Horvat was taken for granted here

[shiznak]

Say what you want about his contract now, but he earned that paycheck with the season he’s having.
 

There was no way he was asking for 8m+ in the off-season. It would have been closer to the 7m-7.5m range. That’s where management screwed up on. Horvat should have been the team’s top priority going into last off-season. Instead they signed other winger without moving out a contract and then extending a player that didn’t really fit the team’s direction. All that money could have allocated into Bo’s new contract and fixing the defensive core. 
 

Now, this franchise is stuck in no man’s land. Not bad enough to get a lottery pick (unless a miracle happens), and not good enough to make a deep playoff run. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by shiznak

[spook007]

32 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Say what you want about his contract now, but he earned that paycheck with the season he’s having.
 

There was no way he was asking for 8m+ in the off-season. It would have been closer to the 7m-7.5m range. That’s where management screwed up on. Horvat should have been the team’s top priority going into last off-season. Instead they signed other winger without moving out a contract and then extending a player that didn’t really fit the team’s direction. All that money could have allocated into Bo’s new contract and fixing the defensive core. 
 

Now, this franchise is stuck in no man’s land. Not bad enough to get a lottery pick (unless a miracle happens), and not good enough to make a deep playoff run. 

This franchise was stuck in no mans land prior to Bos departure...

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Don't think he asked to be traded. When he and his agent refused the Canucks final offer. They were playing chicken. The Canucks could not afford to have him

walk for nothing so they traded him. It was the only logical choice if couldn't get a deal done.

Horvat said the right things.   Said all of them.  And said it all again at the all-Star game and in NYI.    They were given a large, fair offer - something like 7.25-7.5 x 7.   And JR mentioned at least 3 times, to the public, that they'd try and sign Horvat, but they would trade him if at or near the TDL IF he wouldn't sign their best off which was very fair.   Miller did leave money on the table for what he managed last year.   He was paid for the 3 years of work, he put in, 217 points in 202 games.    Playing the first line.     Horvat's camp just signed a bigger deal.    If he truly wanted to be a Canuck, he could have circled back this summer.    Instead he took the deal he knew nobody else would offer him this summer.   Before one game was played.   The optics's aren't great with "I thought I'd be a Canuck for life"  ... good grief he was given a deal he'd likely have a tough time with later on.   Never heard Lou say anything like that before.   Look what he signed Dobson for.    That's the difference between RFA and UFA.   Horvats cap hit wasn't great several of his RFA years.   Just ok.   Last year, his best prior to this one, he played like a 6.5 million player according to the math wizards that figure this stuff out.  

Edited February 11, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

25 minutes ago, spook007 said:

This franchise was stuck in no mans land prior to Bos departure...

Hard to create change doing the same thing over and over again.   Sucks that it was Horvat, but after years of complaining about letting assets go for nothing JR did exactly what he said he'd do.   Try and sign Horvat, but wasn't biting on a one year thing.   He didn't bite on Millers either.    Go back and see what the CDC "experts" predicted Miller would cost to sign ... and well it was less both in cap hit and term.     Would have been great to have kept Horvat at a fair or reasonable price.   And do "major" surgery somewhere else.   But have to actually use an asset that teams want and Horvat lead the list.    We did fine for a rental and stoked we didn't dish out that much money.   EPs contract is up soon.   

 

The fanbase was more than prepped this could be coming too.  

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, shiznak said:

Say what you want about his contract now, but he earned that paycheck with the season he’s having.
 

There was no way he was asking for 8m+ in the off-season. It would have been closer to the 7m-7.5m range. That’s where management screwed up on. Horvat should have been the team’s top priority going into last off-season. Instead they signed other winger without moving out a contract and then extending a player that didn’t really fit the team’s direction. All that money could have allocated into Bo’s new contract and fixing the defensive core. 
 

Now, this franchise is stuck in no man’s land. Not bad enough to get a lottery pick (unless a miracle happens), and not good enough to make a deep playoff run. 

Miller for sure was a tank commander earlier this season but has tightened up his game even before the coaching change.   Don't think we are better with Miller now or worse with Horvat.    Once you factor in the contracts it's really six dozen on half of the other.   With the exception we saved .500k in cap, and Miller's averaging close to or over a PPG now four years in a row, Horvat first time in his career.     It's pretty much a wash for me.    One guy wanted to be a Canuck, and took less money so Horvat could sign.   Does anyone really think we just let a 50 goal scorer go?   I sure don't.   The biggest difference is Horvats game is better suited for later on in his contract to move down the lineup.   Where Miller would need to make some big adjustments to get there.   Can't say for sure he can't manage that - i've seen plenty of guys with his skill sets do it before.   Miller has been a line driver.   Horvat isn't exactly a defensive wizard.   Amazing in the dot though ... Miller is also pretty good in that regard. 

[spook007]

11 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Hard to create change doing the same thing over and over again.   Sucks that it was Horvat, but after years of complaining about letting assets go for nothing JR did exactly what he said he'd do.   Try and sign Horvat, but wasn't biting on a one year thing.   He didn't bite on Millers either.    Go back and see what the CDC "experts" predicted Miller would cost to sign ... and well it was less both in cap hit and term.     Would have been great to have kept Horvat at a fair or reasonable price.   And do "major" surgery somewhere else.   But have to actually use an asset that teams want and Horvat lead the list.    We did fine for a rental and stoked we didn't dish out that much money.   EPs contract is up soon.   

 

The fanbase was more than prepped this could be coming too.  

Spot on...

 

This team was going nowhere, and to spend all the money, on what has already shown not to be good enough, wasn't really an option...

Horvat leaving was always on the cards, once Miller was signed. 

 

We need to sign EP, and Kuz will also command more in a couple of years, and we have a mountain to climb defensively... 

 

Management came in without any feelings/loyalty towards any of the players, and they could see things needed to be shaken up... 

How it will go is anybody's guess, but at least they have started to change it around.

 

Hopefully a lot more to come, over the next year and a bit....

[IBatch]

9 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Spot on...

 

This team was going nowhere, and to spend all the money, on what has already shown not to be good enough, wasn't really an option...

Horvat leaving was always on the cards, once Miller was signed. 

 

We need to sign EP, and Kuz will also command more in a couple of years, and we have a mountain to climb defensively... 

 

Management came in without any feelings/loyalty towards any of the players, and they could see things needed to be shaken up... 

How it will go is anybody's guess, but at least they have started to change it around.

 

Hopefully a lot more to come, over the next year and a bit....

You bet Spook.   Get why some fans aren't happy about this.   And for sure it doesn't need to be Miller versus Horvat. Last year Bruce had these guys willing but even the there was hints that management was patient enough to see what was real.    They did make comments about how they tried but couldn't get any action to change up the D-core this summer.    Dallas paid their first rounder to get one prospect in Lundkqvist...imagine the CDC if we did that after not taking the Miller deal lol.   We already have Rathbone too.   And QHs.   Don't need another small D.  

 

It's going to take several years to fix.   Even without flat cap JR and Allvin have their hands full.    They got the coach they wanted.   Bruce - well he's been on both sides of how that turned out.  

 

Didn't like losing Walker - felt he was part of the Bruce bump.   Maybe Shaw was too.   That said ... have to say there is absolutely zero reason not to like Tochett, Foote and Gonchar on the staff.   

 

Growing up when the league was loaded with power forwards - Messier, Tochett, Neely, Shanny, Kevin Stevens, Corson,  Kerr, Roberts and probably another dozen guys that should be mentioned... well we've got a doozy in Tochett.    Miller won't get away with his stuff.   The biggest surprise for me is learning how much the PIT players respected and loved the guy.    

 

Foote well he was the Kevin Lowe of the COL Av championship teams.    Gonchar was the best offensive D of his generation.    Not that the competition was that steep aside from Lidstrom still doing his thing.    Another winner.    Having all these champions coaching our team can't hurt.    Trading Horvat was a pivot moment.   So is not trading for a better goalie.   

[GhostsOf1994]

On 2/10/2023 at 9:56 AM, Dazzle said:

Huh? I was never proven wrong with the math.

 

A few posters made some very disingenuous math observations that you didn't even bother to fact check. I maintained that Horvat had improved every year. The points increased, but the games played decrease.

 

This forum is ridiculous.

Not sure if you moon light as wailai or not? 

 

that was my reply to his math, not yours. 

 

Yes, his stats have gotten better each year. is he better than Petey or Miller? didnt think so.

 

remember all the work horvat had to do to get his skating up to standard?

 

remember him working on his shot? 

 

remember when people were screaming as horvat had no wingers to play with?

 

so management got him Pearson & Toffoli and how did he do? 

 

What's horvats career best in assists ? does that scream elite C who passes the puck and makes his line mates better? y"know like a top 6 C does?

 

assists last 4 years

Petey 224gp 125a

Miller 254gp 172a

Horvat 247gp 96a (surprisingly low eh?)

 

It's almost as if he's better as a winger with excellent face off skills?

 

oh wait.. during that time period Horvat had many of the same linemates or was on the same line as Miller Or Petey.

 

why? if hes such an elite top 6 C he should be carrying his line, no?

 

sure screams 8.5m C for 8 years.

[MattWN.]

8 hours ago, shiznak said:

Say what you want about his contract now, but he earned that paycheck with the season he’s having.
 

There was no way he was asking for 8m+ in the off-season. It would have been closer to the 7m-7.5m range. That’s where management screwed up on. Horvat should have been the team’s top priority going into last off-season. Instead they signed other winger without moving out a contract and then extending a player that didn’t really fit the team’s direction. All that money could have allocated into Bo’s new contract and fixing the defensive core. 
 

Now, this franchise is stuck in no man’s land. Not bad enough to get a lottery pick (unless a miracle happens), and not good enough to make a deep playoff run. 

 

Regardless of having Bo or not, this team was going to be in no man's land regardless.

 

Sure he earned his money, but so did OEL. How did that turn out? 

 

Bo has been at the helm of this team for the better part of 10 years, and that tenure has been full of fractured locker rooms and country club vibes. Regardless of the on ice record (which has been terrible) it's the captains job to lead the room, and he hasn't done that. Time for change.

[MattWN.]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

Miller for sure was a tank commander earlier this season but has tightened up his game even before the coaching change.   Don't think we are better with Miller now or worse with Horvat.    Once you factor in the contracts it's really six dozen on half of the other.   With the exception we saved .500k in cap, and Miller's averaging close to or over a PPG now four years in a row, Horvat first time in his career.     It's pretty much a wash for me.    One guy wanted to be a Canuck, and took less money so Horvat could sign.   Does anyone really think we just let a 50 goal scorer go?   I sure don't.   The biggest difference is Horvats game is better suited for later on in his contract to move down the lineup.   Where Miller would need to make some big adjustments to get there.   Can't say for sure he can't manage that - i've seen plenty of guys with his skill sets do it before.   Miller has been a line driver.   Horvat isn't exactly a defensive wizard.   Amazing in the dot though ... Miller is also pretty good in that regard. 

Horvat is also incapable of using his linemates, it's why over 1/3 of his points are coming on the powerplay, and despite his 57 points, only 15 of those are even strength assists, and only 6 of those 15 are first assists. 

 

Then you look at his shooting percentage.. 

2018-19 - 12.4%

2019-20 - 11.9%

2020-21 - 14.5%

2021-22 - 16%.

2022-23 - 21.6%

That's a massive outlier. You can expect that number to come back down. 

[DS4quality]

I like Bo he got his payday. Good for him

Edited February 11, 2023 by DS4quality

[spook007]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

You bet Spook.   Get why some fans aren't happy about this.   And for sure it doesn't need to be Miller versus Horvat. Last year Bruce had these guys willing but even the there was hints that management was patient enough to see what was real.    They did make comments about how they tried but couldn't get any action to change up the D-core this summer.    Dallas paid their first rounder to get one prospect in Lundkqvist...imagine the CDC if we did that after not taking the Miller deal lol.   We already have Rathbone too.   And QHs.   Don't need another small D.  

 

It's going to take several years to fix.   Even without flat cap JR and Allvin have their hands full.    They got the coach they wanted.   Bruce - well he's been on both sides of how that turned out.  

 

Didn't like losing Walker - felt he was part of the Bruce bump.   Maybe Shaw was too.   That said ... have to say there is absolutely zero reason not to like Tochett, Foote and Gonchar on the staff.   

 

Growing up when the league was loaded with power forwards - Messier, Tochett, Neely, Shanny, Kevin Stevens, Corson,  Kerr, Roberts and probably another dozen guys that should be mentioned... well we've got a doozy in Tochett.    Miller won't get away with his stuff.   The biggest surprise for me is learning how much the PIT players respected and loved the guy.    

 

Foote well he was the Kevin Lowe of the COL Av championship teams.    Gonchar was the best offensive D of his generation.    Not that the competition was that steep aside from Lidstrom still doing his thing.    Another winner.    Having all these champions coaching our team can't hurt.    Trading Horvat was a pivot moment.   So is not trading for a better goalie.   

Spot on amigo. 
enough of smurfs on the D side. No disrespect on Rathbone, but he has burnt every time, he had the opportunity, defensively. We need Dmen that can defend and not the seven dwarfs type. 
 

And yes there is a better than average chance, that under the guidance of a bunch of former chamipons, players will be held accountable now, 

 

Finally riding it out with 2 back up goalie, is very yelling indeed. Hopefully Demko stays down a bit longer, as the last thing we need now, is going on a tear...

[MattWN.]

4 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Spot on amigo. 
enough of smurfs on the D side. No disrespect on Rathbone, but he has burnt every time, he had the opportunity, defensively. We need Dmen that can defend and not the seven dwarfs type. 
 

And yes there is a better than average chance, that under the guidance of a bunch of former chamipons, players will be held accountable now, 

 

Finally riding it out with 2 back up goalie, is very yelling indeed. Hopefully Demko stays down a bit longer, as the last thing we need now, is going on a tear...

It's tradition though.

[TGT68]

My only issue is we didn't sell high on Miller and then deal with Horvat. Not saying I would not have sold on horvat as well, just saying paying Miller was the actual mistake.  

 

 

[MattWN.]

Just now, TGT68 said:

My only issue is we didn't sell high on Miller and then deal with Horvat. Not saying I would not have sold on horvat as well, just saying paying Miller was the actual mistake.  

 

 

Yes, in a perfect world we would have moved both for future assets. I would have loved to see this team stripped to the bone, minus a couple.

[spook007]

17 minutes ago, MattWN. said:

It's tradition though.

 Yes unfortunately ...

Edited February 11, 2023 by spook007

[Doxm]

Nah. 

 

I'll take Beau + Raty + a 1st all day everyday. 

[shiznak]

3 hours ago, MattWN. said:

 

Regardless of having Bo or not, this team was going to be in no man's land regardless.

 

Sure he earned his money, but so did OEL. How did that turn out? 

 

Bo has been at the helm of this team for the better part of 10 years, and that tenure has been full of fractured locker rooms and country club vibes. Regardless of the on ice record (which has been terrible) it's the captains job to lead the room, and he hasn't done that. Time for change.

It depends on what moves the management would have made during the last off-season. Like I said, if they trade Miller for the rumoured deal with the Rangers, trade for Marino, and sign one of Kulak/Rutta/Lyubushkin. We would have been in a better position going into the season than what we currently have on defense.

Edited February 11, 2023 by shiznak

[shiznak]

3 hours ago, MattWN. said:

Horvat is also incapable of using his linemates, it's why over 1/3 of his points are coming on the powerplay, and despite his 57 points, only 15 of those are even strength assists, and only 6 of those 15 are first assists. 

 

Then you look at his shooting percentage.. 

2018-19 - 12.4%

2019-20 - 11.9%

2020-21 - 14.5%

2021-22 - 16%.

2022-23 - 21.6%

That's a massive outlier. You can expect that number to come back down. 

Bo was 2nd on the team in xGF/60 and 3rd in SCF/60, at even strength. This belief that he gets most of his points off the powerplay is simply not true. Out of the first unit PP group, he’s 3rd in the unit in PPP. 
 

Also I don’t think you understand what Bo’s role was on the PP. As a bumper role, he’s literally there to open up passing lanes, get deflections, and get open for the one-timer in the slot. Hard to get an assist when you barely touch the puck on the PP.

Edited February 11, 2023 by shiznak

[Coconuts]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:09 AM, Darius said:

IMO 2011 was lost because of injuries and Luongo's inability to steal a game in Boston.  The supposed gentlemanly play of Bo's predecessors was good enough to eliminate 3 other teams wasnt it?  It was good enough to lead the team to the top of the standings more than once. 

 

Bo wasnt the problem here.  The attrocious D core, AHL goaltending, lack of shutdown forwards are the problem.

 

I get it, people need someone to blame and when the team is bad  so his supposed deficiencies are magnified.  Take Linden as an example.  You claim he was a great leader, and I agree.  But when the team started going south in 1995 people started to blame him.  He wasnt tough enough. He wasnt a good leader. . Same things we are seeing regarding Bo today.

 

Look at some posts (few examples out of many) from 1995 and 1996 from the internet Canucks forum (before CDC existed) regarding Linden...sound familiar?:

 

1995

"How many people are like me and are sick and tired of watching the captain of our hockey club fall to the ice and cover up at the slightest hint of provocation? Name one other captain of an NHL club who won't drop the gloves. There are many former winners of the Lady Bing that have more intestinal fortitude than our glorious captain. (Makita comes to mind) Don't get me wrong, I admire Trevor, but there are certain responsibilties involved in wearing the `C'. First and foremost you must lead. Lead in the dressing room, lead on the ice and lead into battle. Let's face it, any team whose back-up goaltender has more fighting majors than their leader is destined for the cellar."

--

"Agreed - what a friggin wuss! That's why I'd trade Linden in a second for Tkachuk from Wpg. Although the Jets would be stupid to do that!"

----

1996

"I watched in disgust as Claude Lemieux slapped him [Linden] around like a little scared boy, and virtually spit in his face. What made this fiasco even worse was that I was watching the game with a crazed Claude Lemieux fan, who laughed at me a spit on me for being a Canuck fan. I had to spit back at him to get even, vulgarity. A real power foward is fearless and backs down from nobody. Linden consistently cowers from creeps like Claude Lemieux,and tough guys, especially Manson. From these observations, I conclude that Trevor Linden is not a power forward."

---

"I agree that Linden's unwillingness to fight is too craven, at times. But that's him. othing will make him change and nobody should try. The league is full of guys who won't fight. The Canucks have more than their share and it causes them to degrade their performance at critical times."

----

 

 

The more things change the more they stay the same 

 

You're always going to get fans whining about whoever is captain for the same reasons 

 

Linden, Naslund, Luongo, Henrik, Bo, and on and on

 

All the captaincy does in this market is paint a larger target on a guy's back 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Coconuts