[Trade] Canucks trade Bo Horvat to Islanders for Anthony Beauvillier, Aatu Raty, 2023 1st-round draft pick

[RUPERTKBD]

1 hour ago, jyu said:

Well said.

 

I recently moved to NY and so I am forced to watch NY based teams. And thanks to time zone difference, I watch the Canucks right after those games. And that has changed my mind over officiating in general.

 

Living in Vancouver watching predominantly Canucks games and some of the other Canadian teams, mostly Edmonton and Calgary, I really didn't like the officiating, the league, DoPS, and etc. Even in 2004, I thought the Flames should have won the cup in game 6 and thought that their cup got stolen to help boost popularity of the Florida team in Tampa.

 

During those years you mentioned, 2008-2013, I did feel like our success was prevented from the league. For example, Burrows-Auger incident, Rome hit on Horton and subsequent 4 game suspension, and Daniel Sedin getting a 5 minute major against the Sharks in game 4 in 2013 just to name a few. 

 

Maybe it is true, maybe the league and the refs were biased towards certain outcomes in the past. Or maybe I'm just biased because I love the Canucks. I will never know but I think it's possible that there were some biases involved back in the day when less money was involved and the league was smaller in comparison to now.

 

I've been roaming these forums since 2003 (when this forum just about came to existence). The common theme then and throughout the years was the corrupted league and the refs. But recently, I noticed less and less of those remarks here, which I'm glad to see because I can tell that officiating has improved quite a bit compared to back then. Game management still exists, especially in the playoffs but much better compared to the prior years.

 

I think it's time we move away from those unsubstantiated comments if possible. Sure, the refs will make mistakes and we can discuss that here but it's a bit disappointing to blame the refs for something that's clearly not their fault. 

 

 

58 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Your trip down memory lane of Canuckdom sounds familiar. Do I wear the tin hat? Ya I do. Particularly for the 2011 playoffs. Is it warranted? Maybe not but it feels better.  In support you have/had some pretty experienced NHL people who supported the theory of the Canucks being shafted. Quinn, Neilson, Neale, Burke, Gillis and Nonis. It isn't hard to build a business case for keeping CUPs in the USA. Markets count. They generate media revenue. Even worse this year with viewership down 20% YTD.  We are talking yearly income but also franchise valuations. 

 

People often comment that owners don't sell so they don't capitalize the value gained by the franchises. They don't have to sell to do that. They simply leverage that amount by using the asset as security. The cost of carrying that leverage is a legit business expense.   Is my hat getting any shinier? 

 

Can a Canadian club overcome and win a Cup. I am still a believer that they can win a mix of talent and luck. Yup the Lafayette bar! 

I've had this debate several times over the past decade (and longer) and my POV is always an unpopular one with Canuck fans....

 

I don't believe there is any sort of "fix" in to ensure "favored" markets do well at the expense of Canadian teams. People point to 2011 and the example usually given is that of Marchand punching Daniel repeatedly and the zebra waiting for Danny to say something so he could take both of them. In my mind, that's "game management". (something many of us dislike, but it isn't favoritism) In a close game in a playoff series, refs a reluctant to give manpower advantages. We can debate whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it isn't what we're talking about now.

 

The fact is, the Canucks finished that series with a clear advantage in powerplay opportunities. Unfortunately, (unlike the regular season) they were unable to capitalize.

 

That being said, if you want an example of how the "favoritism" complaint is over done, I would point to a series between the Habs and Capitals. (Sorry, can't recall the year off the top of my head, only the situation)

 

In that series, Washington had a goal disallowed on an extremely questionable Goaltender Interference call in game 7....a game (and a series) they would go on to lose by a goal..

 

This was the President's Trophy winning Capitals team. A team without a Stanley Cup, playing in a major American city and with one of the league's most marketable superstars.....yet in this case, apparently, the league was fine with the upset by an original six team that would draw fans and remain viable no matter what their record.

 

All of that aside, consider what would happen if such a conspiracy came to light. People like Bettman and Daly wouldn't just be fired....they'd go to jail. AFAIK, Gary makes several million per year, yet people believe he's willing to screw their team over.....All for the dubious benefit of "helping" teams he prefers.....

 

Sorry, I just can't buy it. Is the officiating sometimes incompetent and decisions by DoPS, etc, inconsistent? Absolutely. Is it biased against the Canucks / Canadian markets? No.

[KirkSave]

40 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Nobody looks good in those Captain Highliner jerseys.....

Whenever I see one, I suddenly have an insatiable appetite for a bag of fishermans friends!

[MattWN.]

7 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

 

I've had this debate several times over the past decade (and longer) and my POV is always an unpopular one with Canuck fans....

 

I don't believe there is any sort of "fix" in to ensure "favored" markets do well at the expense of Canadian teams. People point to 2011 and the example usually given is that of Marchand punching Daniel repeatedly and the zebra waiting for Danny to say something so he could take both of them. In my mind, that's "game management". (something many of us dislike, but it isn't favoritism) In a close game in a playoff series, refs a reluctant to give manpower advantages. We can debate whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it isn't what we're talking about now.

 

 

You're probably right, but there was a lot more to 2011 than you're letting on. When you factor in the leaked emails from Colin Campbell, the fact his son played for the Bruins, and the ludicrous the suspension to Rome. While Vancouver had more PP opportunities in the series, the refs were still only calling at best 1/3 of the blatant infractions. Obviously sometimes the calls went both ways, and there were plenty of Burrows/Torres plays where the officials looked the other way.. But at the end of the day, that style of game heavily favoured Boston. 

[cripplereh]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Well, if your kid is gonna pop them out like that, then yeah sure, he probably needs the extra million for diapers and baby formula...

Maybe pay to get both parents fixed as the world is way over populated and people should only be having one kid. 

 

 

Rest makes sense.

[cripplereh]

Bo says he thinks EP should be the next captain.  

 

Makes sense to me as he seems to be focused more then most on the team.

 

[RUPERTKBD]

7 minutes ago, MattWN. said:

You're probably right, but there was a lot more to 2011 than you're letting on. When you factor in the leaked emails from Colin Campbell, the fact his son played for the Bruins, and the ludicrous the suspension to Rome. While Vancouver had more PP opportunities in the series, the refs were still only calling at best 1/3 of the blatant infractions. Obviously sometimes the calls went both ways, and there were plenty of Burrows/Torres plays where the officials looked the other way.. But at the end of the day, that style of game heavily favoured Boston. 

I've already spoken at length about the Rome suspension. IMO, it had more to do with the optics of the hit (the image of an obviously concussed Horton lying on the ice) than it did some personal vendetta against the Canucks. (or trying to help his son's team win) We can agree to disagree on that.

 

That being said, I don't see how Campbell would have been able to influence the officials in that series. AFAIK, the director of DoPS has no such influence over on-ice officials....certainly no more than Terry Gregson who was NHL Director of Officiating in 2011 and did not have any children playing for the B's....

[cripplereh]

1 hour ago, MattWN. said:

Sure, it's probably part ego. But every single player in the history of the league wants to maximize the money they make. It's the same as anyone else, in any job setting. I don't think that makes Bo selfish, but he sure as f**k won't be worth what he gets paid, and im glad it's not us stuck under the weight of his contract next year. 

 

Taking into account all the available stats and metrics before this year (where nearly everything about this team has been a failure) Miller is the better player in nearly every category. I wish we could have traded both, but Miller in 2021-2022 moves the needle further than Bo in 2023. He's a more rounded player.

Saying that I don't know.Bo for faceoffs is top two and winning them more then not you usually win more games with a good team.Bi is worth more on a better team by far.

[-DLC-]

My sadness just increased 290% after the All Star game.

 

It's done now, isn't it?

 

Dammit.

[MattWN.]

1 minute ago, cripplereh said:

Saying that I don't know.Bo for faceoffs is top two and winning them more then not you usually win more games with a good team.Bi is worth more on a better team by far.

Bo has almost always been good on faceoffs, and our team hasn't won a f**king thing. In his 8 seasons prior to this one, he only surpassed 52 points twice. Once with 53 and once with 61. He's a career 50-55 point player having a career year feasting off the powerplay. 1/3 of his points have been scored with the man advantage. 

 

Also, no shit players who play on good teams win more games, but there are plenty of good faceoff men who don't move the dial in the wins/losses column. Bo is one of them.

[MattWN.]

4 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

My sadness just increased 290% after the All Star game.

 

It's done now, isn't it?

 

Dammit.

That's probably just because you watched the all star game.

 

[Gawdzukes]

3 hours ago, jyu said:

You watch many other games and reached that conclusion?

 

 It wasn’t low it was just an advice. Blaming the refs is getting old honestly. 
 

To say we are not playing physical because we are afraid of the refs it’s just downright… well embarrassing. I don’t know what else to say. If the team is truly playing timid because of the refs and the league, there really needs to be a formal complaint against the league followed by an investigation.

Myers is a tall guy and he will be the first to tell you that he inadvertently elbowed a lot of guys because of his height. 
 

I get complaints from people about my elbow when i play contact sports and I’m only 6’3. When you have five inches on someone, you can’t help it but just be mindful of your body.  The refs can’t not call the penalty because “oh that’s Myers, I’m sure he didn’t intend to elbow the guy, he’s just tall that is all.”

Yeah it is embarrassing after awhile. It's only natural to blame something, anything sometimes when you lose and every fanbase does it and expects it. To carry that around permanently though is pretty mind-boggling. To think the whole hockey world and thousands of high priced hockey employees are hellbent on punishing the Canucks and only the Canucks is pretty sad. It's poor sportsmanship really. Like you said, it happens every night in any other game around the league. As far as Myers he's a tall, sometimes uncoordinated giant. He makes reckless plays sometimes, and he sometimes gets unfair calls because of it. Just like any tall aggressive hockey player though. Not just because he's a Canuck. 

[Elias Pettersson]

11 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

My sadness just increased 290% after the All Star game.

 

It's done now, isn't it?

 

Dammit.

Miller will be in the lineup on Monday.  So it's not all bad for you...   

[-DLC-]

7 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Yeah it is embarrassing after awhile. It's only natural to blame something, anything sometimes when you lose and every fanbase does it and expects it. To carry that around permanently though is pretty mind-boggling. To think the whole hockey world and thousands of high priced hockey employees are hellbent on punishing the Canucks and only the Canucks is pretty sad. It's poor sportsmanship really. Like you said, it happens every night in any other game around the league. As far as Myers he's a tall, sometimes uncoordinated giant. He makes reckless plays sometimes, and he sometimes gets unfair calls because of it. Just like any tall aggressive hockey player though. Not just because he's a Canuck. 

No one's saying that so your exaggerations are futile. If your point is valid, you don't need to do that other stuff.

 

But hey...some of us carry around Miller baggage so it seems there's a double standard being applied here. It's only natural to blame something, anything (Miller). Right? Practice what you preach if you want to be taken seriously.

 

To carry that around permanently is pretty mind-boggling.

 

Refs aren't beyond reproach but some act as if they are. Not blaming them for everything, but calling them out because they're far from perfect. But wait...we can only do that if it's Miller! I forgot the your rules.

[-DLC-]

11 minutes ago, MattWN. said:

That's probably just because you watched the all star game.

 

It totally is. Just really hit home.

 

He was a good Canuck and we'll miss him. For sure.

[MattWN.]

Just now, -DLC- said:

It totally is. Just really hit home.

 

He was a good Canuck and we'll miss him. For sure.

It's time though, you gotta admit.

 

All the rumours of the country club vibes, and split locker room. It's all been on Bo's watch. At some point, the captain needs to take some of that blame, it's his locker room. We've basically been a floundering team the entire duration of his career, the team and player both need a new direction. 

 

I sincerely hope more changes are coming, and would have liked to see both JT and Bo moved, but bringing both JT and Bo back would have been the dumbest possible outcome for this team moving forward. 

[Nuxfanabroad]

15 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

My sadness just increased 290% after the All Star game.

 

It's done now, isn't it?

 

Dammit.

Deb, If we all refuse to let go of these great players & memories we'll become emotional-hoarders. Then the mind has no more space for junk dammit!

This is the sorta thing you'd like to ask George Carlin about! :^)

 

I trust you recognize the good times that'll arrive if we keep transferring to younger talent. & man, when you think of how much mileage we maxed outa' poor ol' Cory Schneids' aching bod. The Bo return was a windfall..& now we double up on it!

[-DLC-]

1 minute ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Deb, If we all refuse to let go of these great players & memories we'll become emotional-hoarders. Then the mind has no more space for junk dammit!

This is the sorta thing you'd like to ask George Carlin about! :^)

 

I trust you recognize the good times that'll arrive if we keep transferring to younger talent. & man, when you think of how much mileage we maxed outa' poor ol' Cory Schneids' aching bod. The Bo return was a windfall..& now we double up on it!

I know, I'll get over it...I always eventually do.

 

I just kind of hate it when it plays out this way. Stalemates and a guy moving on because we can't "afford" him...not because we don't "need/want" him on the team. Sucks.

[MattWN.]

1 minute ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Deb, If we all refuse to let go of these great players & memories we'll become emotional-hoarders. Then the mind has no more space for junk dammit!

This is the sorta thing you'd like to ask George Carlin about! :^)

 

I trust you recognize the good times that'll arrive if we keep transferring to younger talent. & man, when you think of how much mileage we maxed outa' poor ol' Cory Schneids' aching bod. The Bo return was a windfall..& now we double up on it!

Hey now. Don't underestimate the chance of having Raty be a bust, Beau being another overpaid/underperforming winger, and 1st round pick turning into another swing and a miss. As is tradition and all.

[Nuxfanabroad]

3 minutes ago, MattWN. said:

Hey now. Don't underestimate the chance of having Raty be a bust, Beau being another overpaid/underperforming winger, and 1st round pick turning into another swing and a miss. As is tradition and all.

You've been visiting the pre-curser again :^)

 

& you've got no meds/therapy to fix this incurable optimist!

[MattWN.]

1 minute ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

You've been visiting the pre-curser again :^)

 

& you've got no meds/therapy to fix this incurable optimist!

Only medicine is more cowbell.