[discussion] trading 2022 1st round pick

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, iinatcc said:

Retooling is fine, but retooling doesn't mean taking short cuts. Teams have retooled successfully in recent years.

St. Louis basically retooled when they won their Cup, so did the Caps, the Bruins, and Penguins. 

WSH was on their second core when Ovi finally won a cup.   They were an excellent team with Mike Green (who - well go back and look what he did), Semin et al too.    Didn't win until he was in his early 30's.    That's IMO - exactly what we are faced with right now IF we draft incredibly well and have a few lopsided trades that go in our favour.    Vancouver was always going to suck - just like Detroit has - and unless Wilson can pull some rabbits out of his hat (doubtful) he's going to have to endure or probably the next guy up with SJ.   As a fan if you take the macro view - JB did an average job.   Put us right into the mushy middle - which is average.   What he didn't do, was allow the team to bottom out properly.   I fear that's likely what we need.    Teams got some serious issues at the moment.   EP isn't Ovi (yet) Brock isn't Brett Hull - not even close - all we really ended up with was a good goalie and a Reinhart that we control for another five years.    Not enough i'm afraid.    Could be wrong and hope i am, but feel that as far as contention goes it's only going to happen with who's coming up behind us still ... some 11-14 year old kids. 

[JM_]

7 hours ago, mll said:

Teams are likely more willing to move their 2022 pick especially if later in the 1st.  

 

Seravalli writes: 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/seravalli-nhl-teams-are-asking-for-2023-draft-picks-over-2022/

"I think there’s a general feeling that the first round in 2022 isn’t especially exceptional outside of the lottery range. There has been a perception for some time that the top of the 2023 Draft is much more plentiful than the top of 2022 in terms of true difference makers."

 

I saw that too, thats why I'd want a 2023 to move Brock, e.g. A late 2022 could end up being very risky. 

[JM_]

10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

WSH was on their second core when Ovi finally won a cup.   They were an excellent team with Mike Green (who - well go back and look what he did), Semin et al too.    Didn't win until he was in his early 30's.    That's IMO - exactly what we are faced with right now IF we draft incredibly well and have a few lopsided trades that go in our favour.    Vancouver was always going to suck - just like Detroit has - and unless Wilson can pull some rabbits out of his hat (doubtful) he's going to have to endure or probably the next guy up with SJ.   As a fan if you take the macro view - JB did an average job.   Put us right into the mushy middle - which is average.   What he didn't do, was allow the team to bottom out properly.   I fear that's likely what we need.    Teams got some serious issues at the moment.   EP isn't Ovi (yet) Brock isn't Brett Hull - not even close - all we really ended up with was a good goalie and a Reinhart that we control for another five years.    Not enough i'm afraid.    Could be wrong and hope i am, but feel that as far as contention goes it's only going to happen with who's coming up behind us still ... some 11-14 year old kids. 

I do think you might be a bit... really I'm basing that on when this core is firing on all cylinders they are a tough out. But when your support pieces are guys like Petan you're not going very far. 

[Drakrami]

3 hours ago, iinatcc said:

Retooling is fine, but retooling doesn't mean taking short cuts. Teams have retooled successfully in recent years.

St. Louis basically retooled when they won their Cup, so did the Caps, the Bruins, and Penguins. 

Retooling is not fine. Doesn't work, lying to yourself and a waste of time. The teams you have mentioned all were cup winners. If you retool with a cup winner core, sure anyone can accept that. It's actually more like cap management for those teams since they have to shed the roster after their cup wins because their UFAs will want to sign for more. 

 

Why talk about other teams? We have plenty of history with retooling here in Vancouver. 23 year old Linden Vey is on the market!? Let's part with our 2nd. 20 year old Pedan? Here take our 3rd. Omg a young Gudbranson! 

 

You get the idea. The inability to learn from past mistake and history and still advocating for it... /facepalm. 

[Boknows08]

1 hour ago, smithers joe said:

i would trade it for schneider. imo, schneider would fix our defense. others might too, but only he is worth a first pick.

This. Only way I'm trading the 1st is if it's for a stud rhd prospect/player u23 ish which most teams will not do. Unless it's a team like LA who have a ton of rhd prospects and they really like someone at the draft. Don't get me wrong, I would be trading Miller/Boeser/Garland before trading the 1st to make this happen.

No to trading up. We don't have the organizational depth to do so. If there is no one we like where picking, trade back a bit and grab more picks. 

[Alflives]

32 minutes ago, Drakrami said:

Retooling is not fine. Doesn't work, lying to yourself and a waste of time. The teams you have mentioned all were cup winners. If you retool with a cup winner core, sure anyone can accept that. It's actually more like cap management for those teams since they have to shed the roster after their cup wins because their UFAs will want to sign for more. 

 

Why talk about other teams? We have plenty of history with retooling here in Vancouver. 23 year old Linden Vey is on the market!? Let's part with our 2nd. 20 year old Pedan? Here take our 3rd. Omg a young Gudbranson! 

 

You get the idea. The inability to learn from past mistake and history and still advocating for it... /facepalm. 

This exactly.  We need to rebuild.  Benning built a monster following the dr. Frankenstein method.  It’s a bunch of pieces stitched together with hopes it will make a beautiful whole.  Well, we’ve seen the result.  It needs to be completely dismantled and started over if we have any hope for a better future.

Thats not going to happen though.  Our owner can’t afford that, so it’s a retool, and very likely a shallow one.  

We will keep Budreau for the coming season, and extend him one more.

We will extend Miller.

We will move out none core pieces and bring in other non core pieces.  Shallow retooling moves.

We will fight for a playoff spot for the next two seasons.  The owner will Tweet happy thoughts after games we win.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

This exactly.  We need to rebuild.  Benning built a monster following the dr. Frankenstein method.  It’s a bunch of pieces stitched together with hopes it will make a beautiful whole.  Well, we’ve seen the result.  It needs to be completely dismantled and started over if we have any hope for a better future.

Thats not going to happen though.  Our owner can’t afford that, so it’s a retool, and very likely a shallow one.  

We will keep Budreau for the coming season, and extend him one more.

We will extend Miller.

We will move out none core pieces and bring in other non core pieces.  Shallow retooling moves.

We will fight for a playoff spot for the next two seasons.  The owner will Tweet happy thoughts after games we win.

And Alf will make sure he runs into their shins in his scooter IF he sees them around town.    Personally if it was Frankenstein's monster - i'm not sure what we don't have more toughness.   More like Igor....

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, JM_ said:

I do think you might be a bit... really I'm basing that on when this core is firing on all cylinders they are a tough out. But when your support pieces are guys like Petan you're not going very far. 

I really feel that we don't have enough player's that can take our team to the next level yet.     Feel our best choice of action is to hope for a St. louis or Vegas type team.    Miller ... doubt he will have another season like he's had.   Maybe one, two at most, best case.   We have some very good pieces.   But we don't have anyone in the pipe to push these guys into the next level.   Wouldn't at all be apposed to a deliberate two year tank.   Also get the risk in doing that.   Horvat.   Maybe even EP.   But we do have a two year "window" that could be used to propel us to the next level.   

 

Brass has a big decision to make.  Not an easy one.   The highest chance of us becoming a top team requires either some amazing trades and luck - or a more methodical take on team building.    I'm hoping that they can make it work.  Quin did.   But traded a heck of a lot of fan favourites and established guys to get there.   Plus has brilliant luck with Bure.   Sure would love a second for a Lumme about right now.    Or a Butcher (Miller?) like trade with a proven hard nosed blue chip vet.    Team is going to be spinning it's tires if they can't do that.   Sure maybe Bruce gets us to the playoffs next year and we win the cup.   Let's go with that. 

[Nucker 67]

Not sure what they could be thinking or planning. I'm glad management has had several months to assess the team and haven't pulled the trigger on a big trade. They're taking their time, instead of doing something just for the sake of putting their stamp on it. As for Miller, I think he'll either be traded or re-signed this off season. I'm not sure they're going to want any major contract distractions mid-season. Maybe the same with Horvat?

 

I don't believe they'll trade the 1st, because they want to build up the prospect pool and have good young players coming up the ranks. They might even try to get another 1st.

[N4ZZY]

20 hours ago, Fanuck said:

If we are to believe Rutherford, he's not interested in trading away high picks - he wants to use them to build the future of this club.  Things change and now Allvin is in the picture, but in the article (below) he specifically mentions not trading away high picks. 

 

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/canucks-jim-rutherford-ready-to-get-aggressive

 

“How we’ll look at this in the future is we won’t trade high picks. Anytime we’re making a deal it’s for younger players and we’ll try to bring this team, really make it stronger over the next couple of years, to where it can start to be a regular playoff team.”

 

Well, if it’s not for high picks, then that only means that players on the current roster are going to be shipped out. 

 

[IBatch]

12 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Not sure what they could be thinking or planning. I'm glad management has had several months to assess the team and haven't pulled the trigger on a big trade. They're taking their time, instead of doing something just for the sake of putting their stamp on it. As for Miller, I think he'll either be traded or re-signed this off season. I'm not sure they're going to want any major contract distractions mid-season. Maybe the same with Horvat?

 

I don't believe they'll trade the 1st, because they want to build up the prospect pool and have good young players coming up the ranks. They might even try to get another 1st.

I also like that they didn't make a knee jerk reaction.   How the team does the rest of the season also matters because it shows it's character.   If no deliberate tank moves occur like filling the roster with AHLers, which i totally doubt will happen - will the team keep trying once they are out?   Or will they keep pushing.  Hope it's the latter. 

[N4ZZY]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

This exactly.  We need to rebuild.  Benning built a monster following the dr. Frankenstein method.  It’s a bunch of pieces stitched together with hopes it will make a beautiful whole.  Well, we’ve seen the result.  It needs to be completely dismantled and started over if we have any hope for a better future.

Thats not going to happen though.  Our owner can’t afford that, so it’s a retool, and very likely a shallow one.  

We will keep Budreau for the coming season, and extend him one more.

We will extend Miller.

We will move out none core pieces and bring in other non core pieces.  Shallow retooling moves.

We will fight for a playoff spot for the next two seasons.  The owner will Tweet happy thoughts after games we win.

I just wish he never tweets again. He’s so awkward in the way he says things on social media. Cringe worthy. 

 

I don’t know if I fully agree, Alf about shallow retooling. JR would not have come here if he didn’t have autonomy. So I suspect that if it’s a retool, it’s JR’s idea, not Aquilini. But we’ll see, I suppose. JR didn’t have to take the job, in fact, if Aquilini meddles, he can step away and step aside. He did it in Pitts, he has nothing to lose, really. Francesco has more to lose than Rutherford does. 

 

And I think the narrative about this city and her fans not being able to stomach a full rebuild is bull$&!#. We endured a half assed job by the previous regime for almost a decade. We essentially went through a rebuild because of their mismanagement, and we’re still &^@#ing cheering for this team. 

[N4ZZY]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I also like that they didn't make a knee jerk reaction.   How the team does the rest of the season also matters because it shows it's character.   If no deliberate tank moves occur like filling the roster with AHLers, which i totally doubt will happen - will the team keep trying once they are out?   Or will they keep pushing.  Hope it's the latter. 

We’ll see soon enough won’t we? Can’t wait for tomorrow’s game against Vegas, because it will show how urgent they are, whether they have fight in them, even though their chances of making the postseason is extremely extremely low. 

 

[Nucker 67]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I also like that they didn't make a knee jerk reaction.   How the team does the rest of the season also matters because it shows it's character.   If no deliberate tank moves occur like filling the roster with AHLers, which i totally doubt will happen - will the team keep trying once they are out?   Or will they keep pushing.  Hope it's the latter. 

I agree, another GM might've traded 1st and 2nd round picks for the wrong players with bad contracts,  just to give ownership the illusion that playoffs are possible. I'm really looking forward to the off season, it'll be busy and I think the Canucks will have a much better, more exciting team in 2022/23. 

[N4ZZY]

19 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

I agree, another GM might've traded 1st and 2nd round picks for the wrong players with bad contracts,  just to give ownership the illusion that playoffs are possible. I'm really looking forward to the off season, it'll be busy and I think the Canucks will have a much better, more exciting team in 2022/23. 

I’m not certain about a more exciting team. I hope so! But I do agree with you that this off-season will be a very busy one with management. I expect a lot of chatter, and movement as well. 

 

[JM_]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

I really feel that we don't have enough player's that can take our team to the next level yet.     Feel our best choice of action is to hope for a St. louis or Vegas type team.    Miller ... doubt he will have another season like he's had.   Maybe one, two at most, best case.   We have some very good pieces.   But we don't have anyone in the pipe to push these guys into the next level.   Wouldn't at all be apposed to a deliberate two year tank.   Also get the risk in doing that.   Horvat.   Maybe even EP.   But we do have a two year "window" that could be used to propel us to the next level.   

 

Brass has a big decision to make.  Not an easy one.   The highest chance of us becoming a top team requires either some amazing trades and luck - or a more methodical take on team building.    I'm hoping that they can make it work.  Quin did.   But traded a heck of a lot of fan favourites and established guys to get there.   Plus has brilliant luck with Bure.   Sure would love a second for a Lumme about right now.    Or a Butcher (Miller?) like trade with a proven hard nosed blue chip vet.    Team is going to be spinning it's tires if they can't do that.   Sure maybe Bruce gets us to the playoffs next year and we win the cup.   Let's go with that. 

moving forward, I think Miller is realistically a 70 pt +/- 5 point guy who brings a lot of fire. Is that worth 9.5? not in a bubble on its own. So much depends on what we surround our current core guys with tho.

 

Lumme 2.0 would be nice 

[IBatch]

55 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

I just wish he never tweets again. He’s so awkward in the way he says things on social media. Cringe worthy. 

 

I don’t know if I fully agree, Alf about shallow retooling. JR would not have come here if he didn’t have autonomy. So I suspect that if it’s a retool, it’s JR’s idea, not Aquilini. But we’ll see, I suppose. JR didn’t have to take the job, in fact, if Aquilini meddles, he can step away and step aside. He did it in Pitts, he has nothing to lose, really. Francesco has more to lose than Rutherford does. 

 

And I think the narrative about this city and her fans not being able to stomach a full rebuild is bull$&!#. We endured a half assed job by the previous regime for almost a decade. We essentially went through a rebuild because of their mismanagement, and we’re still &^@#ing cheering for this team. 

I have zero issues with the owners tweeting and showing their support for the team after a win.   Not sure why we should.   We have an owner that paid to the cap - sure it was a mistake, but he surely didn't have too.   To me that's on JB and his choices.     The owners can do anything they want it's their team they actually own it.    Nobody was complaining when he saved the team from a Seattle billionaire...sure some complained before and rightly so - he branded our team.    Don't get this distaste and dislike for the owners.    Look at what just occurred.   Ballooned our front office to give us the best chance.   Nobody was complaining during the peak Sedin era too.   To me the correct target is expansion.   The NHL diluted its product throughout the 2000's and 2010's and it's finally caught up (the talent level).  

 

Edit:  Take a look at how Ballard treated his fans and his players.   Driving naked around on his rink with blonde naked bimbos on his lap in the middle of the night.   Backstabbed his players all the time.   Acted with no level of appreciation for what his players did for him.    Or what LA did to Bernie Nichols.   We have good owners.   We should be appreciative not d!cks about it.   I'm sure for sorry for fans that only started around the WCE era because - well they were spoiled with the teams we had, and also, quite literally part of that generation that got everything they wanted including participation ribbons.    Fans that have been around since the start - those guys need to be rewarded for their suffrage, and also know what it's like to have a bad decade or two.  

Edited April 2, 2022 by IBatch

[J.I.A.H.N]

No to moving out a 1st or even a 2nd.....................

 

We need to move a couple of Forwards....................Boeser and Miller.................they represent solid returns and 2 of our last 1st's we traded..................

 

Boeser to LA for Grans and a 2022 - 1st (20th OA) ish

 

Miller to Columbus for Chicago's 2022-1st  (7th OA)and Ceulemans

 

We need to suck it up and really concentrate on a proper rebuild.......................

 

2022 - 2023 .....................no lofty expectations................just relax

 

Sign Domi as a UFA........................

 

Net loss.............Miller

 

Net Gain............2022-1st (7th OA) + 2022 - 1st (120h OA) + Ceulmans (2021-1st 25th OA) + Grans (2020-2nd 35th OA)

 

------------------------------------------------

 

We go into the 2022 draft with...........

 

2022-1st (8th OA)

2022-1st (14th OA)

2022-1st (20th OA)

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N

[nergish]

1 hour ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

No to moving out a 1st or even a 2nd.....................

 

We need to move a couple of Forwards....................Boeser and Miller.................they represent solid returns and 2 of our last 1st's we traded..................

 

Boeser to LA for Grans and a 2022 - 1st (20th OA) ish

 

Miller to Columbus for Chicago's 2022-1st  (7th OA)and Ceulemans

 

We need to suck it up and really concentrate on a proper rebuild.......................

 

2022 - 2023 .....................no lofty expectations................just relax

 

Sign Domi as a UFA........................

 

Net loss.............Miller

 

Net Gain............2022-1st (7th OA) + 2022 - 1st (120h OA) + Ceulmans (2021-1st 25th OA)

 

------------------------------------------------

 

We go into the 2022 draft with...........

 

2022-1st (8th OA)

2022-1st (14th OA)

2022-1st (20th OA)

Trade for Grans and Ceulemens, and potentially draft Nemec or Jiricek...

Hello right side defence!!!!

 

Or put together a package with those picks to move up and get Shane Wright...

Edited April 2, 2022 by nergish

[DownUndaCanuck]

I don't think many teams survive trading that many 1sts. That being said Allvin's drafting history isn't great so if there's a trade for a top young defenceman prospect I'd consider it...