Jim Benning

[AK_19]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

It’s fact Inga Hammerstrom was the one with eyes on Petey. Benning wanted Glass, but was overruled by Linden, who (after the OJ disaster, where Benning overruled his scouts) insisted the scouts choice is what the club will go with. 

And be aware that anyone of the guys in that draft meeting (where the list is made) who speaks out publicly - on the record - about what went on in that room will never get another job in the league. So, the reporting on what happened, from guys like 

Drance, is done without naming a source. If the reporter named his source, he’d never get any more “insider” information. 

 

I mean most of this was rumour mongering. I suspect the Canucks themselves leaked that they wanted Glass because they were looking to actually grab Pettersson with a trade down with Vegas. Although I recognize that the information about the trade down was also a rumour. 

[AnthonyG]

7 hours ago, spook007 said:

Hmmm....

Get what you are saying, but Not entirely sure about that. Once Kraken or Vegas wins a cup, I may change my mind. 
Fact is nearly all cup winner the last 15 years have had a few top picks on them. 

The Cap issues are down to poor management of the cap and extremely poor construction of the teams. 
In Oiler country and Toronto they have gone for a lot of gun slingers, where they would be far better off spending more on the D side. 
Both team actually do have he piece to severely improve their D, but chooses not to use them. 
Imagine TO 2 years ago putting Nylander and/ or Marner into play for top pairing Ds

 

And Oilers could Maybe use Draiseitl as trade chip or similar, although I do agree, time is running out. 
 

Build from the net and out... we all know D takes longer, in general, than fwds so start with the D side when drafting instead of going fwds constantly ( hence I was after D at our drafting position last year). 

Regardless, while 10 really good players may do the trick, the real problem is to find 10 really good players. Free agency costs, and often doesn't work out well, and in trades you give to get, so that leaves drafting... and thats why sinking to the bottom in the first couple of years of a rebuild or recontruction of the team is an advantage. 

Yea top picks do help, which we havent really been fortunate enough to land a top 3 pick. My only concern with landing a McDavid or a Matthews, is the cost to keep them. You need to win in their ELC, otherwise you’re cap situation is f***ed. you look at top picks that have won a cup, it was either on an ELC, bridge deal or much later on when the cap caught up to the contracts. 
 

PITs first cup, Malkin was on an ELC, after Malkin signed, it took then 7 years or whatever it was to win again. They couldnt add to the roster for soooo long.

 

CHI won all their cups on ELC and bridge deals. Havent made playoffs since Kane and Toews signed their deals

 

The cap had to catch up to Ovi and Backstroms cap

 

 

Teams cant win in the early years of big contracts. So for that reason alone, I’m afraid of landing a huge draft pick and not winning early on and then hoping to win in their prime, while they sign a monster deal reduces the cap space you have to work with. Which is exactly what TOR and EDM have had to do with Matthews and McDavid, mind you they have also made some real boneheaded investments as well, such as Nurse 9.25, Tavares 11mil.

If Toronto was smart they would have moved Marner or Nylander for a #1 shut down dman, but instead they continue to try to outscore the problems, same as Edmonton.

 

IMO…. McDavid would be the best trade chip to move and build around Draisaitl. 
1) it frees up 12.5mil to spend on 2 very good players, gain picks and prospects insert youth into the system/lineup. Moving Draisaitl only frees you up 8.7mil to add a player to the roster.

 

 

I totally agree that there is a time and place for BPA. At some point you HAVE to start looking at organizational needs. Such as OJ in 2016, unfortunately health was an unforeseen issue.

 

I feel like we are very close to finding those 10 very good players.

Demko

Hughes

Pettersson

Kuzmenko

Miller

Boeser - better than people realize

Podkolzin - up and coming

Hoglander - up and coming

Klimovich - really heating up

Jurmo - doing well in europe

EP2 - showing promise

Karlsson - still has potential

 

 

Now that our NHL roster has a young stapled core for several years, our farm system has a chance to build and develop. Within the next 3 years, Vancouver will be one of the top 8 teams in the league. The rest of the league is quite old, time is ticking on VGK, WSH, PIT, BOS, NYI, CGY, EDM, TOR, DAL, WPG, NYR, etc.

LAK is also going to take some hits over the next few seasons. A lot of big name core players are over the hump and heading towards their inevitable decline, its a matter of when and how bad. Who is going to be ready to step up and take over and what are the growing pains going to be like.

 

Off the top of my head, the teams that are on the rise and going to be the top of the league will be 

VAN

DET

OTT

CAR

NJD

BUF

 

 

 

[UFCanuck]

Pettersson should have gone 1st overall. 

[Hockey God]

6 hours ago, iinatcc said:

to be fair he was basically 0.4 or 0.5 ppg d-man for some years so it's actually quite impressive.

 

As for being GM ... well one of the guys in Sportsnet 650 said he's the worst GM the Canucks ever had. While there maybe some regency bias it's a claim that has merit.

 

Benning has basically lost almost every deal he made. The only thing he can hang his hat on is drafting Demko, Pettersson and Hughes. So basically 3 players in 8 years. Woo Hoo.

Fully agree with points about him as a GM, but I tend to discount those player numbers a lot.  Played in an era where the Zamboni guy could have put up .4 or .5 per game if he played on the right team.

[Timråfan]

4 hours ago, spook007 said:

Cmon Timrå, You gotta make up your mind...

When its poor drafts it on Benning but wheb it is a good draft its on the scouts...

 

The pick of the 1st round falls on the GM good or bad.... whether its scouts or Danta that talks them up...

For me the Virtanen pick just amplifies that the GM isn’t a scout.

And Petey demonstrates that as a fact.

Benning would never had found him without Hammarström.

[spook007]

27 minutes ago, Alflives said:

It’s fact Inga Hammerstrom was the one with eyes on Petey. Benning wanted Glass, but was overruled by Linden, who (after the OJ disaster, where Benning overruled his scouts) insisted the scouts choice is what the club will go with. 

And be aware that anyone of the guys in that draft meeting (where the list is made) who speaks out publicly - on the record - about what went on in that room will never get another job in the league. So, the reporting on what happened, from guys like 

Drance, is done without naming a source. If the reporter named his source, he’d never get any more “insider” information. 

 

That may all be very true... but it doesn't change the fact, that the GM makes the 1st round pick, good or bad...

 

What is astonishing, is how hard folks work to discredit the few good things Benning did for this franchise... I could carer less, who told Benning he should draft Petey or QH. He was the one, who picked them both at the draft table...

 

Where is the evidence Benning over ruled his scouts regarding OJ? 

The pick was not out of the blue as you make it out to be... a lot of folks here on CDC was really high on OJ (mainly believing Tkachuk wouldn't be available), but in general the need to draft a Dman was a big then as it still is... so who exactly told Benning he should not draft OJ????

 

 

[spook007]

1 minute ago, Timråfan said:

For me the Virtanen pick just amplifies that the GM isn’t a scout.

And Petey demonstrates that as a fact.

Benning would never had found him without Hammarström.

Now if that was the case, half of the GMs don't have a clue and their scouts neither.

Benning could only cover so much, and despite what you say, he had enough save to accept Petey was the better player, and took him instead of the player 75% thought was going to be the better player... In the end he made the call.... Give him the credit he deserves...

[spook007]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Bear for a second.   Was actually a win as far as face value goes.   He played a lot more games than the average second rounder.   And well rentals for maybe 3 post season games go for that often enough.   

 

Problem with Benning is that they even took this direction at all (re-tool).    If he convinced ownership they needed to rebuild things would he different.   Hope Allvin and JR can.   

 

Edit:  Team needs to plan five years ahead.   We need a couple terrible seasons.    Unless we win the lottery (and even then), this is what happens when you put the cart before the horse.   Go nowhere.  We need 1000 game guys.   The best chance of that is picking top 1-3. 

Bingo....

We have a winner...

[Timråfan]

11 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Now if that was the case, half of the GMs don't have a clue and their scouts neither.

Benning could only cover so much, and despite what you say, he had enough save to accept Petey was the better player, and took him instead of the player 75% thought was going to be the better player... In the end he made the call.... Give him the credit he deserves...

I don’t have a problem giving him credit for picking Petey but the credit for getting his attention goes to Hammarström.

Delorme par example was pnly Bennings man he ”defends” in the organisation wich shows what kind of man he is.

Why not give credit to Hammarström? 
Benning was no good for the Canucks and hopefully the new management can bring a modern approach to the Canucks.

[MeanSeanBean]

59 minutes ago, UFCanuck said:

Pettersson should have gone 1st overall. 

If starting a team from scratch, I still take Makar over Petey. Both Centers and Defensemen are equally important pieces to build a team around. I have all the time in the world for Petey being a top 10 center, heck I might even have time for a conversation around top 5. But I have equal amounts of time for a conversation around Makar being the best defensemen in the league.

[Timråfan]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Yea top picks do help, which we havent really been fortunate enough to land a top 3 pick. My only concern with landing a McDavid or a Matthews, is the cost to keep them. You need to win in their ELC, otherwise you’re cap situation is f***ed. you look at top picks that have won a cup, it was either on an ELC, bridge deal or much later on when the cap caught up to the contracts. 
 

PITs first cup, Malkin was on an ELC, after Malkin signed, it took then 7 years or whatever it was to win again. They couldnt add to the roster for soooo long.

 

CHI won all their cups on ELC and bridge deals. Havent made playoffs since Kane and Toews signed their deals

 

The cap had to catch up to Ovi and Backstroms cap

 

 

Teams cant win in the early years of big contracts. So for that reason alone, I’m afraid of landing a huge draft pick and not winning early on and then hoping to win in their prime, while they sign a monster deal reduces the cap space you have to work with. Which is exactly what TOR and EDM have had to do with Matthews and McDavid, mind you they have also made some real boneheaded investments as well, such as Nurse 9.25, Tavares 11mil.

If Toronto was smart they would have moved Marner or Nylander for a #1 shut down dman, but instead they continue to try to outscore the problems, same as Edmonton.

 

IMO…. McDavid would be the best trade chip to move and build around Draisaitl. 
1) it frees up 12.5mil to spend on 2 very good players, gain picks and prospects insert youth into the system/lineup. Moving Draisaitl only frees you up 8.7mil to add a player to the roster.

 

 

I totally agree that there is a time and place for BPA. At some point you HAVE to start looking at organizational needs. Such as OJ in 2016, unfortunately health was an unforeseen issue.

 

I feel like we are very close to finding those 10 very good players.

Demko

Hughes

Pettersson

Kuzmenko

Miller

Boeser - better than people realize

Podkolzin - up and coming

Hoglander - up and coming

Klimovich - really heating up

Jurmo - doing well in europe

EP2 - showing promise

Karlsson - still has potential

 

 

Now that our NHL roster has a young stapled core for several years, our farm system has a chance to build and develop. Within the next 3 years, Vancouver will be one of the top 8 teams in the league. The rest of the league is quite old, time is ticking on VGK, WSH, PIT, BOS, NYI, CGY, EDM, TOR, DAL, WPG, NYR, etc.

LAK is also going to take some hits over the next few seasons. A lot of big name core players are over the hump and heading towards their inevitable decline, its a matter of when and how bad. Who is going to be ready to step up and take over and what are the growing pains going to be like.

 

Off the top of my head, the teams that are on the rise and going to be the top of the league will be 

VAN

DET

OTT

CAR

NJD

BUF

 

 

 

Where are Silovs?

[spook007]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Yea top picks do help, which we havent really been fortunate enough to land a top 3 pick. My only concern with landing a McDavid or a Matthews, is the cost to keep them. You need to win in their ELC, otherwise you’re cap situation is f***ed. you look at top picks that have won a cup, it was either on an ELC, bridge deal or much later on when the cap caught up to the contracts. 
 

PITs first cup, Malkin was on an ELC, after Malkin signed, it took then 7 years or whatever it was to win again. They couldnt add to the roster for soooo long.

 

CHI won all their cups on ELC and bridge deals. Havent made playoffs since Kane and Toews signed their deals

 

The cap had to catch up to Ovi and Backstroms cap

 

 

Teams cant win in the early years of big contracts. So for that reason alone, I’m afraid of landing a huge draft pick and not winning early on and then hoping to win in their prime, while they sign a monster deal reduces the cap space you have to work with. Which is exactly what TOR and EDM have had to do with Matthews and McDavid, mind you they have also made some real boneheaded investments as well, such as Nurse 9.25, Tavares 11mil.

If Toronto was smart they would have moved Marner or Nylander for a #1 shut down dman, but instead they continue to try to outscore the problems, same as Edmonton.

 

IMO…. McDavid would be the best trade chip to move and build around Draisaitl. 
1) it frees up 12.5mil to spend on 2 very good players, gain picks and prospects insert youth into the system/lineup. Moving Draisaitl only frees you up 8.7mil to add a player to the roster.

 

 

I totally agree that there is a time and place for BPA. At some point you HAVE to start looking at organizational needs. Such as OJ in 2016, unfortunately health was an unforeseen issue.

 

I feel like we are very close to finding those 10 very good players.

Demko

Hughes

Pettersson

Kuzmenko

Miller

Boeser - better than people realize

Podkolzin - up and coming

Hoglander - up and coming

Klimovich - really heating up

Jurmo - doing well in europe

EP2 - showing promise

Karlsson - still has potential

 

 

Now that our NHL roster has a young stapled core for several years, our farm system has a chance to build and develop. Within the next 3 years, Vancouver will be one of the top 8 teams in the league. The rest of the league is quite old, time is ticking on VGK, WSH, PIT, BOS, NYI, CGY, EDM, TOR, DAL, WPG, NYR, etc.

LAK is also going to take some hits over the next few seasons. A lot of big name core players are over the hump and heading towards their inevitable decline, its a matter of when and how bad. Who is going to be ready to step up and take over and what are the growing pains going to be like.

 

Off the top of my head, the teams that are on the rise and going to be the top of the league will be 

VAN

DET

OTT

CAR

NJD

BUF

 

 

 

Well I hope you are right about the bottom part about going to be top of the league 

 

And I think we say pretty much the same. 

If we could win the lottery now and draft Bedard (pipe dream, but...) then the next 3 years he will be on ELC. Maybe just maybe he'll sign an interim deal (unlikely) but even signing him for say 12M in 3 year would be covered by Brock and Garland...

 

But just now draft Bedard and then get 2 top D's for Myers and whom ever else we can dump, and just fill the spaces with 1-2M wingers

 

We could be competitive very quickly... Even the 2-4th pick could transfer this team. Imagine getting Michov over on ELC in 3 years... A Petey in his prime and a 21-22 year old generational; talent on an ELC together with Kuz QH and 2 top 4 defensive D-Men.

We would really be rocking.

It is true however, the longer it goes, the harder it is to find good supporting cast if you have a lot of money invested in your top players ...

Toronto should have done exactly as you said.

Oilers may have been able to hold on to both McD and Draisaitl but all the 5-6 supporting cast should be sold off to free cash for a top Dman or two...

We all know the saying offence win games, but D wins championships...

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

32 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

For me the Virtanen pick just amplifies that the GM isn’t a scout.

And Petey demonstrates that as a fact.

Benning would never had found him without Hammarström.

But Ron Delorme!

 

We had two picks in which to select the following guy:

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=116134

 

(a guy right in our backyard as he played for the Vancouver Giants but Delorme was in Sweden scouting )

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[AnthonyG]

3 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Where are Silovs?

Was just off the top of my head, but Silovs is another good prospect. Time will tell, but definitely looks good.

[spook007]

11 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

I don’t have a problem giving him credit for picking Petey but the credit for getting his attention goes to Hammarström.

Delorme par example was pnly Bennings man he ”defends” in the organisation wich shows what kind of man he is.

Why not give credit to Hammarström? 
Benning was no good for the Canucks and hopefully the new management can bring a modern approach to the Canucks.

The credit for his attention goes to Hammerstrōm, and I don't have an issue with that.

 

However, no mater how you cut or slice it, Benning called out Petey's name at the draft. Its as simple as that....

 

Benning had a lot of faults, but lets not change/forget history, just to make him look worse, than he was...

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 minute ago, spook007 said:

The credit for his attention goes to Hammerstrōm, and I don't have an issue with that.

 

However, no mater how you cut or slice it, Benning called out Petey's name at the draft. Its as simple as that....

 

Benning had a lot of faults, but lets not change/forget history, just to make him look worse, than he was...

Willie Desjardins & Travis Green.

[AnthonyG]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

My understanding was EPs draft their list was Makar then EP.  "That's a homerun" thumbs up with QHs.   Glad I wasn't picking kind of.   MT instead of OJ as BPA, Chychrun before any other D... Glass or Valardi instead of EP (why so far off board!!!) ... QHs agreed 100% with Burke "that's a small body gentlemen, a small body" ... Bouchard or Dobson.  Both RHDs.    One comment doesn't change the fact EP was drafted ahead of guys ahead of him on the ranking by a fair margin.   It was off board for 5th.  

 

Also i don't like how one good tournament should or does change the order so much.    OJ was a late first early second - moved up a little.   High floor low ceiling.   Terrible pick. 

 

Wasn't a fan of Keith.   Mostly because of the way he acted in 1998 and that he picked on Murzyn but avoided our tougher guys when in WNP.   Apple didn't fall far from the tree.   Things happen for a reason, but still the only time i've thrown the remote at a draft. 

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2016-draft/nhl-draft-rankings/
 

Most experts had OJ pretty much right where he went. So no it wasnt a terrible pick. Injuries derailed him. No ones fault

[spook007]

2 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

But Ron Delorme!

 

We had two picks in which to select the following guy:

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=116134

 

(a guy right in our backyard as he played for the Vancouver Giants but Delorme was in Sweden scouting )

 

 

He was drafted in 5th round...

Lets just assume he totally surprised every single scout in every single organisation, by turning into the player he became....

[NewbieCanuckFan]

2 minutes ago, spook007 said:

He was drafted in 5th round...

Lets just assume he totally surprised every single scout in every single organisation, by turning into the player he became....

As I said, we had two picks which we could've used to pick him (a 4th & 5th round pick).  Played for the Vancouver Giants.  Have to wonder who else (Delorme couldn't have been the only scout for us in Western Canada) dropped the ball on that one for us.  Hopefully they're scouting for some other team now.

Edited February 21, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[The Lock]

2 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Yea top picks do help, which we havent really been fortunate enough to land a top 3 pick. My only concern with landing a McDavid or a Matthews, is the cost to keep them. You need to win in their ELC, otherwise you’re cap situation is f***ed. you look at top picks that have won a cup, it was either on an ELC, bridge deal or much later on when the cap caught up to the contracts. 
 

PITs first cup, Malkin was on an ELC, after Malkin signed, it took then 7 years or whatever it was to win again. They couldnt add to the roster for soooo long.

 

CHI won all their cups on ELC and bridge deals. Havent made playoffs since Kane and Toews signed their deals

 

The cap had to catch up to Ovi and Backstroms cap

 

 

Teams cant win in the early years of big contracts. So for that reason alone, I’m afraid of landing a huge draft pick and not winning early on and then hoping to win in their prime, while they sign a monster deal reduces the cap space you have to work with. Which is exactly what TOR and EDM have had to do with Matthews and McDavid, mind you they have also made some real boneheaded investments as well, such as Nurse 9.25, Tavares 11mil.

If Toronto was smart they would have moved Marner or Nylander for a #1 shut down dman, but instead they continue to try to outscore the problems, same as Edmonton.

 

IMO…. McDavid would be the best trade chip to move and build around Draisaitl. 
1) it frees up 12.5mil to spend on 2 very good players, gain picks and prospects insert youth into the system/lineup. Moving Draisaitl only frees you up 8.7mil to add a player to the roster.

 

 

I totally agree that there is a time and place for BPA. At some point you HAVE to start looking at organizational needs. Such as OJ in 2016, unfortunately health was an unforeseen issue.

 

I feel like we are very close to finding those 10 very good players.

Demko

Hughes

Pettersson

Kuzmenko

Miller

Boeser - better than people realize

Podkolzin - up and coming

Hoglander - up and coming

Klimovich - really heating up

Jurmo - doing well in europe

EP2 - showing promise

Karlsson - still has potential

 

 

Now that our NHL roster has a young stapled core for several years, our farm system has a chance to build and develop. Within the next 3 years, Vancouver will be one of the top 8 teams in the league. The rest of the league is quite old, time is ticking on VGK, WSH, PIT, BOS, NYI, CGY, EDM, TOR, DAL, WPG, NYR, etc.

LAK is also going to take some hits over the next few seasons. A lot of big name core players are over the hump and heading towards their inevitable decline, its a matter of when and how bad. Who is going to be ready to step up and take over and what are the growing pains going to be like.

 

Off the top of my head, the teams that are on the rise and going to be the top of the league will be 

VAN

DET

OTT

CAR

NJD

BUF

I think the problem with this way of thinking is this (regarding the fear of early heavy contracts): if you fear success, you'll never be successful. You end up never taking the risks necessary to have a good team.

 

And sure, there will be times when you have to dish out the big bucks from being successful, but is that a bad thing? If you have pieces almost no other team has and would do almost anything to get, it means you don't have to trade for those pieces. It also means you can trade those pieces for a premium if your scenario did come to fruition and we get in a cap bind. For example, if Toronto trade Tavares, are they a bad team? Obviously, they'd take a hit, but they'd also have 10+mil in cap space suddenly while still having other good pieces. Is that a bad scenario? (edit: also before anyone goes "they're not trading Tavares", this is just an example. I know how pedantic people can get lol)

 

Like you've said, we're very close to getting a good core. The problem is we're not there yet and we've already had to trade one of our core. This may very well be a scenario of close but not close enough. Through the very same fear of losing players due to contracts, we're at that point but without a good team.

 

That being said, it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next 2 years. I'm almost fascinated to see what ends up happening, whether we do indeed do what's closer to a rebuild or whether we try and claw our way out through deals... or whether we just fall flat on our face and remain mediocre as, unfortunately, that's also a possibility.

Edited February 21, 2023 by The Lock