[PGT] New Jersey Devils at Vancouver Canucks | Nov. 01, 2022

[DrJockitch]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

you rely on picks and development and that's a 15 year rebuild, if things go well.

We are at 10 with no end in sight other than mediocrity.

[spook007]

11 minutes ago, Devron said:

Oh I already have. I’ve posted many times after this post when people argue my point. He’s gone. It’s just the wrong move. Nothing we can do about it now after re-signing Miller. It was supposed to be the other way around if we were choosing both.

 

I was excited about the Miller signing initially. I was waiting for the next move. We did nothing. There was no plan in place. It’s brutal

Cheers Devron...

 

Working my way through all the posts ( get a freaking life...I know  )...

 

Agree 100%. I was sitting right next to you on the fence, and I also feel a bit of, what now?

[Smashian Kassian]

4 minutes ago, AV. said:

1.  I think you're assuming that I'm advocating to trade Pettersson, Hughes, etc.  I'm not.  A teardown might lead to them being traded if they decide they don't want to be around, but that's not what I'm inherently suggesting.  I'm talking about cutting ties with those generally above 25 - Garland, Boeser, Horvat, Miller, Demko (although, I'm fine if he stays), etc

2.  A window is opened up when there is financial flexibility to improve or sustain a period of success.  Canucks were not a good team before OEL, didn't improve after getting him.  Canucks did improve with Miller, but regressed shortly after when they lost key players to free-agency after the bubble playoffs.  Re-signing Miller has effectively ensured actual improvements can't be made, since more cap-space has been allocated to him.  Ergo, window closed unless major surgery is made to somehow swap major players out for other major players.

3.  I have.  Multiple times, including in this thread.  In any event, it's a poor, poor example to compare the Canucks to.

4.  They supplemented with key free-agents, not trading assets and picks to accelerate things.  It costed them nothing but money.  The other key notion here is that they made these moves AFTER Hughes/Hischier had been signed long-term.  Canucks tried to accelerate whilst players were on ELCs.  And my point does make sense because I'm not talking about core players on ELCs.  Rather, I'm talking about drafted players coming into the lineup and taking up these spots that are taken by the semi-high earners in the Pearsons and Poolmans of the world.  Something like how what Erik Cernak or Ross Colton were with Tampa Bay.

 

1. If your trading Demko & Horvat it makes no sense to hang onto Hughes given he's a UFA at the end of his deal (4 more years). And if your not trading all of them it's not a rebuild. (Besides possibly EP b/c theirs still a possibility of an 8 yr deal) 

 

Simply; if your holding onto Pettersson, Hughes & Demko, it's a re-tool not a rebuild.

 

2. Wrong. They have 12M in capspace going into next year + Myers/Pearson/Garland/Boeser who represent 20M of movable $$$, & then 40M the following season. 

 

3. You didn't get my point. STL never tore it down, they continued to build their team & retool the mix around their core year over year over year until it came together. Like your arguing against here. 

 

4. Fair point about signing them, but it's still big contracts allocated to older support players. 

 

The Canucks badly managed their cap for years & then ran into the pandemic which crushed them for it. Regardless Hughes signed long term & they could still compete in the future with Petey at 9-10M.

 

And they do have some ELC guys though, Hoglander/Podkolzin/Rathbone are on the roster now they just haven't been impact players. 

[Dr. Crossbar]

2 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

if thats the case, then it's true they are mentally weak. Thats reason enough to break up the band.

Well, Bruce did say that about being mentally weak.

 

If they're still losing like this in Nov and December, no improvement, we'll know if the team really is this bad. 

 

My guess is that they need more time to come together, 10-25 games, to get mentally strong, which may be too late. 

[EmilyM]

2 minutes ago, vancan2233 said:

In a salary cap world it happens all the time. If a team has players that they tried to trade during the seanon and did not like what was offer, and those players need new contracts they sign them to retain assets. They can then try again to get the trade they want or if needed move on from those players for the better of the team future.  

I can see that argument for Boeser, I'll give you that, but they flinched too early on the Miller re-signing. He would've been monumentally easier to move in-season without the extension.

[Devron]

2 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Cheers Devron...

 

Working my way through all the posts ( get a freaking life...I know  )...

 

Agree 100%. I was sitting right next to you on the fence, and I also feel a bit of, what now?

I’m just going to cheer on the boys like I normally do. I just feel like this is getting all screwed up. Nothing we can do but hope for them to get back on track. I know that a top 3 pick probably won’t happen either so just hope for wins. Management is gonna go all whacky with whatever direction they take anyway. Not much we can do about it. 

[stawns]

28 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

But Jersey has been picking at the top of the draft and has a lot more in the prospect pipeline than us. We tried to skirt around the hard part and have traded away pic after pic after pic to try to make up for the lack of a prospect pipeline. This is nonsensical. 

Yet from the draft they have

 

Horvat

Petey

Hughes

Hogz

Podz

Demjo

Boeser

Rathbone

 

Is it really that bad? 

[DeNiro]

15 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

you paying anyone's salary here? I mean it's possible.

Don’t care just usually there’s updates on here.

 

If they didn’t practice though I’m pretty shocked after a performance like that.

[Warhippy]

7 minutes ago, stawns said:

you rely on picks and development and that's a 15 year rebuild, if things go well.

the last ten years.  again.

 

which position would you rather be in?  10 years of records, all but 1 team trending upwards with depth, youth and cap space and then, the canucks. 

[vancan2233]

16 minutes ago, EmilyM said:

I can see that argument for Boeser, I'll give you that, but they flinched too early on the Miller re-signing. He would've been monumentally easier to move in-season without the extension.

True, never whated Miller re-signed. The money saved could have be used down the road, but you lose a huge asset. Even now his contract is tradable to a team looking to add for the playoffs. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by vancan2233

[spook007]

1 minute ago, Devron said:

I’m just going to cheer on the boys like I normally do. I just feel like this is getting all screwed up. Nothing we can do but hope for them to get back on track. I know that a top 3 pick probably won’t happen either so just hope for wins. Management is gonna go all whacky with whatever direction they take anyway. Not much we can do about it. 

Been saying the same since game 4 or 5 of the season..

I will never stop cheering them on, but I think its becoming evident, that they just don't have it in them...

 

And as you rightly say, sit back and enjoy the ride... wherever it may lead...

[Nucker 67]

8 minutes ago, Rackdawg said:

Imo this team is yrs away from being a contender for a cup..rebuilding the defence is top priority..this shuffling players around..trading for plug stop gaps has to stop!..start the rebuild.trade who ever..because if this keeps up it will be the same old same old 5 yrs from now..

Yeah, I've got a bad feeling that this will go on for a while. There's just so much mess to unravel, some bad contracts and underperforming players. 

 

Meanwhile, star players like Petey, Hughes and Demko may eventually want to explore other places to play if things continue for years to come. They want to win a Cup like every other player, but the Canucks just keep spinning their wheels, unable to even make the playoffs. 

 

Blow it up real good

 

[EmilyM]

1 minute ago, vancan2233 said:

True, never whated Miller resigned. The money saved could have be used down the road, but you lose a huge asset. Even now his contract is tradable to a team looking to add for the playoffs. 

Yeah, I don't think he's untradeable with the extension, but we're going to have to find a contender that needs him this year and also has the desire to build around him for the next 7 years. The pool of teams that could take that on would be a pretty exclusive club.

[Smashian Kassian]

9 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

We are bad this year, playoffs are very very unlikely and at this point chasing top 5 pics is more realistic and beneficial. 
At the deadline I put all of the group of JTM, Brock, Pearson, OEL, Myers, Stillman, Garland and Dermott up for auction and use retention as incentive. 
Not going to move all but some may be possible. I only take prospects and pics and short term cap dumps to facilitate returns.
‘This gives a young core that has lost nothing, salary cap flexibility and starts to fix some of our biggest issues with the club, lack of pipeline and missing high end prospects at right D and Centre. Then again we may be picking high in the draft and go after another small winger, we are after all the Canucks. 
‘If we can make a good deal or two this will complement our core and we can start building around it properly. If we have a core group anchored by Pettey and Quinn we need to start adding size that can move. You can have small players but need to surround them with big ones who can move and go to the net.  

 

I agree with everything you've said here.

 

And I'd consider this the "retool" route, which could very well be what management means aswell when they talk.

 

They need to add more good players to the defense, and start getting stronger/faster up front.

 

Mikeyhev & Bear look like decent steps in that direction as middle of the line-up players, but more needs to be done & hopefully we'll have more flexibility to do so this year with the cap going up.

 

[DeNiro]

Just now, stawns said:

Yet from the draft they have

 

Horvat

Petey

Hughes

Hogz

Podz

Demjo

Boeser

Rathbone

 

Is it really that bad? 

I like Podkolzins game but it’s time to start talking about him as yet another Benning miss.

 

When you consider Boldy, Caufield and even Krebs are looking like much better picks.

 

Brackett was even pushing for Zegras but Benning was unable to move up a spot.

 

Im done with defending Bennings drafting. It was supposed to be his saving grace and it was just as abysmal as the rest of his body of work.

 

He really set this franchise back 10 years. There hasn’t been a GM that has done this much damage to a franchise.

[stawns]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

the last ten years.  again.

 

which position would you rather be in?  10 years of records, all but 1 team trending upwards with depth, youth and cap space and then, the canucks. 

I'd say the true rebuild started in 2016ish, so we're not a decade into it.  It's no coincidence that the contracts that JB signed, that people don't like, are all expiring within a year or two of each other.......that was by design and marked the timeline for when he expected the young core to be ready to take over.

 

Unlike many, I think there's a good young core in there and that's the timeline PA needed to focus on........instead they doubled down on miller and boeser

[Fanuck]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

Yet from the draft they have

 

Horvat

Petey

Hughes

Hogz

Podz

Demjo

Boeser

Rathbone

 

Is it really that bad? 

It's not necessarily bad, but it's definitely not great either.  It clearly outlines a weakness in draft strategy and/or ability when we have one defencemen in the entire organization that can be considered an actual NHL regular player from 9 full years of drafting.     

[Smashian Kassian]

Just now, DeNiro said:

I like Podkolzins game but it’s time to start talking about him as yet another Benning miss.

 

When you consider Boldy, Caufield and even Krebs are looking like much better picks.

 

Brackett was even pushing for Zegras but Benning was unable to move up a spot.

 

Im done with defending Bennings drafting. It was supposed to be his saving grace and it was just as abysmal as the rest of his body of work.

 

He really set this franchise back 10 years. There hasn’t been a GM that has done this much damage to a franchise.

 

Completely disagree, we are 10 games into his 2nd season. This kid is going to be good, have some patience.

 

He set the team back with other moves but his drafting was still better than his predecessors.

 

[stawns]

Just now, Fanuck said:

It's not necessarily bad, but it's definitely not great either.  It clearly outlines a weakness in draft strategy and/or ability when we have one defencemen in the entire organization that can be considered an actual NHL regular player from 9 full years of drafting.     

I dunno, I think having that many drafted players as the core of your team is pretty good.  

[DrJockitch]

8 minutes ago, stawns said:

Yet from the draft they have

 

Horvat

Petey

Hughes

Hogz

Podz

Demjo

Boeser

Rathbone

 

Is it really that bad? 

It isn’t that it is that bad it is just that it isn’t that good compared to most teams that have been bad for the last several years. 
Only YB and Boston have drafted less first and second rounders than us in the last 10 years we have been bad, two championship teams (or at least Boston is a multi time SC loser in last 10 years).
‘Add to that a variety of bad contracts to underperforming vets and you have well, a 2-6-2 team with not a lot more to look forward to other than the mid season run to the middle of the draft.