Horvat was taken for granted here

[Boudrias]

18 minutes ago, Alflives said:

What happened to Barzal? 

Early in the 1st period he took a hit/bump on the boards. He skated off under his own steam but went to the dressing room and did not return. 

Report was a lower body injury but no detail. 

Not sure what that means for our NYI 1st rdr pick. NYI are currently tied with 3 other teams in #15 spot. Tied with Pitt on the wild card. BUF, FLA , WAS, and Detroit all within striking distance. 

 

Lots of incentive for teams to make player moves before the TDL. 

[NHL97OneTimer]

3 hours ago, Ballisticsports. said:

Not only did we get those 3 assets

We also gave up paying $8+ million a year

All for losing Bo for 2 months (and more)

Now if only a similar plan would play out for Miller and Brock

[Baggins]

12 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

the only reason Miller is a better ROI right now because his contract covers part of his UFA years. but the only reason his contract covered part of his UFA years was he wasn't good when he started in the NHL and had to sign a 1 year minimum after his elc ended.. if horvat signed a 8 year contract instead? we would be talking about how great of a ROI horvat was.. 

 

again i don't disagree with moving horvat.. but moving horvat should have mean they moved Miller as well.. this team ain't competing anytime soon without horvat and keeping a miller.. we are going to have a miller past his prime before we even sniff the playoff.. sure horvat is not a great captain he's doesn't get into altercation with other teams.. but jumping into altercation being emotional etc doesn't = you ar ea great captain either.. if that's the case then a lot of the enforcers out there love to jump into altercation rough stuff and go after anyone that hits their star players i guess they are all great captain? Lucic would be captain material? C is just a letter on the jersey.. so you are telling me unless you have a C on your jersey no one on the team will listen to you? and i love your statement the team sucked with horvat.. so all the blame is on him? the team sucked with demko, the team sucked with EP, the team sucked with Hughes, the team sucked with miller. 

 

Seattle went from third worst team in the league last season to being in a dogfight for 1st in the Pacific this year. It's surprising the difference a few moves and a years experience for younger players can make from one season to the next. 

[Baggins]

38 minutes ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

Now if only a similar plan would play out for Miller and Brock

The only way I would move Miller is if the offer was just too good to turn down. He can score goals, is a good playmaker, pretty good defensively, and the most physical guy we have in our top six. Does he lose his temper from time to time? Sure. But at least he has some fire and his pros far outweigh his cons.

[shiznak]

23 hours ago, Baggins said:

Millers deal ends at 37, Horvat's at 36. So your math is off. But, and I've said it many times, goal scoring tends to drop off quicker in a players 30's than playmaking ablility. Miller is a good playmaker. I still believe Miller will be the better player into those mid 30's and now he costs less. There is actually no way to accurately predict a players decline. There are highly productive players right now that are 34+ in the league. Only time will tell. 

This doesn’t look like a guy who is “good” at playmaking. 
 

Meanwhile, the guy who isn’t a playmaker.

 

[UFCanuck]

Teams are going to be waiting on Karlsson and Meier to go first.

[bad alice french]

On 2/9/2023 at 8:54 PM, VegasCanuck said:

We don't need a rebuild, we need a redistribution of talent. We have enough talent on this team to compete, but we definitely do not have the right mix. Couple more trades and we'll be good for next season and we'll have a nice high pick this summer in a really deep draft

 

Hopefully 2-3 picks. 

[5nothincanucksohno]

15 hours ago, Baggins said:

The only way I would move Miller is if the offer was just too good to turn down. He can score goals, is a good playmaker, pretty good defensively, and the most physical guy we have in our top six. Does he lose his temper from time to time? Sure. But at least he has some fire and his pros far outweigh his cons.

But does he fit the general timeline of this current group though? He is a good NHL player but this team is young and Miller is 30 in March. Feels like cap flexibility over the next three years might be more useful to developing a more balanced team.

 

But if they can move out some dead weight elsewhere and distribute it to the defence and PK, then I would be happy with that as well.

Edited February 20, 2023 by 5nothincanucksohno

[-DLC-]

39 minutes ago, 5nothincanucksohno said:

But does he fit the general timeline of this current group though? He is a good NHL player but this team is young and Miller is 30 in March. Feels like cap flexibility over the next three years might be more useful to developing a more balanced team.

It's kind of ridiculous to me that people want ALL same age/young players on the team and are so quick to rule out "older" players for fear they'll fall apart. All teams have veterans who can carry the load when inexperience starts to factor in. It's a great way to wreck young players if the entire load is placed on their shoulders. The been there done that can really come into play in infusing some confidence in a room/on the bench. Take the reins stuff.

 

Besides, teams pick up older players for their playoffs runs....look at the Avs last year. Cogliano and Manson were added.

 

I do get that teams pushing/close are different than those far off and I understand consideration of the timeline....but our fanbase always thinks our team's a bust, doesn't make it so. We've made some changes and a few more are needed...but you don't have to start panicking about 5 years down the road and have that as the ONLY vision. What about the here and now and guys like Petey and Quinn (who matter too). They add something to the team that is worth also factoring in. We have some pretty good key components.

 

Miller is exactly what a team needs if/when they do get to the playoffs. "Might be more useful" key (your) words. We know what we have in Miller....what we bring back in is unknown. I think some of this team (Petey) needs stability for a bit...it's been a whirlwind of changes, weird circumstances, etc. The might be's aren't considered nearly enough when wanting to just ditch JT for....something unknown.

 

Also, this team needs more fire, not less. We have too few players who are willing to go.

 

I understand changes will be made and I accept that. But the argument that Miller doesn't fit the timeline is crap if you consider that all teams want/need experienced players and often the push AT playoff time is for those players who are picked up for a run. Sure, "rentals" but there's a reason they're in demand at times. Because they're still "good" and their experience is important.

 

I realize that it's short term based but my point is more that they ARE valuable players and that's why they can be in demand as teams do push for the playoffs. 

 

One thing that the "forecasters" here ignore is that the cap will also go up. Maybe not a huge amount next year, but over the next few years there will be increases.

 

So this age means a total breakdown isn't really proven anymore as players in their 30's aren't like 80 year olds. Far from it. People buy into a concept...words. It's easy to follow along but if you think about it, there is no surefire way to get there and it's a combination of things, not just a formula to follow that's guaranteed. You have groups of individuals and how they work together/what they bring is important. Not just a + b - c = success.

[-DLC-]

As for Bo being taken for granted...no one I know (who goes to games) took him for granted.

 

But, some hard moves DO need to be made and he wanted top $$ and got that. Good for him. And good for us because decisions were made and there was a limit put on how much we could offer him. I miss all the things he brought, but I also love that JT will go after someone who cheap shots Petey. That's a super important element.

 

Even though the refs intervened, two guys were tracking down Konecny....JT and Schenn. Lose those two and we're Charmin super soft. 

[Ghostsof1915]

On 2/11/2023 at 2:07 PM, shiznak said:

It depends on what moves the management would have made during the last off-season. Like I said, if they trade Miller for the rumoured deal with the Rangers, trade for Marino, and sign one of Kulak/Rutta/Lyubushkin. We would have been in a better position going into the season than what we currently have on defense.

There's no confirmation that was the trade offered. Only speculation. I've moved on from Benning trauma, and I don't assume Management is making nothing but bad moves still. They moved Bo. Let's just see what happens. Hopefully as the playoffs loom and it's tighter and tighter in the East. Someone will make some desperate moves.

[Ballisticsports.]

5 hours ago, -DLC- said:

It's kind of ridiculous to me that people want ALL same age/young players on the team and are so quick to rule out "older" players for fear they'll fall apart. All teams have veterans who can carry the load when inexperience starts to factor in. It's a great way to wreck young players if the entire load is placed on their shoulders. The been there done that can really come into play in infusing some confidence in a room/on the bench. Take the reins stuff.

 

Besides, teams pick up older players for their playoffs runs....look at the Avs last year. Cogliano and Manson were added.

 

I do get that teams pushing/close are different than those far off and I understand consideration of the timeline....but our fanbase always thinks our team's a bust, doesn't make it so. We've made some changes and a few more are needed...but you don't have to start panicking about 5 years down the road and have that as the ONLY vision. What about the here and now and guys like Petey and Quinn (who matter too). They add something to the team that is worth also factoring in. We have some pretty good key components.

 

Miller is exactly what a team needs if/when they do get to the playoffs. "Might be more useful" key (your) words. We know what we have in Miller....what we bring back in is unknown. I think some of this team (Petey) needs stability for a bit...it's been a whirlwind of changes, weird circumstances, etc. The might be's aren't considered nearly enough when wanting to just ditch JT for....something unknown.

 

Also, this team needs more fire, not less. We have too few players who are willing to go.

 

I understand changes will be made and I accept that. But the argument that Miller doesn't fit the timeline is crap if you consider that all teams want/need experienced players and often the push AT playoff time is for those players who are picked up for a run. Sure, "rentals" but there's a reason they're in demand at times. Because they're still "good" and their experience is important.

 

I realize that it's short term based but my point is more that they ARE valuable players and that's why they can be in demand as teams do push for the playoffs. 

 

One thing that the "forecasters" here ignore is that the cap will also go up. Maybe not a huge amount next year, but over the next few years there will be increases.

 

So this age means a total breakdown isn't really proven anymore as players in their 30's aren't like 80 year olds. Far from it. People buy into a concept...words. It's easy to follow along but if you think about it, there is no surefire way to get there and it's a combination of things, not just a formula to follow that's guaranteed. You have groups of individuals and how they work together/what they bring is important. Not just a + b - c = success.

I agree Miller would be nice in the playoffs,

I think what some are saying is that if we won't be a strong contender for 4+ years, that it would be better to trade Miller now and then re-acquire Miller from a team later with getting retention $ on his $8 million in 4 yrs. time, instead of paying him that  $8 million continuously for 8 yrs, and take the assets they can get for trading him now?

 

I don't think he will be moved unless a terrific offer came up, so i think Miller is here to stay

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Ballisticsports.

[86Viking]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:07 PM, Dazzle said:

 

 

We did Horvat dirty.

How so...we offered him a long term deal in the summer he refused to sign it to remain the team Captain long term. HOBO has eclipsed 60pts in 1 season prior to this one and it was last year, to all of a sudden say here is a blank cheque just to keep HOBO would have been a terrible mistake. Did we get the best return, jury will be out on that a while, no RHD came back so that was a bummer, hoping Raty can turn into a Koivu for us at some point and the 1st round pick, well we don't even know what year it is in so that is a few years away from helping unless we move it at the draft for immediate help like a RHD similar to the Romanov trade by NYI I suppose.

 

Canucks gave HOBO the C, paid him over 35m to play hockey here and he still chose to leave, likely to get away from the media and a chance to try and play playoff hockey as that never really happened with him here. So I am fine with HOBO leaving, he will be missed but we achieved nothing with him here and the GM made a choice to sign JT first and with JTs prior years of ppg or better scoring since arriving here it was the safer chose regardless of JT being slightly older than HOBO.

 

Time for everyone to move on, HOBO made his bed and its now with the NYI for up to 8 more years and 5 months. HOBO chose the long term $$$ NYI offered him, its a business at the end of the day but in no way has HOBO proven to be a 8.5m player on a 8yr term I don't care what HOBO fanatic out there tells me otherwise...

[Fred65]

11 minutes ago, Neutral said:

How so...we offered him a long term deal in the summer he refused to sign it to remain the team Captain long term. HOBO has eclipsed 60pts in 1 season prior to this one and it was last year, to all of a sudden say here is a blank cheque just to keep HOBO would have been a terrible mistake. Did we get the best return, jury will be out on that a while, no RHD came back so that was a bummer, hoping Raty can turn into a Koivu for us at some point and the 1st round pick, well we don't even know what year it is in so that is a few years away from helping unless we move it at the draft for immediate help like a RHD similar to the Romanov trade by NYI I suppose.

 

Canucks gave HOBO the C, paid him over 35m to play hockey here and he still chose to leave, likely to get away from the media and a chance to try and play playoff hockey as that never really happened with him here. So I am fine with HOBO leaving, he will be missed but we achieved nothing with him here and the GM made a choice to sign JT first and with JTs prior years of ppg or better scoring since arriving here it was the safer chose regardless of JT being slightly older than HOBO.

 

Time for everyone to move on, HOBO made his bed and its now with the NYI for up to 8 more years and 5 months. HOBO chose the long term $$$ NYI offered him, its a business at the end of the day but in no way has HOBO proven to be a 8.5m player on a 8yr term I don't care what HOBO fanatic out there tells me otherwise...

The bad news for Vcr is the fact that Barzel is likely out for the season. Which mean it's unlikely we get  their draft pick this year. As to Horvat what particularlyupseet me was althoough he put up this seaason where was that game in the last few years. It's always surprising how player can turn it on in their contract year and expected to bepaid on those stats rather than their previous mediocre years

Edited February 20, 2023 by Fred65

[Alflives]

Just now, Fred65 said:

The bad news for Vcr is the fact that Barzel is likely out for the season. Which mean it's unlikely we get  their draft pick this year

I think the Islanders still have several very good players to carry them though. Great goalie. Good D. These combined with an excellent defensive minded system should get them 10 -15 from the bottom.  Brock Nelson is their best forward. 

[Fred65]

Just now, Alflives said:

I think the Islanders still have several very good players to carry them though. Great goalie. Good D. These combined with an excellent defensive minded system should get them 10 -15 from the bottom.  Brock Nelson is their best forward. 

In Alf I trust lets keep our fingers crossed

[NHL97OneTimer]

On 2/19/2023 at 4:45 PM, Baggins said:

The only way I would move Miller is if the offer was just too good to turn down. He can score goals, is a good playmaker, pretty good defensively, and the most physical guy we have in our top six. Does he lose his temper from time to time? Sure. But at least he has some fire and his pros far outweigh his cons.

I don't dislike Miller.  Quite the opposite actually.  I just want to see a proper rebuild and keeping him doesn't fit this picture.  Also, being free from his salary would help us weaponize cap space which could turn into picks or prospects.  If Miller could fetch a similar return as Horvat, I'd be all in.  But I agree with you if the return is poor.....we're better off keeping him.  Either way, we won't be happy with his salary in 4-5 years time.

[5nothincanucksohno]

11 hours ago, -DLC- said:

It's kind of ridiculous to me that people want ALL same age/young players on the team and are so quick to rule out "older" players for fear they'll fall apart. All teams have veterans who can carry the load when inexperience starts to factor in. It's a great way to wreck young players if the entire load is placed on their shoulders. The been there done that can really come into play in infusing some confidence in a room/on the bench. Take the reins stuff.

 

Besides, teams pick up older players for their playoffs runs....look at the Avs last year. Cogliano and Manson were added.

 

I do get that teams pushing/close are different than those far off and I understand consideration of the timeline....but our fanbase always thinks our team's a bust, doesn't make it so. We've made some changes and a few more are needed...but you don't have to start panicking about 5 years down the road and have that as the ONLY vision. What about the here and now and guys like Petey and Quinn (who matter too). They add something to the team that is worth also factoring in. We have some pretty good key components.

 

Miller is exactly what a team needs if/when they do get to the playoffs. "Might be more useful" key (your) words. We know what we have in Miller....what we bring back in is unknown. I think some of this team (Petey) needs stability for a bit...it's been a whirlwind of changes, weird circumstances, etc. The might be's aren't considered nearly enough when wanting to just ditch JT for....something unknown.

 

Also, this team needs more fire, not less. We have too few players who are willing to go.

 

I understand changes will be made and I accept that. But the argument that Miller doesn't fit the timeline is crap if you consider that all teams want/need experienced players and often the push AT playoff time is for those players who are picked up for a run. Sure, "rentals" but there's a reason they're in demand at times. Because they're still "good" and their experience is important.

 

I realize that it's short term based but my point is more that they ARE valuable players and that's why they can be in demand as teams do push for the playoffs. 

 

One thing that the "forecasters" here ignore is that the cap will also go up. Maybe not a huge amount next year, but over the next few years there will be increases.

 

So this age means a total breakdown isn't really proven anymore as players in their 30's aren't like 80 year olds. Far from it. People buy into a concept...words. It's easy to follow along but if you think about it, there is no surefire way to get there and it's a combination of things, not just a formula to follow that's guaranteed. You have groups of individuals and how they work together/what they bring is important. Not just a + b - c = success.

Nothing against older players but if Miller ends up being the most valuable option to acquire some assets and free up some cap flexibility then mgmt has to take it. 

 

If they can move Boeser, Myers, etc. without losing too many assets and retaining too much cap then maybe that is the cap flexibility right their. Not sure that option is actually open.

 

Mgmt could blow all expectations away but the the most realistic outcome is that this team is Cup ready 3 - 5 years from now (i.e. hopefully the team builds momentum over the next three and is ready to challenge). The "vets" are going to be EP, QH, etc. The balance of ages injected into the lineup will be the youth and prospects developed in Abby. There will likely be the odd vet UFA added or traded for as well. 

 

End of the day, if Miller stays, I hope he delivers and this team is successful again.

 

[Ghostsof1915]

5 hours ago, Fred65 said:

The bad news for Vcr is the fact that Barzel is likely out for the season. Which mean it's unlikely we get  their draft pick this year. As to Horvat what particularlyupseet me was althoough he put up this seaason where was that game in the last few years. It's always surprising how player can turn it on in their contract year and expected to bepaid on those stats rather than their previous mediocre years

What if the Canucks trade Schenn and Miller for Dobson and a 2024 2nd rounder?

[Sativika]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:17 PM, Locke Lamora said:

Shipping Horvat out will go down as one of the more memorable Canuck blunders.

Uh....erm.....Were you around during the late '90s fiasco? The Messier/Keenan era of doom and gloom? To me that blunder hurt way more than anything the present management has done.

 

The post '94 Stanley Cup run had a plethora of beloved Horvat+ type players from that team traded away by that regime. Including Trevor Linden! And Captain Kirk, Gino, to name a few. And to bring in the coach and captain of the Rangers team that defeated us in that SC run....that just hurt so bad. Well.....it's history now and if you or anyone too young to know about this dreadful time in Canucks history....look it up. Or as some of you say....Google it!

 

Ah well. Life goes on. Change sucks and when it comes to our hockey team, it makes it seem doubly sucky! But honestly, I don't miss BoHo, and I don't miss Bruce. We're on a different path now with new management, coaches and players. More changes yet to come to be sure, but still nothing compared to what I previously mentioned.Oh yea.....

 

As far as BoHo taken for granted? Aren't all player? Aren't all coaches? Aren't all president/GM's? Yea, Boho got his own chant on the Isle and not here. But Isles fans got there man and thay loved it. Just as we, "Bruce. There it is!" No different.