billabong Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 (edited) how much value does a player like Seth Jones garner anymore? is it simply a cap dump? To Van: Jones To Chi: Myers, Pearson, Dickinson, poolman, ferland jones has 8 years left at 9.5m per pearson 3.25m/2 yrs myers 6m/2 yrs dickinson 2.65m/2 yrs poolman 2.5m/3 yrs (career in jeopardy) ferland 3.5m/1 year (LTIR) money in, money out. OEL-Jones Hughes-Schenn Dermott-Burroughs Rathbone obviously subsequent moves would have to made to fill out the roster DISCLAIMER: its just food for thought not advocating for anything Edited July 30, 2022 by billabong 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doughtys Tooth Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 Seth Jones is still a quality player. Doubt they dump him for our junk. If we can get Chicago to retain like 2 mil of Jones and make him a 7 mil d man, obviously they'd have to take some salary back but I wouldn't be opposed to sending them Poolman (salary)+Dickinson (salary) and the assets we give them would be like Hoglander, 2x unprotected 1sts, Rathbone but im not sure that'd be enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilya Mikheyev Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 Chicago is building for the future, so they would have absolutely no motivation to take on all the worst Canucks' worst contracts. Seth Jones is also severely overpaid, and would handcuff the Canucks for years to come rather than these shorter term over payments (besides Pearson who is paid fairly), so it doesn't make sense for the Canucks to chase him either. In the end, I think both teams would say no. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighOnHockey Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 1 hour ago, billabong said: how much value does a player like Seth Jones garner anymore? is it simply a cap dump? To Van: Jones To Chi: Myers, Pearson, Dickinson, poolman, ferland money in, money out. OEL-Jones Hughes-Schenn Dermott-Burroughs Rathbone obviously subsequent moves would have to made to fill out the roster DISCLAIMER: its just food for thought not advocating for anything How the heck do you come up with this? Isn't Seth Jones one of the best defensemen in the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilya Mikheyev Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 1 minute ago, HighOnHockey said: How the heck do you come up with this? Isn't Seth Jones one of the best defensemen in the world? No but next year he's going to be a 5 million dollar D being paid 9.5m. So, I guess he's one of the most overpaid defensemen in the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 I'd be surprised if Chicago viewed him the way Arizona viewed OEL. He's still someone that they got for Boqvist and several early picks (with 1st and 6th going back), and he's a 50 point, 26 minutes per night RHD, even on a bad team. If they sold and we tried to buy with retention I really don't see them taking back junk (e.g. Myers, DiPietro, Rathbone + 1st; they only have 4 D signed right now, and Myers replaces some of his minutes; Rathbone probably gets a crack at making the roster, and they'd want futures and another project they can groom while Mrazek takes the NHL minutes behind this defense [wonder if we'd offer Martin]). Honestly though, if we were trading for a RD I would rather go for Jake McCabe (listed as playing both sides and a solid defensive D-man who makes around $4 million). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighOnHockey Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Ilya Mikheyev said: No but next year he's going to be a 5 million dollar D being paid 9.5m. So, I guess he's one of the most overpaid defensemen in the world? How do you figure that? Maybe I'm missing something but by all metrics and appearances, he's gotta be at least top 15 defensemen in the league. I won't bore you with the analytics, but he has finishes of 4th, 9th and 14th in Norris voting in the last 5 years. Still just 28 coming into the season. Currently he's the 5th highest-paid defenseman in the league, but consdiering his age and comparable recent signings (Pietrangelo, Hamilton, Nurse), he's over-paid by at most 500-750k. They won't have to retain and and they will get a substantial return for Jones. Edited July 30, 2022 by HighOnHockey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 I maintain that he's a pretty underrated defenseman, but regardless, he's not worth $9.5M, so his value is probably negative to almost every team, despite his value as a player alone (outside of salary cap implications). If he were to be traded at full cap hit, he would be negative value. It's possible that the Hawks just add a bunch of assets to fully lose his contract, but it would be more likely that they retain a couple million or so, making his value closer to fair. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcam Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 2 hours ago, billabong said: how much value does a player like Seth Jones garner anymore? is it simply a cap dump? To Van: Jones To Chi: Myers, Pearson, Dickinson, poolman, ferland jones has 8 years left at 9.5m per pearson 3.25m/2 yrs myers 6m/2 yrs dickinson 2.65m/2 yrs poolman 2.5m/3 yrs (career in jeopardy) ferland 3.5m/1 year (LTIR) money in, money out. OEL-Jones Hughes-Schenn Dermott-Burroughs Rathbone obviously subsequent moves would have to made to fill out the roster DISCLAIMER: its just food for thought not advocating for anything Chicago would never make this deal..They can make better deals and get young prospect and draft pick helping teams that are against cap..Canucks will not take on more bad cap..Myers will have takers 2 yrs X 6 million RD plays 21--24 mins #3 D man.. Vancouver cannot trade him without having someone to replace those valuable minutes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilya Mikheyev Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, HighOnHockey said: How do you figure that? Maybe I'm missing something but by all metrics and appearances, he's gotta be at least top 15 defensemen in the league. I won't bore you with the analytics, but he has finishes of 4th, 9th and 14th in Norris voting in the last 5 years. Still just 28 coming into the season. Currently he's the 5th highest-paid defenseman in the league, but consdiering his age and comparable recent signings (Pietrangelo, Hamilton, Nurse), he's over-paid by at most 500-750k. They won't have to retain and and they will get a substantial return for Jones. I can't tell if you're joking or not? Would love to see an analytic argument FOR Seth Jones being paid 9.5M and not 5M. From last year, a much better year for him when he was utilized basically only for ozone deployment: Quote He allowed a 65% carry-in against (18th percentile) and those resulted in a chance against at a rate of 4.94 per 60 (7th percentile). Again, the Blackhawks were “skating backwards” in terms of blue line defense, meaning they allowed a lot of zone entries against and those more often than not resulted in a scoring chance against. Jones has been pretty good in this area in the past, so it can be chalked up as more of a team-wide issue than one specific to Jones. He was better at forcing opponents to dump the puck in (86th percentile) and at retrieving the puck with no scoring chances against (74th percentile). As @King Heffy would say, the dude can't play defense. He's elite offensively, but is that worth 9.5 million? I would say closer to 5M especially as he was never a UFA, maybe 6M on an completely open market this year when teams are desperate for a RHD. Edited July 30, 2022 by Ilya Mikheyev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 we might be able to do a AZ style cap dump, in fact we'd have to. But we'd also certainly be adding next years 1st, and someone under 23 we don't want to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasCanuck Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 13 hours ago, billabong said: how much value does a player like Seth Jones garner anymore? is it simply a cap dump? To Van: Jones To Chi: Myers, Pearson, Dickinson, poolman, ferland jones has 8 years left at 9.5m per pearson 3.25m/2 yrs myers 6m/2 yrs dickinson 2.65m/2 yrs poolman 2.5m/3 yrs (career in jeopardy) ferland 3.5m/1 year (LTIR) money in, money out. OEL-Jones Hughes-Schenn Dermott-Burroughs Rathbone obviously subsequent moves would have to made to fill out the roster DISCLAIMER: its just food for thought not advocating for anything Chicago is committed to rebuilding, quantity of players does nothing for them although, they would recognize that we would need to balance cap space. I don’t recommend at any level that we go after him, but if you want to, with the package you offered, you are including at the minimum, our 2023, 1st round pick and our 2024 2nd round to start the discussion. Chicago would likely insist that we give them our 2024 1st round pick instead of a second. So, ask yourself, is Jones worth that to us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighOnHockey Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 3 hours ago, Ilya Mikheyev said: I can't tell if you're joking or not? Would love to see an analytic argument FOR Seth Jones being paid 9.5M and not 5M. From last year, a much better year for him when he was utilized basically only for ozone deployment: As @King Heffy would say, the dude can't play defense. He's elite offensively, but is that worth 9.5 million? I would say closer to 5M especially as he was never a UFA, maybe 6M on an completely open market this year when teams are desperate for a RHD. I am definitely not joking. Even your Evolving Hockey says an 8 year contract for him projects to 8.1 million. Their data looks pretty bland to me but to each his own. I said he's at most 750k overpaid, they say 1.4, so we're basically splitting the difference. Also I'd be curious to know when 56% came to mean "basically only". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorvatToBaertschi Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 the cap hit is absolutely ridiculous but he would be an excellent addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 I am going with hard no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devron Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 16 hours ago, Ilya Mikheyev said: I can't tell if you're joking or not? Would love to see an analytic argument FOR Seth Jones being paid 9.5M and not 5M. From last year, a much better year for him when he was utilized basically only for ozone deployment: As @King Heffy would say, the dude can't play defense. He's elite offensively, but is that worth 9.5 million? I would say closer to 5M especially as he was never a UFA, maybe 6M on an completely open market this year when teams are desperate for a RHD. What were his analytics on Columbus? Chicago is a dumpster fire so usually all players suffer because one man can’t do it himself. Just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilya Mikheyev Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 8 hours ago, Devron said: What were his analytics on Columbus? Chicago is a dumpster fire so usually all players suffer because one man can’t do it himself. Just curious His last two years in Columbus were horrendous defensively. This player card is weighted based on his last three years there: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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