Horvat was taken for granted here

[Baggins]

41 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

Both players played very well in their contract year.  Miller got his contract, based on his performance last

season and some will say that he took a discount.  On the other hand, Bo received his contract for his

performance this season and some will say he's overpaid.  I guess the answer will be if Bo can sustain

his performance, can Miller get his contract year game back; or are they just overpaid players who

put in good performances at the right time.

 

As a Canuck fan, I am first and foremost hoping for JT, but I am not a Bo hater, so I hope that he performs

well after the Canucks get their NYIs 1st.

 

 

Actually this was the "contact year" for both. After last season both were elligible to extend with one year remaining on their deals. Management could have waited until into this season to extend Miller to see if he would keep up the pace but that likely would have upped his price if he did keep that same pace. Taveres got 7x 11m at age 27 without ever hitting 90 pts 5 years ago. Not much of a bargain considering playing for the Leafs was his childhood dream. Millers 8m after a 99 pt season pales in comparison. But he is older which lowers it but also has two seasons of solid production prior as well. Given his prior seasons I felt 8m was pretty fair. Neither a true bargain nor a homerun for the player. Compare Miller's deal to Kadri. Kadri got 7x 7m after an 87 pt career year and it runs until he's 39. I like Millers deal better. Bo has a history of decent production, but not high, and is having a career year. I think his 8.5m until 36 is riskier than Millers 8m until 37.

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

Did I say gauging? Nope. As a matter of fact I said "If Bo completes the season 50+ goals and over a ppg he would definitely have a market for 8.5m in free agency". But don't whine about a player leaving to get that top dollar. No employer is required to pay employees top dollar. That's their perogative. UFA contracts are often overpayments. If an employee truly wants to stay they'll take less to do so. If he wants the homerun he may well have to move on. Bo chose the latter. That's life. I've declined job offers (from former managers that moved on) for more money several times because I was quite happy where I was. 

Again I’m not blaming or whining about bo leaving for money. the management already made it clear they don’t care if he stays or not with the contract offers that were made prior to the start. Low 5s is an insult I don’t care how you look at it. Again if they offered him between 6.5-7 deals done. Would he leave money on the table? Who know he might if he gotten a legitimate offer to begin with instead of a pay cut. Maybe he would have taken 6.5 if the management was serious instead of being a joke. 

[Baggins]

3 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

Again I’m not blaming or whining about bo leaving for money. the management already made it clear they don’t care if he stays or not with the contract offers that were made prior to the start. Low 5s is an insult I don’t care how you look at it. Again if they offered him between 6.5-7 deals done. Would he leave money on the table? Who know he might if he gotten a legitimate offer to begin with instead of a pay cut. Maybe he would have taken 6.5 if the management was serious instead of being a joke. 

Again, source... 

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

Again, source... 

seravalli reported multiple other "insider" reported.. i have no clue how to embed twitter.. u can find it all over twitters or even in the horvat thread.. "the offer in the summer was exactly the rnh 8x5.125" it's literally been talked about for the longest time back in september.. and again brought up in december.. again you can choose whether to believe it or not since a lot of people on this board claims every single insider is an idiot, liar, no source etc and just trying to gas light the management just like what they did in the boudreau situation.

[Baggins]

15 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

seravalli reported multiple other "insider" reported.. i have no clue how to embed twitter.. u can find it all over twitters or even in the horvat thread.. "the offer in the summer was exactly the rnh 8x5.125" it's literally been talked about for the longest time back in september.. and again brought up in december.. again you can choose whether to believe it or not since a lot of people on this board claims every single insider is an idiot, liar, no source etc and just trying to gas light the management just like what they did in the boudreau situation.

Ok, I spent the time looking through the Horvat thread (thanks for nothing) and found one tweet from one source. Not exactly "hard evidence". On the flipside there was a tweet from one source saying the Horvat camp was asking $7.7m. Now management always starts low and the agent high but neither was remotely in the region of what Horvat was worth. I saw several hockey pundits on TV saying Horvat was looking for "close to" Miller money and "north of" $7m. If you're going to damn one for being unreasonable you have to damn both. Many so called insiders are actually just speculating. I say this because of how often they turn out completely wrong. Often it's nothing more than the rumor mill seeking likes and shares. But for a guy that wanted to be a career Canuck, Horvat seemed to be swinging for the fence on his contract demand.

[Dr. Crossbar]

So, if Horvat was taken ... for ... Granted ...

 

We still haven't seen Granted in the lineup yet.

[shiznak]

5 hours ago, Baggins said:

Ok, I spent the time looking through the Horvat thread (thanks for nothing) and found one tweet from one source. Not exactly "hard evidence". On the flipside there was a tweet from one source saying the Horvat camp was asking $7.7m. Now management always starts low and the agent high but neither was remotely in the region of what Horvat was worth. I saw several hockey pundits on TV saying Horvat was looking for "close to" Miller money and "north of" $7m. If you're going to damn one for being unreasonable you have to damn both. Many so called insiders are actually just speculating. I say this because of how often they turn out completely wrong. Often it's nothing more than the rumor mill seeking likes and shares. But for a guy that wanted to be a career Canuck, Horvat seemed to be swinging for the fence on his contract demand.

Signing Horvat at 7.7m, at the beginning of the season would have been fair market value. You look at players at that range, particularly Hayes and O’Reilly. They produce at a similar points rate as Bo, when they signed their deals.  I don’t understand how management screwed up this badly, by not meeting in the middle at the beginning of the season. Horvat at 7-7.5m would have been a far better investment to this team moving forward than Miller at 8m.

[wai_lai416]

6 hours ago, Baggins said:

Ok, I spent the time looking through the Horvat thread (thanks for nothing) and found one tweet from one source. Not exactly "hard evidence". On the flipside there was a tweet from one source saying the Horvat camp was asking $7.7m. Now management always starts low and the agent high but neither was remotely in the region of what Horvat was worth. I saw several hockey pundits on TV saying Horvat was looking for "close to" Miller money and "north of" $7m. If you're going to damn one for being unreasonable you have to damn both. Many so called insiders are actually just speculating. I say this because of how often they turn out completely wrong. Often it's nothing more than the rumor mill seeking likes and shares. But for a guy that wanted to be a career Canuck, Horvat seemed to be swinging for the fence on his contract demand.

You went thru the original thread the 500+ pages to look? Prolly be a lot easier to just Google search and it’ll just pop up. Regardless of that.. you really believe bo was looking for millers money prior to the season start? Bo prolly was waiting for a fair offer the entire summer and they didn’t even bother negotiating with him at all until mid September until after miller was signed. They showed how much they wanted Horvat.. and no miller contract at the time have no effect on Horvat negotiation  if they were planning to re sign both. Unless you believe Horvat wants a matching contract of millers. They pretty much wasn’t planning on negotiating with Horvat until they sign miller. There’s no way Horvat or his agent was looking at more than kadri landeskog etc prior to the start of the season as comparable. After the start of the season and the pace he was on sure but prior? 

Edited February 16, 2023 by wai_lai416

[Timråfan]

4 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

You went thru the original thread the 500+ pages to look? Prolly be a lot easier to just Google search and it’ll just pop up. Regardless of that.. you really believe bo was looking for millers money prior to the season start? Bo prolly was waiting for a fair offer the entire summer and they didn’t even bother negotiating with him at all until mid September until after miller was signed. They showed how much they wanted Horvat.. and no miller contract at the time have no effect on Horvat negotiation  if they were planning to re sign both. Unless you believe Horvat wants a matching contract of millers. They pretty much wasn’t planning on negotiating with Horvat until they sign miller. There’s no way Horvat or his agent was looking at more than kadri landeskog etc prior to the start of the season as comparable. After the start of the season and the pace he was on sure but prior? 

Horvat probably denied any earlier offer and gambled on his goalscoring..

As I recall it fans here talked about Horvat playing a bit more offensive this season.

 

[wai_lai416]

3 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Horvat probably denied any earlier offer and gambled on his goalscoring..

As I recall it fans here talked about Horvat playing a bit more offensive this season.

 

i don't think any of the offer was anywhere even close to 7mil till like mid nov early december when he was already on his hot streak.. considering what they have been paying boeser on his bridge and what he just got now.. anything less than boeser is a joke and i would decline it too. boeser didn't earn his 5.8 cap hit on his previous contract nor his current 6.75 or whatever it's at.. and both are higher than horvat's current contract.. and i mean is he playing more offensive?? his shots attempt per game is almost identical to years past. he's just hitting the target more often.. horvat took the save gamble.. no matter what happens during the season there's no way he would get an offer in the UFA less than what JR offered him prior to the season start basically anything canucks were offering he can easily do better on the UFA i don't blame him for that they want him to take a good 20% less than market so they can continue overpaying anchors in other position. 

[Timråfan]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

i don't think any of the offer was anywhere even close to 7mil till like mid nov early december when he was already on his hot streak.. considering what they have been paying boeser on his bridge and what he just got now.. anything less than boeser is a joke and i would decline it too. boeser didn't earn his 5.8 cap hit on his previous contract nor his current 6.75 or whatever it's at.. and both are higher than horvat's current contract.. and i mean is he playing more offensive?? his shots attempt per game is almost identical to years past. he's just hitting the target more often.. horvat took the save gamble.. no matter what happens during the season there's no way he would get an offer in the UFA less than what JR offered him prior to the season start basically anything canucks were offering he can easily do better on the UFA i don't blame him for that they want him to take a good 20% less than market so they can continue overpaying anchors in other position. 

First, I only believe any numbers if Horvat or his agent is talking about them.

I don’t bother but contract rhumours.

 

Second, Boeser is an enigma(plus poster boy sell cllthes) and as such we have to trust management that it has something to do with his rehabilitation to do.

Similar to EK with the Sharks.

It took some time for EK to regain his play and it can be the same with Boeser.

 

Third, we can’t have a 2nd C taking too much cap.

Miller is a 1st winger so he can take that money.

Hughes is a 1st LHD wich is what made Bennings move for OEL mindboggling.

 

It’s clear that this management is fairly strict regarding what cap each part of the team should have.

Hence not spend big on a RHD before either Myers or OEL is off the books.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Timråfan

[spook007]

3 hours ago, Timråfan said:

First, I only believe any numbers if Horvat or his agent is talking about them.

I don’t bother but contract rhumours.

 

Second, Boeser is an enigma(plus poster boy sell cllthes) and as such we have to trust management that it has something to do with his rehabilitation to do.

Similar to EK with the Sharks.

It took some time for EK to regain his play and it can be the same with Boeser.

 

Third, we can’t have a 2nd C taking too much cap.

Miller is a 1st winger so he can take that money.

Hughes is a 1st LHD wich is what made Bennings move for OEL mindboggling.

 

It’s clear that this management is fairly strict regarding what cap each part of the team should have.

Hence not spend big on a RHD before either Myers or OEL is off the books.

 

Boeser money will be used for a bigger Kuzmenko deal in 2 years... Boeser is toast here regardless of the reasons to his play.

Garland is still taking a fair chunk and so is Mika. 

 

Money is needed for EPs next contract, and Myers money will be invested in a new RHD...  They may find money for a 2C, but not obscene money and they really need another RHD as well... 

 

[alt kilgore]

On 2/14/2023 at 5:50 PM, higgyfan said:

Both players played very well in their contract year.  Miller got his contract, based on his performance last

season and some will say that he took a discount.  On the other hand, Bo received his contract for his

performance this season and some will say he's overpaid.  I guess the answer will be if Bo can sustain

his performance, can Miller get his contract year game back; or are they just overpaid players who

put in good performances at the right time.

 

As a Canuck fan, I am first and foremost hoping for JT, but I am not a Bo hater, so I hope that he performs

well after the Canucks get their NYIs 1st.

 

 

Last season was the season before both of their contract years started.  That is what separated Miller from Horvat is some ways.  Miller put up 99 points in a year before his contract season began. And he's been pretty reliable his whole time here. While Horvat's numbers only ballooned this season, his retirement contract season.

 

 

11 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

i don't think any of the offer was anywhere even close to 7mil till like mid nov early december when he was already on his hot streak.. considering what they have been paying boeser on his bridge and what he just got now.. anything less than boeser is a joke and i would decline it too. boeser didn't earn his 5.8 cap hit on his previous contract nor his current 6.75 or whatever it's at.. and both are higher than horvat's current contract.. and i mean is he playing more offensive?? his shots attempt per game is almost identical to years past. he's just hitting the target more often.. horvat took the save gamble.. no matter what happens during the season there's no way he would get an offer in the UFA less than what JR offered him prior to the season start basically anything canucks were offering he can easily do better on the UFA i don't blame him for that they want him to take a good 20% less than market so they can continue overpaying anchors in other position. 

Its difficult to know exact numbers as its all speculation, but in this article they purport that the Canucks last last offer was 7.5.

Makes me think that they offered him 7 million before the season started, and upped it to 7.5 as their final offer. But no one knows.  I'm sure you can find an article that says he was only offered 5.5 or something. Only Bo knows.

 

https://www.bladeofsteel.com/Insider-reveals-how-many-millions-Bo-Horvat-turned-down-from-the-Vancouver-Canucks-205372

 

Days after the Bo Horvat saga ended in Vancouver and a new chapter is set to begin at UBS Arena, reports have surfaced that Horvat and his camp turned down a deal in the neighborhood of seven years at approximately $7.5 million AAV from the Canucks.

 

And IAH, the Canucks dodged a bullet if Horvat would have accepted 7.5 x 7.   At any rate, it was just time to move on with Bo.  Good luck to him.

[higgyfan]

10 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Last season was the season before both of their contract years started.  That is what separated Miller from Horvat is some ways.  Miller put up 99 points in a year before his contract season began. And he's been pretty reliable his whole time here. While Horvat's numbers only ballooned this season, his retirement contract season.

Bo worked very hard in the offseason to improve his offence and clearly it had a big effect on his game. 

He may not be able to sustain his current rate of scoring, but it wouldn't surprise if he continues to

have much better results than before this season; although he did have 31 goals the year before.

 

21 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Days after the Bo Horvat saga ended in Vancouver and a new chapter is set to begin at UBS Arena, reports have surfaced that Horvat and his camp turned down a deal in the neighborhood of seven years at approximately $7.5 million AAV from the Canucks.

 

And IAH, the Canucks dodged a bullet if Horvat would have accepted 7.5 x 7.   At any rate, it was just time to move on with Bo.  Good luck to him

I think some fans have a hate on for Bo because he chose to leave Vancouver.  The way I see it, Bo was

committed to +8 yrs of dreadful hockey with the Canucks and deserved the right to make a change. 

Quite frankly, along with the daily dealings of an obsessed media, only once playing in the playoffs

(albeit 'bubble hockey') and now seeing that the team is back to rebuilding/retooling;  I applaud his move.

 

10 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

 

 

 

[Baggins]

18 hours ago, shiznak said:

Signing Horvat at 7.7m, at the beginning of the season would have been fair market value. You look at players at that range, particularly Hayes and O’Reilly. They produce at a similar points rate as Bo, when they signed their deals.  I don’t understand how management screwed up this badly, by not meeting in the middle at the beginning of the season. Horvat at 7-7.5m would have been a far better investment to this team moving forward than Miller at 8m.

Do you view either of those contracts as good deals for the teams? O'Reily signed his deal at 25. I would wager his deal involved anticipated improvement going into his prime. Much like Boeser's previous deal ending at $7.5m. That deal was gambling on continued improvement in play and production. High for time of signing and potentially a bargain in the final year. Team often do that with good young players. Didn't exactly work out for us. Hayes is quite good at pk but Philly overpaid him considering he was a 40+ pt guy on a 50+ pt contracxt yeasr. The NYR traded him because they weren't close on negotiations at the trade deadline. Winnipeg then traded his rights for a 5th rounder prior to free agency. Fans here would have been screaming about signing a 40 pt player for over $7m regardless of of being a good pk'er. Pretty good player imo but 7m+ good. And he got that money from a team he had no allegiance to with ufa market soon available. 

 

I still believe Miller will be the better player through the term than Horvat. Goal scoring tends to decline with age quicker than playmaking ability. Bo is a shooter. Miller is both a shooter and a good playmaker. The most I would have offered Bo prior to this season is $7m and I wouldn't have viewed that as a team friendly deal. Given Miller's previous production, and coming off a 99 pt season, he would have easily gotten 9m+ if he was two years younger. Tavares got 7x 11m at 27 and never had a 90+ pt season. But he was younger and had a history of high production. 

 

I get that we drafted Bo and he's really likeable. But that doesn't mean he's worth more money.

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, higgyfan said:

Bo worked very hard in the offseason to improve his offence and clearly it had a big effect on his game. 

He may not be able to sustain his current rate of scoring, but it wouldn't surprise if he continues to

have much better results than before this season; although he did have 31 goals the year before.

 

I think some fans have a hate on for Bo because he chose to leave Vancouver.  The way I see it, Bo was

committed to +8 yrs of dreadful hockey with the Canucks and deserved the right to make a change. 

Quite frankly, along with the daily dealings of an obsessed media, only once playing in the playoffs

(albeit 'bubble hockey') and now seeing that the team is back to rebuilding/retooling;  I applaud his move.

 

 

The red flag on that for me is when asked about his increased goal scoring he gave the exact same answer as Kesler in the 10/11 season - I spent a lot of time shooting pucks in the offseason. Kesler said he was shooting hundreds and hundreds of pucks daily to iumprove his accuracy. That season at 26 Kesler scored 41 goals and tied Daniel for the team lead. He never scored 30 prior to that and never hit 30 after that season. So was Kesler's high scoring a one off purely as a result of heavy offseason shooting that he didn't continue in the offseasons afterwards? The upside was Kesler's high goal season came right after signing an extension rather than in a contract year. Will Bo continue to put in that amount shot practice into his offseasons now that he has his retirement deal? If not will his goal production fall back to his previous typical level? 

 

I'm not sold many, if anybody, has a "hate on" for Bo. Not viewing a player as worth the money he's seeking has little to do with hating. It's just the business side of life. Players come and go. 

[Baggins]

19 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

You went thru the original thread the 500+ pages to look? Prolly be a lot easier to just Google search and it’ll just pop up. Regardless of that.. you really believe bo was looking for millers money prior to the season start? Bo prolly was waiting for a fair offer the entire summer and they didn’t even bother negotiating with him at all until mid September until after miller was signed. They showed how much they wanted Horvat.. and no miller contract at the time have no effect on Horvat negotiation  if they were planning to re sign both. Unless you believe Horvat wants a matching contract of millers. They pretty much wasn’t planning on negotiating with Horvat until they sign miller. There’s no way Horvat or his agent was looking at more than kadri landeskog etc prior to the start of the season as comparable. After the start of the season and the pace he was on sure but prior? 

I'm smart enough to know I ddn't need to go through 500 pages. As his contract couldn't be extended until July first all I needed to do was find the posts starting at that point. I went through around 25 pages just looking for the embedded tweets. Found one claiming their opening offer was $5m and also found one saying Horvats camp was looking for around $7.7m. Through the summer I heard on several sports shows that Horvat was looking for "similar money" to what Miller signed for. I always take insider info and show talk blabber with a grain of salt. But why is one completely believable to you and not the other? You do seem to desperately defend Bo. Me, I don't really care. I'm used to players coming and going. Even the ones I like. We got a pretty decent return for Bo and I'm happy to move on.

 

Sure, the opening offer was $5m but they didn't negotiate at all after that until September. Sure, I believe that. 

[higgyfan]

6 minutes ago, Baggins said:

The red flag on that for me is when asked about his increased goal scoring he gave the exact same answer as Kesler in the 10/11 season - I spent a lot of time shooting pucks in the offseason. Kesler said he was shooting hundreds and hundreds of pucks daily to iumprove his accuracy. That season at 26 Kesler scored 41 goals and tied Daniel for the team lead. He never scored 30 prior to that and never hit 30 after that season. So was Kesler's high scoring a one off purely as a result of heavy offseason shooting that he didn't continue in the offseasons afterwards? The upside was Kesler's high goal season came right after signing an extension rather than in a contract year. Will Bo continue to put in that amount shot practice into his offseasons now that he has his retirement deal? If not will his goal production fall back to his previous typical level? 

Remains to be seen.

 

6 minutes ago, Baggins said:

 

I'm not sold many, if anybody, has a "hate on" for Bo. Not viewing a player as worth the money he's seeking has little to do with hating. It's just the business side of life. Players come and go. 

Bo is not just any player to Canuck fans.  We've watched him as a 19yr old kid, who grew up to become

the team's captain and spokesperson.  He was very well-loved by the fans who considered him a 'character

guy'.

 

I'm not talking about his contract; more about the fact that he chose to leave Vancouver and appears to

be very happy in so doing. 

[alt kilgore]

5 hours ago, higgyfan said:

Remains to be seen.

 

Bo is not just any player to Canuck fans.  We've watched him as a 19yr old kid, who grew up to become

the team's captain and spokesperson.  He was very well-loved by the fans who considered him a 'character

guy'.

 

I'm not talking about his contract; more about the fact that he chose to leave Vancouver and appears to

be very happy in so doing. 

 

Replace Bo with "Trevor" in your first paragraph,... it fits perfect.

 

When Linden was traded I remember that the sky was falling that day in Vancouver. At least many thought it was. But then the West Coast Express happened and the sky cleared up pretty fast.

 

I hope he is happy on Long Island. I could criticize his game past years, or for holding back until his contract year, but he deserves credit for slogging out his whole time here as captain under Jim (macaroni) Benning.  The merry go round of coaches, line mates. Always having to stand up to the mic and say how "the team has to play better next time" after the many losses. Hardly any playoff fun. I wish him nothing but success.

[IBatch]

On 2/16/2023 at 3:40 AM, wai_lai416 said:

i don't think any of the offer was anywhere even close to 7mil till like mid nov early december when he was already on his hot streak.. considering what they have been paying boeser on his bridge and what he just got now.. anything less than boeser is a joke and i would decline it too. boeser didn't earn his 5.8 cap hit on his previous contract nor his current 6.75 or whatever it's at.. and both are higher than horvat's current contract.. and i mean is he playing more offensive?? his shots attempt per game is almost identical to years past. he's just hitting the target more often.. horvat took the save gamble.. no matter what happens during the season there's no way he would get an offer in the UFA less than what JR offered him prior to the season start basically anything canucks were offering he can easily do better on the UFA i don't blame him for that they want him to take a good 20% less than market so they can continue overpaying anchors in other position. 

Horvat was overpaid himself for a couple years of his last deal ... and underpaid for 2.5 seasons, it was a fair deal.     Last year he earned 6.5 based on what he scored and his intangibles according to the stat wizard computer - and that a UFA year.    The debate was is he a first or is he a second line center all season long on the panel(s).   JR's final deal 7.5 x 7 wasn't enough, and warned the fans 3 separate times Horvat would be traded but they are working on signing him.   

 

As for his goals scoring.   It started when Bruce took over.   Last year he was having an underwhelming, less then 20 goal 50 point pace until Bruce took over, got hot and that hasn't stopped yet.   So the sample size is big enough to believe that should continue for a couple seasons - but if I had to bet, his shooting percentage won't keep up, the East will adjust etc and this is his career season.    Too long too much term, 7.5 x 7 was maybe low because some team might have offered 8.5 x 7.   Guess they wanted him to leave a little on the table.   But not much really.      In the end both Millers and Horvats deals will become typical UFA anchors.    At that price 80-85 points this year...next 78-83 and once cap goes up start going down further, I doubt either earns it.   And the Islanders will be rebuilding before half his deal is over.  
 

Edit: Millers current deal is an example of excellent value.    I wish our D was better and it made sense to re-sign him.   But our cap structure is flawed.   And we needed change.   I'm sure we draft a C with our first pick, and a lot of D's. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by IBatch