #6 in the rankings. 
 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/juniors/sportsnets-top-30-2016-nhl-draft-prospects-december/

 

In any event the BPA at #5 was Tkachuk and that is the player that Benning should have picked. He went off the board and took the next guy in line because he was a defenceman. Big mistake which has cost us dearly. 

And after MT scored a goal per game in the playoffs ... his stock was higher then ever.   OJ wasn't even in everyone's first round before the Juniors.  International Scouting Services - the most legitimate ranking system in the world for decades, had him moving up to 11. SN and TSN also have multiple writers so you need to check and see whom has whom where - same a THN.   Button and Mckenzie's list hold the most weight - SN is a bit of a joke really given who on their staff is actually even a scout or has been one.   Just throwing darts on the board.    Button at least has credentials but he's not a scout anymore either.  He's a sports personality.  

Edited April 1, 2022 by IBatch

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

And after MT scored a goal per game in the playoffs ... his stock was higher then ever. 

There is not one poster who had Benning picking Juolevi at #6. Not one. Someone should pull up that thread just to see the reactions from everyone when Juolevi was selected. Tkachuk was the consensus pick for the Canucks at #5 when it was their turn to pick. 

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

There is not one poster who had Benning picking Juolevi at #6. Not one. Someone should pull up that thread just to see the reactions from everyone when Juolevi was selected. Tkachuk was the consensus pick for the Canucks at #5 when it was their turn to pick. 

Yes.   It's the only time i ever threw a remote watching the draft.  Was sad when PLD was picked at 3.   Really thought he was our guy the way Benning had been telling everyone leading up to the draft it was him publicly.   Then shocked when MT was still there (he was going 2-3...wasn't he?).   Was by far his worst pick.   And he was in no way a consensus #6, that's revisionist history that's absolutely BS. 

 

Edit:  That said i was willing to give the pick  the benefit of the doubt - there was a lot of doubt.   Also had it with QHs and EP so don't think i'm a draft guru...but both those picks made a lot more sense.   I did not think OJ was the right D.   Chychrun made the most sense given his pedigree a year before was maybe number one over Mathews. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by IBatch

[Hairy Kneel]

11 hours ago, iinatcc said:

Well Myers, Garland (considering he doesn't seem to be a fit with the Coaching Staff), Boeser (if he doesn't agree to a team friendly deal) etc.

 

It's a big mess that Rutherford and Alvin have to fix. I honestly can't see this being resolved even by next season. 

If I had to flush a contract I would try Bess before OEL. We might get lucky on a LTIR maybe. 

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, Muttley said:

Interlude for refection and vehicle sales and past Canucks and because it popped up on YouTube when I was looking for something; 

 

The Sather 'pump & dump' started with BJ. I think he got 50 goals playing wing for Gretzky. Can't remember who Van gave up to get him. Forgot he was on the '82 team. 

[Harold Drunken]

30 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Sorry, but prior to the world junior’s that year Tkachuk was ranked #2 and Juolevi was #16.  They were not even close prior to the tournament. After the tournament is when Juolevi shot up to #6 in the rankings. 
 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/juniors/sportsnets-top-30-2016-nhl-draft-prospects-december/

 

In any event the BPA at #5 was Tkachuk and that is the player that Benning should have picked. He went off the board and took the next guy in line because he was a defenceman. Big mistake which has cost us dearly. 

holy hell you guys. I don't care what the rankings were In January that year that's irrelevant what were the FINAL rankings. You guys are chasing ghosts with this argument lol its insane we live in a world where you can put forward list after list after list proving your point with evidence and people will still try and argue. Look at all those final draft ranking I posted my god the evidence is right in front of you.

[iinatcc]

25 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes.   It's the only time i ever threw a remote watching the draft.  Was sad when PLD was picked at 3.   Really thought he was our guy the way Benning had been telling everyone leading up to the draft it was him publicly.   Then shocked when MT was still there (he was going 2-3...wasn't he?).   Was by far his worst pick.   And he was in no way a consensus #6, that's revisionist history that's absolutely BS. 

 

Edit:  That said i was willing to give the pick  the benefit of the doubt - there was a lot of doubt.   Also had it with QHs and EP so don't think i'm a draft guru...but both those picks made a lot more sense.   I did not think OJ was the right D.   Chychrun made the most sense given his pedigree a year before was maybe number one over Mathews. 

Probably for the best. If I recall there were reports of Benning trading the 1st round pick to Montreal if PLD was still available