Horvat was taken for granted here

[Dr. Crossbar]

6 hours ago, MattWN. said:

 

Regardless of having Bo or not, this team was going to be in no man's land regardless.

Regardless of having two regardlesses in one sentence, the word regardless was going to appear regardless. 

[*Buzzsaw*]

Yes, Horvat was taken for granted.

 

That was obvious from their initial signing of him, failure to extend him early when they could have done that, and finally their failure to allow CAP room to sign him in his last year.

 

Not that Bo Horvat was a Star, but he was a solid, reliable point getter, goal scorer, faceoff guy and utility man.

[Kevin Biestra]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:09 AM, Darius said:

Look at some posts (few examples out of many) from 1995 and 1996 from the internet Canucks forum (before CDC existed) regarding Linden...sound familiar?:

 

1995

"How many people are like me and are sick and tired of watching the captain of our hockey club fall to the ice and cover up at the slightest hint of provocation? Name one other captain of an NHL club who won't drop the gloves. There are many former winners of the Lady Bing that have more intestinal fortitude than our glorious captain. (Makita comes to mind) Don't get me wrong, I admire Trevor, but there are certain responsibilties involved in wearing the `C'. First and foremost you must lead. Lead in the dressing room, lead on the ice and lead into battle. Let's face it, any team whose back-up goaltender has more fighting majors than their leader is destined for the cellar."

--

 

 

In 1995?

 

Joe Sakic, Pat Flatley, Pat LaFontaine, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Brett Hull, Neal Broten, Wayne Gretzky.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[MaxVerstappen33]

18 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Yes, Horvat was taken for granted.

 

That was obvious from their initial signing of him, failure to extend him early when they could have done that, and finally their failure to allow CAP room to sign him in his last year.

 

Not that Bo Horvat was a Star, but he was a solid, reliable point getter, goal scorer, faceoff guy and utility man.

But our penalty kill has improved without those faceoff wins

[Baggins]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:22 PM, Dazzle said:

This right here is what's wrong with our fanbase.

 

It's always somebody else's fault with this fanbase, except ourselves. We can drill on the past over and over, but fail to address or acknowledge the present.

 

Horvat earned the right to market value. 7.25 and 8.50 is not that much of a difference. We just lowballed our former captain.

He earned the right and he got it. If a player really wants to stay he'll leave a little on the table to accomplish it. If a player wants full market value he may have to move on. That's business. You take that 1.25m you mentioned and multiply by 6 core players times 8 years and you have another 7.5m player on the team for those 8 years. That's the flipside.

 

Had he signed at 7m x 8 years last summer, and retired at 36 when it's done, his career earnings would total 98.325m. I don't think I'd cry for him leaving a little on the table. But the truth is I was hoping he'd sign a little under 7m during the summer and leave a little on the table. Instead we got a 25 yr old with 3 pts in 4 games, a pretty decent prospect and a 1st rounder. I'm ok with that.

[wai_lai416]

 

51 minutes ago, Baggins said:

He earned the right and he got it. If a player really wants to stay he'll leave a little on the table to accomplish it. If a player wants full market value he may have to move on. That's business. You take that 1.25m you mentioned and multiply by 6 core players times 8 years and you have another 7.5m player on the team for those 8 years. That's the flipside.

 

Had he signed at 7m x 8 years last summer, and retired at 36 when it's done, his career earnings would total 98.325m. I don't think I'd cry for him leaving a little on the table. But the truth is I was hoping he'd sign a little under 7m during the summer and leave a little on the table. Instead we got a 25 yr old with 3 pts in 4 games, a pretty decent prospect and a 1st rounder. I'm ok with that.

if the management offered anything close to 7mil 6.75 even the deal probably would have been done. fact of the matter is they never even offered him anything close to 6.. he's gone whatever if Miller continues to play like he is the next couple season no complaints, but we all saw how great he was after the coaching change last season and then came out the way he did this season so there's that worry. 

[Baggins]

5 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

 

if the management offered anything close to 7mil 6.75 even the deal probably would have been done. fact of the matter is they never even offered him anything close to 6.. he's gone whatever if Miller continues to play like he is the next couple season no complaints, but we all saw how great he was after the coaching change last season and then came out the way he did this season so there's that worry. 

So you're saying he was offered no raise at all. Do you have a source for that?

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

 

if the management offered anything close to 7mil 6.75 even the deal probably would have been done. fact of the matter is they never even offered him anything close to 6.. he's gone whatever if Miller continues to play like he is the next couple season no complaints, but we all saw how great he was after the coaching change last season and then came out the way he did this season so there's that worry. 

It was reported by several media sources, and posted here in other threads, that Bo was offered 49 million (7x7). For a 50-60 point second line centre, who doesn’t drive offence, and is less than average defensively, that’s more than fair.  Even his new GM, Lou Lam, said the Islanders payed too much and for too long to sign Bo. 

Imhao Bo was worth the Landeskog contract. (7 mil x 8 years). Bo wanted more. Bo wanted money. He was the elephant in the room. One big bite and he’s gone. 

[wai_lai416]

40 minutes ago, Baggins said:

So you're saying he was offered no raise at all. Do you have a source for that?

there are plenty of reports out there prior to the season start the starting offer for horvat started in the low 5s and a few reporting RNH contract. even if it's not the RNH contract low 5s basically paycut or no raise... i dont think Bo at any point deserves a starting offer less than what he was making.. starting offer at 6 would have been reasonable.. low 5 is a straight insult.. don't even care if that's a negotiation tactic.. if that's the case did they go up to miller in the summer and start with an offer with no raise and tell him we'll give u a contract based on what you have accomplished prior to your outbreak?

 

36 minutes ago, Alflives said:

It was reported by several media sources, and posted here in other threads, that Bo was offered 49 million (7x7). For a 50-60 point second line centre, who doesn’t drive offence, and is less than average defensively, that’s more than fair.  Even his new GM, Lou Lam, said the Islanders payed too much and for too long to sign Bo. 

Imhao Bo was worth the Landeskog contract. (7 mil x 8 years). Bo wanted more. Bo wanted money. He was the elephant in the room. One big bite and he’s gone. 

again they didn't offer that to him prior to the season. they offered that to him after his hot start, why would he accept it at that point when he might as well continue playing and see if he can get more if he continues to do well which he did.. and you can't compare landeskog contract.. he took a discount on a team that's on the cupse of being a perennial cup contender.. meanwhile the canucks are on the cupse of NHL no mans land.. yearly not good enough for the playoff.. not bad enough for the lottery. if they offered him 7mil x 7 or 8 at the start of the season? he probably would have taken it.. they offered that to him after his value gone up of coz he's going to say no. the management showed him no respect.. why bother with giving them a discount? he's going to get his pay whether it's canucks or elsewhere.. and if elsewhere he might actually get a chance to prove himself he's more than just a 2C if given the opportunity just like Miller have. if we are using landeskog as the standard for contract.. then JT shouldn't be worth more than Landeskog either...

 

did NYI overpaid? for sure.. bo probably would have only gotten 7.5-8mil in ufa and probably just 7 years too.. only reason NYI overpaid? coz they can't afford to have bo walk into ufa.. bo have no ties with the team or the city so he probably wasn't even planning on signing there in the first place till they gave him such a huge contract. it's a gamble but the consequence is not as big as u make it out to be. in couple years if the cap goes up 3-5mil every year.. the extra 1mil they paid bo wouldn't make a difference.

[IBatch]

56 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

there are plenty of reports out there prior to the season start the starting offer for horvat started in the low 5s and a few reporting RNH contract. even if it's not the RNH contract low 5s basically paycut or no raise... i dont think Bo at any point deserves a starting offer less than what he was making.. starting offer at 6 would have been reasonable.. low 5 is a straight insult.. don't even care if that's a negotiation tactic.. if that's the case did they go up to miller in the summer and start with an offer with no raise and tell him we'll give u a contract based on what you have accomplished prior to your outbreak?

 

again they didn't offer that to him prior to the season. they offered that to him after his hot start, why would he accept it at that point when he might as well continue playing and see if he can get more if he continues to do well which he did.. and you can't compare landeskog contract.. he took a discount on a team that's on the cupse of being a perennial cup contender.. meanwhile the canucks are on the cupse of NHL no mans land.. yearly not good enough for the playoff.. not bad enough for the lottery. if they offered him 7mil x 7 or 8 at the start of the season? he probably would have taken it.. they offered that to him after his value gone up of coz he's going to say no. the management showed him no respect.. why bother with giving them a discount? he's going to get his pay whether it's canucks or elsewhere.. and if elsewhere he might actually get a chance to prove himself he's more than just a 2C if given the opportunity just like Miller have. if we are using landeskog as the standard for contract.. then JT shouldn't be worth more than Landeskog either...

 

did NYI overpaid? for sure.. bo probably would have only gotten 7.5-8mil in ufa and probably just 7 years too.. only reason NYI overpaid? coz they can't afford to have bo walk into ufa.. bo have no ties with the team or the city so he probably wasn't even planning on signing there in the first place till they gave him such a huge contract. it's a gamble but the consequence is not as big as u make it out to be. in couple years if the cap goes up 3-5mil every year.. the extra 1mil they paid bo wouldn't make a difference.

Once you add the fact the club needed change, and Bo was their biggest chip to help create that ... and well Lou "too much money too much term"  - it does affect the dressing room.   We already had a culture, or have had a culture since the early 2010's, of a country club with overpaid vets ... it is what it is.    I'd of rather signed Bo in the summer.   For under 7... eventually he was offered a deal that would have been ok for the team, but obviously it wasn't enough for him.     Now we've got better odds at a nicer pick this year (own),  another decent first which we haven't had for a long time, an asset that could also be flipped or used...etc etc.   

 

Find it a little odd that folks have been wishing for something like this for years (trading a player before he's not an anchor - the Sedins we're both anchors their last deal, so was Edler, Bieksa and Burrows) and we finally make a move ... and some don't like it.  

 

Yes it would probably have worked out better if we traded Miller and signed Horvat to 7 x 8 in the summer instead.    At least they didn't make the same mistake twice.    Opportunity costs on Horvats cap also matter.   Both at 7 and at 8.5 (which isn't going to work out even with cap going up ... not likely anyways).    EP is the guy to spend on.  What did Horvat do to earn get over 10% of the cap his first year?   Sedins had to do heck of a lot more.   So did Kesler (and he didn't get that).  

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

there are plenty of reports out there prior to the season start the starting offer for horvat started in the low 5s and a few reporting RNH contract. even if it's not the RNH contract low 5s basically paycut or no raise... i dont think Bo at any point deserves a starting offer less than what he was making.. starting offer at 6 would have been reasonable.. low 5 is a straight insult.. don't even care if that's a negotiation tactic.. if that's the case did they go up to miller in the summer and start with an offer with no raise and tell him we'll give u a contract based on what you have accomplished prior to your outbreak?

 

again they didn't offer that to him prior to the season. they offered that to him after his hot start, why would he accept it at that point when he might as well continue playing and see if he can get more if he continues to do well which he did.. and you can't compare landeskog contract.. he took a discount on a team that's on the cupse of being a perennial cup contender.. meanwhile the canucks are on the cupse of NHL no mans land.. yearly not good enough for the playoff.. not bad enough for the lottery. if they offered him 7mil x 7 or 8 at the start of the season? he probably would have taken it.. they offered that to him after his value gone up of coz he's going to say no. the management showed him no respect.. why bother with giving them a discount? he's going to get his pay whether it's canucks or elsewhere.. and if elsewhere he might actually get a chance to prove himself he's more than just a 2C if given the opportunity just like Miller have. if we are using landeskog as the standard for contract.. then JT shouldn't be worth more than Landeskog either...

 

did NYI overpaid? for sure.. bo probably would have only gotten 7.5-8mil in ufa and probably just 7 years too.. only reason NYI overpaid? coz they can't afford to have bo walk into ufa.. bo have no ties with the team or the city so he probably wasn't even planning on signing there in the first place till they gave him such a huge contract. it's a gamble but the consequence is not as big as u make it out to be. in couple years if the cap goes up 3-5mil every year.. the extra 1mil they paid bo wouldn't make a difference.

Believe what you want. But Bo was the elephant in our room. He’s been removed and we are better for it. 

[IBatch]

On 2/12/2023 at 12:29 AM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

In 1995?

 

Joe Sakic, Pat Flatley, Pat LaFontaine, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Brett Hull, Neal Broten, Wayne Gretzky.

 

But didn't Broten lay into Gretzky once? Of course i'm just teasing.   But lol Gretzky should have kept the gloves on. 

[Baggins]

7 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

there are plenty of reports out there prior to the season start the starting offer for horvat started in the low 5s and a few reporting RNH contract. even if it's not the RNH contract low 5s basically paycut or no raise... i dont think Bo at any point deserves a starting offer less than what he was making.. starting offer at 6 would have been reasonable.. low 5 is a straight insult.. don't even care if that's a negotiation tactic.. if that's the case did they go up to miller in the summer and start with an offer with no raise and tell him we'll give u a contract based on what you have accomplished prior to your outbreak?

 

again they didn't offer that to him prior to the season. they offered that to him after his hot start, why would he accept it at that point when he might as well continue playing and see if he can get more if he continues to do well which he did.. and you can't compare landeskog contract.. he took a discount on a team that's on the cupse of being a perennial cup contender.. meanwhile the canucks are on the cupse of NHL no mans land.. yearly not good enough for the playoff.. not bad enough for the lottery. if they offered him 7mil x 7 or 8 at the start of the season? he probably would have taken it.. they offered that to him after his value gone up of coz he's going to say no. the management showed him no respect.. why bother with giving them a discount? he's going to get his pay whether it's canucks or elsewhere.. and if elsewhere he might actually get a chance to prove himself he's more than just a 2C if given the opportunity just like Miller have. if we are using landeskog as the standard for contract.. then JT shouldn't be worth more than Landeskog either...

 

did NYI overpaid? for sure.. bo probably would have only gotten 7.5-8mil in ufa and probably just 7 years too.. only reason NYI overpaid? coz they can't afford to have bo walk into ufa.. bo have no ties with the team or the city so he probably wasn't even planning on signing there in the first place till they gave him such a huge contract. it's a gamble but the consequence is not as big as u make it out to be. in couple years if the cap goes up 3-5mil every year.. the extra 1mil they paid bo wouldn't make a difference.

If Bo completes the season 50+ goals and over a ppg he would definitely have a market for 8.5m in free agency. Free agency is all about overpaying good players because it's a bidding war. If he had a history of that kind of production he'd go for north of 8.5m. At 28 Tavares got 7 x11m after an 84 pt season and had never hit 40 goals in a season. But he had a history of production. By all reports TO was the one team he really wanted to sign with. He didn't do them any favors on his price tag though.

 

As to Landeskog, and his team being good versus bad, I don't buy it. Short term you might have a point, but we're talking long term contracts. A player is either willing to leave money on the table, which can mean better depth for for the length of the deal, or he wants to cash in. Your notion of "the team isn't very good so I'll gouge them for the next 8 years" seems rather shortsighted.

[wai_lai416]

7 hours ago, Baggins said:

If Bo completes the season 50+ goals and over a ppg he would definitely have a market for 8.5m in free agency. Free agency is all about overpaying good players because it's a bidding war. If he had a history of that kind of production he'd go for north of 8.5m. At 28 Tavares got 7 x11m after an 84 pt season and had never hit 40 goals in a season. But he had a history of production. By all reports TO was the one team he really wanted to sign with. He didn't do them any favors on his price tag though.

 

As to Landeskog, and his team being good versus bad, I don't buy it. Short term you might have a point, but we're talking long term contracts. A player is either willing to leave money on the table, which can mean better depth for for the length of the deal, or he wants to cash in. Your notion of "the team isn't very good so I'll gouge them for the next 8 years" seems rather shortsighted.

did landeskog leave a lot of money on the table?? no not really.. at the time it was widely speculated he would command about 8mil in the open market. if landeskog would have signed for example 8mil in new york.. he would get about 300k more per season 7 years would get him around 28.7mil.. vs if he signed in colorado at 7mil for 8 years he would have gotten 31mil take him pay.. and if he signed for 7 years he would have gotten 1.5mil less.. so yes players would leave money on the table to help a cup contending team long term if it make sense financially in colorado's case it does as 1mil in cap but hardly any difference in take home pay for the player. 

 

this have nothing to do with the team isn't very good so i'll gouge them... not willing to take a discount doesn't mean they are gouging the team. if your work place is negotiating a contract with you and they start you off with a paycut.. how likely are you going to want to continue negotiating let alone give them a discount to extend after being insulted with a paycut? prolly unlikely?? or people will say you get paid millions so suck it up... plenty of company loses contract over small amounts all the time over the negotiation process.. that's just how human nature is.. you get insulted you are less likely to budge. 

[Dazzle]

Dom from The Athletic compared the Bo Horvat contracts with Miller. Miller's contract doesn't look good at all.

 

 

vs Miller (in short, we overpaid him by 2 mill). Horvat's also 2 years younger.

 

[Baggins]

20 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

did landeskog leave a lot of money on the table?? no not really.. at the time it was widely speculated he would command about 8mil in the open market. if landeskog would have signed for example 8mil in new york.. he would get about 300k more per season 7 years would get him around 28.7mil.. vs if he signed in colorado at 7mil for 8 years he would have gotten 31mil take him pay.. and if he signed for 7 years he would have gotten 1.5mil less.. so yes players would leave money on the table to help a cup contending team long term if it make sense financially in colorado's case it does as 1mil in cap but hardly any difference in take home pay for the player. 

 

this have nothing to do with the team isn't very good so i'll gouge them... not willing to take a discount doesn't mean they are gouging the team. if your work place is negotiating a contract with you and they start you off with a paycut.. how likely are you going to want to continue negotiating let alone give them a discount to extend after being insulted with a paycut? prolly unlikely?? or people will say you get paid millions so suck it up... plenty of company loses contract over small amounts all the time over the negotiation process.. that's just how human nature is.. you get insulted you are less likely to budge. 

Did I say gauging? Nope. As a matter of fact I said "If Bo completes the season 50+ goals and over a ppg he would definitely have a market for 8.5m in free agency". But don't whine about a player leaving to get that top dollar. No employer is required to pay employees top dollar. That's their perogative. UFA contracts are often overpayments. If an employee truly wants to stay they'll take less to do so. If he wants the homerun he may well have to move on. Bo chose the latter. That's life. I've declined job offers (from former managers that moved on) for more money several times because I was quite happy where I was. 

[Alflives]

3 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Dom from The Athletic compared the Bo Horvat contracts with Miller. Miller's contract doesn't look good at all.

 

 

vs Miller (in short, we overpaid him by 2 mill). Horvat's also 2 years younger.

 

Based on only this season, which Is beyond stupido. Bo is, as Lou Lam says, WAY overpaid. He’s a 7 mil player MAX. Miller took less than market value to stay here. We kept the superior player and for a better contract. Than goodness we got the elephant out of our room. 

[higgyfan]

3 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Dom from The Athletic compared the Bo Horvat contracts with Miller. Miller's contract doesn't look good at all.

 

 

vs Miller (in short, we overpaid him by 2 mill). Horvat's also 2 years younger.

 

Both players played very well in their contract year.  Miller got his contract, based on his performance last

season and some will say that he took a discount.  On the other hand, Bo received his contract for his

performance this season and some will say he's overpaid.  I guess the answer will be if Bo can sustain

his performance, can Miller get his contract year game back; or are they just overpaid players who

put in good performances at the right time.

 

As a Canuck fan, I am first and foremost hoping for JT, but I am not a Bo hater, so I hope that he performs

well after the Canucks get their NYIs 1st.

 

 

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

Both players played very well in their contract year.  Miller got his contract, based on his performance last

season and some will say that he took a discount.  On the other hand, Bo received his contract for his

performance this season and some will say he's overpaid.  I guess the answer will be if Bo can sustain

his performance, can Miller get his contract year game back; or are they just overpaid players who

put in good performances at the right time.

 

As a Canuck fan, I am first and foremost hoping for JT, but I am not a Bo hater, so I hope that he performs

well after the Canucks get their NYIs 1st.

 

 

Yup. Once we have our pick from them then Bo is dead to me. 

[alt kilgore]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:07 PM, Dazzle said:

These couple of games have revealed something - fanbase and organization took him for granted.

 

Horvat gave his heart and soul to this city and team. And what did we do? We made all sorts of excuses to diminish his contributions. Worst of all, him getting 8.5 mill was him apparently "getting greedy"

 

Now NYI fans are cheering for him in a way that fans haven't done before, despite the number of jerseys.

 

Horvat has left us behind - and he isn't going to look back. Management and the fans here have let him down for the last time.

 

We talk about other people at fault (i.e. Benning), but we rarely talk about how we seriously screwed up.

 

We did Horvat dirty.

 

I could agree that fans took Horvats contribution while he was here for granted. Like a lot of fans do for a lot of veteran players who they see a lot.

 

But its ludicrous to imply it is the fans fault (for him taking 8.5 over 7 and leaving?...or...fault for what then?). And "WE did Horvat dirty".  Speak for yourself Daz, What I saw was good support from fans. I've never heard him being booed. When he scored he was cheered. What are you talking about?  In here?  The forum where threads like "Burrows, do we really need him?" were created?  You think Bo looks to CDC for his emotional support?.  Do you think he in any way whatsoever would be thinking that it was the fans that drove him out of town? 

 

It wasn't Bure love, or Petey love, but Bo had a lot of respect here for what he brought.  It was what he didn't bring that became more noticeable especially after we had a more passionate leader like Miller on the roster to compare to.  BB was calling JT one of the Captains and "a true leader".  That was our beloved happy coach dissing Bo, not fans.

 

He was serious, and fairly steady, not injury prone who won a lot of faceoffs, a big body. Also...before his contract year he'd take nights off, and never stood up for his teammates physically, not good defensively.  But who somehow managed to go to another gear scoring goals in his retirement contract season. Good for him, that's smart.  I'm not crying for the owner of the Islanders.

 

But what did the fans have to do with Bo leaving?