Jim Benning

[AnthonyG]

36 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

 

lol

 

BTW, its important to link to a source when you post stats. But I'll take your word for this.

So let me get this straight. Basing off of your chart, I can only assume its the same stats as the post you replied to. (games played by 3rd round picks or later)

 

In Bennings first SEVEN drafts

he had a whopping 662 games played by that group of prospects.

 

In the FOUR drafts you show for Gillis

he had 549 games played. 

 

Did I get that right?  So.....by your chart, Gillis had close to double the success as Benning.  

All while picking much lower by average than Benning, because of his winning records.

 

Oh......AND won a GM of the year, two Presidents Trophies, and one win away from a Cup.

 

 

 

 

Think of it this way.

549GP/11 = 49.9GP per season. that is what Gillis's 3rd round and beyond picks have averaged over 10 years. 

662/7 = 95.2GP per season from JB's 3rd round picks and beyond. We avg almost 100GP per season. Nearly DOUBLE Gillis's picks. 

Even if I included the 4 non-existent years of drafting for JB from 2010-2013, JB STILL has a higher avg gp

662/11= 60.18

 

 

[alt kilgore]

45 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Y

Hockeydb.com 

add the games played and subtract the differences for era's

 

You do realize Hutton was drafted 10 years ago right? That gives him a possible 246GP before JB has drafted a single player. Then after they are drafted, they wait another season or 2 before making the team, meanwhile thats another 2 seasons for a guy like Hutton to rack up GP. All because he was drafted waaaay before them. Gillis should be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY ahead on GP from his draft picks, but he isnt. Instead JBs guys who were recently drafted are already accumulating more GP than a 10-14 year career from guys first drafted by Gillis back in '08. Just going off of that stupid 2010 starting point, thats 3 years of GP that Benning doesnt have to his resume. So its a terrible chart to look at if you want to flex for Gillis or anyone from pre-2014 and their drafting producing more GP than guys who started their drafting in 2014+. If guys are drafting 2014+ and outdoing pre-2014 picks... Thats a mjaor red flag. It literally shows you how god damn f***ing bad our drafting was and THE REST OF THE LEAGUE WAS FINDING PLAYERS EXCEPT OUR GM MIKE GILLIS and a few other garbage organizations like Buffalo and Arizona the last decade. There is ZERO excuse for Gillis, if every other team between 2010-2013 that were also contenders and continual playoff teams, were able to draft and find talent waaay later in the rounds, HOW COME WE WERENT ABLE TO?!?!?!?!??!

 

 

 

Thats a lot of excuses, holy cow. For a stat chart that YOU used to make your point.  Where all you did was prove how wrong you were.

I'm actually surprised myself that Gillis had performed better than Benning in games played by picks 3rd round or later in the way you first divided it up. Thanks for sharing that.

Edit: I see in a new post you've edited your stats to bend them Bennings way.

 

Also, in the but but but department from one of your last posts, saying if Tryamkin had been here that would have added another 200 games to JBs totals.  Uh.......no mention of which GM first ostracized and then lowballed Tryamkin right up to 2021 when his agent said he realized he acted badly and was more mature, willing to work hard, and wanted back in?  Thanks for reminding me of yet another Benning blunder.  Nikita with his size, could have at the very least been a nice piece of trade bait for us, but JB's feelings were already hurt too bad, just like Brackett did for showing him up at the draft. Gilman for being too strict with the cap, and Linden for pushing for the only logical direction at the time.

 

And even then....after all that talk about draft success, no matter how you slice up your stats on drafting, that is only ONE job of the GM. To overlook the draft.  In fact he simply cannot spend his time flying to watch junior games all over NA. He obviously leaves that to others. It wasn't just lack of success at the draft, and the bare cupboards left, it was the cap predicament, the overpriced contracts, the buy outs on the books, the terrible defence, the mish mash of players that just don't work together.  Those and many others are the reasons Benning was so bad for this team.  And why, for all his faults, and conversely for his successes, Gillis was much better for the team and I might say for a fan's experience and enjoyment of watching their team play.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by kilgore

[AnthonyG]

1 minute ago, kilgore said:

 

Thats a lot of excuses, holy cow. For a stat chart that YOU used to make your point.  Where all you did was prove how wrong you were.

I'm actually surprised myself that Gillis had performed better than Benning in games played by picks 3rd round or later in the way you first divided it up. Thanks for sharing that.

Edit: I see in a new post you've edited your stats to bend them Bennings way.

 

Also, in the but but but department from one of your last posts, saying if Tryamkin had been here that would have added another 200 games to JBs totals.  Uh.......no mention of which GM first ostracized and then lowballed Tryamkin right up to 2021 when his agent said he realized he acted badly and was more mature, willing to work hard, and wanted back in?  Thanks for reminding me of yet another Benning blunder.  Nikita with his size, could have at the very least been a nice piece of trade bait for us, but JB's feelings were already hurt too bad, just like Brackett did for showing him up at the draft. Gillis for being too strict with the cap, and Linden for pushing for the only logical direction at the time.

 

And even then....after all that talk about draft success, no matter how you slice up your stats on drafting, that is only ONE job of the GM. To overlook the draft.  In fact he simply cannot spend his time flying to watch junior games all over NA. He obviously leaves that to others. It wasn't just lack of success at the draft, and the bare cupboards left, it was the cap predicament, the overpriced contracts, the buy outs on the books, the terrible defence, the mish mash of players that just don't work together.  Those and many others are the reasons Benning was so bad for this team.  And why, for all his faults, and conversely for his successes, Gillis was much better for the team and I might say for a fan's experience and enjoyment of watching their team play.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL EXCUSES?? I'm bending charts to benefit Benning???? WOW dude I'm speechless. I guess facts just dont work with you. Another mouthbreather here who cant even comprehend that a player drafted in 2010 has a massive headstart on any of JBs picks who havent even been selected yet

Jesus christ you cant even do simple math like holy crap
 

 

By me averaging out 11 years of drafting, including FOUR F***ING YEARS where JBs picks werent even drafted or scouted yet, that skews it HEAVILY in favour of Gillis. Yet Benning's numbers are STILL higher with 4 seasons that they never played in. LOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

 

 

[AnthonyG]

6 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Edit: I see in a new post you've edited your stats to bend them Bennings way.

 

19 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Think of it this way.

549GP/11 = 49.9GP per season. that is what Gillis's 3rd round and beyond picks have averaged over 10 years. 

662/7 = 95.2GP per season from JB's 3rd round picks and beyond. We avg almost 100GP per season. Nearly DOUBLE Gillis's picks. 

Even if I included the 4 non-existent years of drafting for JB from 2010-2013, JB STILL has a higher avg gp

662/11= 60.18

 

 

Learn 2 math

[AnthonyG]

48 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Also, in the but but but department from one of your last posts, saying if Tryamkin had been here that would have added another 200 games to JBs totals.  Uh.......no mention of which GM first ostracized and then lowballed Tryamkin right up to 2021 when his agent said he realized he acted badly and was more mature, willing to work hard, and wanted back in?  Thanks for reminding me of yet another Benning blunder.  Nikita with his size, could have at the very least been a nice piece of trade bait for us, but JB's feelings were already hurt too bad, just like Brackett did for showing him up at the draft. Gillis for being too strict with the cap, and Linden for pushing for the only logical direction at the time.

You like links to provide proof, care to share one that actually shows a breakdown of these figures and contract details???

People blamed it on sooo many things. The smell of weed, his wife wanting to go to Russia, give birth to kids in Russia not Canada....

Tryamkin had no intentions of signing here, nonetheless he was an NHL player and would have added to the totals if he was serious about being an NHLer, he used us as leverage against his KHL team. 

 

Canucks: Nikita Tryamkin's decision to take KHL deal dripping in drama | The Province

“We were prepared to pay Nikita what he was asking for, but my understanding is that his decision in the end was based on wanting to stay in Russia, rather than play in the NHL,” Benning said Sunday.

 

 

“Very simply, the financial gap was too wide for it to make sense for Nikita to move his family to Vancouver for less money than he was making in the KHL,” agent Todd Diamond said in an email response Sunday. “We tried to make the number(s) palatable to the Canucks by our willingness to do a one-year deal. 

 

 

That figure wasn’t revealed. Postmedia has learned one and two-year deals were presented to the Canucks, but weren’t based on NHL market comparables of where Tryamkin’s game is at after being out of the NHL for four seasons and turning 27 in August.

 

Werent based on comparables????? LOL so what, he's demanding top dollar? This is a deal he and HIS agent are presenting to the Canucks lmfao. So He overvalued himself.

 

“Nikita wanted to know the numbers now and was not prepared to wait for the Canucks to try and move some contracts out. We waited last summer for the Canucks to sign him and when Jim could not get approval, Nikita was left to negotiate a contract with his KHL club that had spent nearly its entire budget.

 

According to Canucks general manager Jim Benning, the native of Yekaterinburg, Russia, has not only signed a three-year contract with Avtomobilist Yekaterinburg, it’s a tax-free deal. As for the actual numbers, that’s as much of a mystery as the towering blueliner.

 

Defenceman Nikita Tryamkin signs two-year extension to stay in KHL (sportsnet.ca)

But he returned to his hometown of Yekaterinburg — where he began his career — for both personal and professional reasons. MacIntyre reported he and his partner had trouble adjusting to Vancouver and he was unhappy with his usage by former coach Willie Desjardins.

 

 

Looks to me like Tryamkin 1) demanded a contract that was well above his value 4 years after he had last played in the NHL and had proved nothing in that timeframe to be worth whatever deal it was. They claim they were willing to do a 1 year deal, but wouldnt take a slight pay cut if that was the case, to ensure a bigger deal. Seems to me like someone was demanding. Oh and ontop of that his wife wears the pants. 

 

48 minutes ago, kilgore said:

And even then....after all that talk about draft success, no matter how you slice up your stats on drafting, that is only ONE job of the GM. To overlook the draft.  In fact he simply cannot spend his time flying to watch junior games all over NA. He obviously leaves that to others. It wasn't just lack of success at the draft, and the bare cupboards left, it was the cap predicament, the overpriced contracts, the buy outs on the books, the terrible defence, the mish mash of players that just don't work together.  Those and many others are the reasons Benning was so bad for this team.  And why, for all his faults, and conversely for his successes, Gillis was much better for the team and I might say for a fan's experience and enjoyment of watching their team play.

lol wow... So Drafting is one job, yes, JB was well within the top 10 in the league in terms of drafting NHL talent during his tenure. Without the help of 1OA or top 3 picks. 

The other one is trades

Most of his trades he won

UFA signings - sure he had a couple overpaid. BUT THEY WERE IN A GOD DAMN REBUILD WHO CARES!?!?!?!? Did he f*** up our window to contend like Gillis did?? NOPE. 

How about RFA negotiations?? Demko, Hughes, Pettersson, Boeser, Virtanen, Horvat, Tanev. 

Oh but we'll blame him for COVID flattening the cap just a few weeks after acquiring Toffoli and the cap being announced to rise to 84-88mil. Whats the cap at right now? OH RIGHT 82.5MIL.

 

 

Feb. 17, 2020

Los Angeles Kings Acquire: Tim Schaller · $1,900,000 Tyler Madden · $0 (AHL/JR) (Signing Rights) 2020 2nd round pick (VAN - #51 - Theodor Niederbach) 2022 4th round pick (VAN - #112 - Daimon Gardner) [Conditional]*   *Conditions: Pick is transferred if Tyler Toffoli re-signs with the Vancouver Canucks Result: Toffoli did not re-sign with Vancouver. No pick is transferred. Sum: $1,900,000 Change: -$2,700,000

Vancouver Canucks Acquire: Tyler Toffoli · $4,600,000   Sum: $4,600,000 Change: +$2,700,00

 

March 4th 2020 

There was good news for NHL general managers on Wednesday. According to Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly, the projected salary cap ceiling for next season is between $84 million and $88.2 million.

 

NHL salary cap projected to rise in 2020-21 | ProHockeyTalk | NBC Sports

 

Bettman: NHL to be "flat cap or near flat cap for the immediate future"

March 10th 2021, 13:58

Gary Bettman made it clear on Wednesday that the league will be focused on a flat cap or a near flat cap for the immediate future.

“As part of that the salary cap is basically going to be flat until we recover the overpayments through the escrow that we have build up in both the Return to Play and this season where obviously there is a major escrow building up because of the fact that there’s no attendance and attendance directly and indirectly accounts for roughly half our revenues,” said Bettman during the press conference via Zoom.

 

Bettman: NHL to be "flat cap or near flat cap for the immediate future" (eprinkside.com)

 

So thats Benning's fault right?? He started COVID, he flattened the cap, trades basically froze and contract negotiations took a hit, because of Benning right??

 

If we had that 84-88mil then, we would have re-signed Tanev AND Toffoli. JB worked like a dog to shed cap and saved us just under 2mil, by letting Markstrom, Tanev and Toffoli go and signed Holtby, Schmidt (whos numbers in pretty much every aspect plus his health was WAAAAAAAAY better than Tanevs) and extended Pearson.

 

 

For someone who enjoys the "Gillis" era, you're pretty clueless to not realize that, that was LARGELY Brian Burke's work and Nonis. Gillis did very little, so maybe do a bit of research and gain an understanding of the history of the Canucks. Gillis added Erhoff, Hamhuis, Torres, Lappierre, Malhotra and Ballard. Mainly bottom 6 guys and 2 dmen. You fail to recognize the excitement in the future we currently have playing infront of your very eyes. Pettersson, Hughes, Demko all currently playing and going to continue playing major roles in our teams window of contention. 

 

 

[Timråfan]

9 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

You like links to provide proof, care to share one that actually shows a breakdown of these figures and contract details???

People blamed it on sooo many things. The smell of weed, his wife wanting to go to Russia, give birth to kids in Russia not Canada....

Tryamkin had no intentions of signing here, nonetheless he was an NHL player and would have added to the totals if he was serious about being an NHLer, he used us as leverage against his KHL team. 

 

Canucks: Nikita Tryamkin's decision to take KHL deal dripping in drama | The Province

“We were prepared to pay Nikita what he was asking for, but my understanding is that his decision in the end was based on wanting to stay in Russia, rather than play in the NHL,” Benning said Sunday.

 

 

“Very simply, the financial gap was too wide for it to make sense for Nikita to move his family to Vancouver for less money than he was making in the KHL,” agent Todd Diamond said in an email response Sunday. “We tried to make the number(s) palatable to the Canucks by our willingness to do a one-year deal. 

 

 

That figure wasn’t revealed. Postmedia has learned one and two-year deals were presented to the Canucks, but weren’t based on NHL market comparables of where Tryamkin’s game is at after being out of the NHL for four seasons and turning 27 in August.

 

Werent based on comparables????? LOL so what, he's demanding top dollar? This is a deal he and HIS agent are presenting to the Canucks lmfao. So He overvalued himself.

 

“Nikita wanted to know the numbers now and was not prepared to wait for the Canucks to try and move some contracts out. We waited last summer for the Canucks to sign him and when Jim could not get approval, Nikita was left to negotiate a contract with his KHL club that had spent nearly its entire budget.

 

According to Canucks general manager Jim Benning, the native of Yekaterinburg, Russia, has not only signed a three-year contract with Avtomobilist Yekaterinburg, it’s a tax-free deal. As for the actual numbers, that’s as much of a mystery as the towering blueliner.

 

Defenceman Nikita Tryamkin signs two-year extension to stay in KHL (sportsnet.ca)

But he returned to his hometown of Yekaterinburg — where he began his career — for both personal and professional reasons. MacIntyre reported he and his partner had trouble adjusting to Vancouver and he was unhappy with his usage by former coach Willie Desjardins.

 

 

Looks to me like Tryamkin 1) demanded a contract that was well above his value 4 years after he had last played in the NHL and had proved nothing in that timeframe to be worth whatever deal it was. They claim they were willing to do a 1 year deal, but wouldnt take a slight pay cut if that was the case, to ensure a bigger deal. Seems to me like someone was demanding. Oh and ontop of that his wife wears the pants. 

 

lol wow... So Drafting is one job, yes, JB was well within the top 10 in the league in terms of drafting NHL talent during his tenure. Without the help of 1OA or top 3 picks. 

The other one is trades

Most of his trades he won

UFA signings - sure he had a couple overpaid. BUT THEY WERE IN A GOD DAMN REBUILD WHO CARES!?!?!?!? Did he f*** up our window to contend like Gillis did?? NOPE. 

How about RFA negotiations?? Demko, Hughes, Pettersson, Boeser, Virtanen, Horvat, Tanev. 

Oh but we'll blame him for COVID flattening the cap just a few weeks after acquiring Toffoli and the cap being announced to rise to 84-88mil. Whats the cap at right now? OH RIGHT 82.5MIL.

 

 

Feb. 17, 2020

Los Angeles Kings Acquire: Tim Schaller · $1,900,000 Tyler Madden · $0 (AHL/JR) (Signing Rights) 2020 2nd round pick (VAN - #51 - Theodor Niederbach) 2022 4th round pick (VAN - #112 - Daimon Gardner) [Conditional]*   *Conditions: Pick is transferred if Tyler Toffoli re-signs with the Vancouver Canucks Result: Toffoli did not re-sign with Vancouver. No pick is transferred. Sum: $1,900,000 Change: -$2,700,000

Vancouver Canucks Acquire: Tyler Toffoli · $4,600,000   Sum: $4,600,000 Change: +$2,700,00

 

March 4th 2020 

There was good news for NHL general managers on Wednesday. According to Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly, the projected salary cap ceiling for next season is between $84 million and $88.2 million.

 

NHL salary cap projected to rise in 2020-21 | ProHockeyTalk | NBC Sports

 

Bettman: NHL to be "flat cap or near flat cap for the immediate future"

March 10th 2021, 13:58

Gary Bettman made it clear on Wednesday that the league will be focused on a flat cap or a near flat cap for the immediate future.

“As part of that the salary cap is basically going to be flat until we recover the overpayments through the escrow that we have build up in both the Return to Play and this season where obviously there is a major escrow building up because of the fact that there’s no attendance and attendance directly and indirectly accounts for roughly half our revenues,” said Bettman during the press conference via Zoom.

 

Bettman: NHL to be "flat cap or near flat cap for the immediate future" (eprinkside.com)

 

So thats Benning's fault right?? He started COVID, he flattened the cap, trades basically froze and contract negotiations took a hit, because of Benning right??

 

If we had that 84-88mil then, we would have re-signed Tanev AND Toffoli. JB worked like a dog to shed cap and saved us just under 2mil, by letting Markstrom, Tanev and Toffoli go and signed Holtby, Schmidt (whos numbers in pretty much every aspect plus his health was WAAAAAAAAY better than Tanevs) and extended Pearson.

 

 

For someone who enjoys the "Gillis" era, you're pretty clueless to not realize that, that was LARGELY Brian Burke's work and Nonis. Gillis did very little, so maybe do a bit of research and gain an understanding of the history of the Canucks. Gillis added Erhoff, Hamhuis, Torres, Lappierre, Malhotra and Ballard. Mainly bottom 6 guys and 2 dmen. You fail to recognize the excitement in the future we currently have playing infront of your very eyes. Pettersson, Hughes, Demko all currently playing and going to continue playing major roles in our teams window of contention. 

 

 

Suitable that you put in Trump in all of your mess.

I hope you realise that Benning acted like Trump.

POS, good riddance…

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

Not sure why you are bringing up MG, I didn't mention him in the post you responded to.  I was talking about JB.  But whatever, I'll bite.

 

I agree with you about Gillis for the most part.  He definitely was not as brilliant as his arrogance implied he was. He also found Tanev to add to your list. But I think Gillis strengths were not about drafting, and amateur scouting, as he has admitted to.  He regretted not revamping that department. He relied on others opinions there. Including our drafting stalwart Ron Delorme who has been largely responsible for our dismal league record of failing draft picks since inception.

 

I think Gillis strength was an ability to get the players to buy into what he was selling with his new fangled sleep doctors etc. His talent was in collecting and keeping together valuable pieces that supported the Canuck way of playing under the Sedins.  And convincing enough to stay, and play for a home town discount in order to be able to build a (almost) championship team. (As opposed to trading draft picks for free agents who had no history with the team, and paying a premium price for them)

 

You could say ultimately the difference was that, on balance, Gillis was adding value (or evened out) while Benning was depleting value.  While both depleted value in our prospect pool Gillis at least increased the value on the top end, and even other support positions. Which earned us a trip to the SCF.  (Side note:  Just imagine how far apart the respect between Gillis and Benning would be today if we'd just have been able to win that game in June of 2011, assuming JB was still hired right after) 

 

Those pieces Gillis left still had enough value that any new GM could have used that value to begin a rebuild.  Benning chose to let all those assets get older, less productive, and lose a lot of their value, or just play out their contracts and leave for nothing.  Now there was new value he acquired in Petey, Hughes, and also, Demko, Podkolzin, Hoglander along the way.  After eight years in the basement, there better be at least a few good picks working out.  Its actually quite depressing just how few other picks ever made it.  But with many of the picks traded away for a wish and a prayer quick solution, JB gave his own odds of getting successful picks a rough ride.  We needed an army.  It was actually quite bizarre in hindsight watching Benning do the exact opposite of what most thought he'd do more of.  Draft and develop.  And maybe some are also disappointed in JR for not doing what we expected from him either.  Blow it up immediately upon arrival.  At least Gillis did what most sane GMs would do if inheriting a good core of peaking performers. Facilitate their success with cap management and support players and defense that could push them into the next level.

Agree.   Except I was referring to the 2010-2011 team,  Tanev was a late arrival - so kept him out and Higgins who was a decent support player too.   And that any choice JB had, was mostly gone when he arrived (Luongo and Schnieder already moved), only other player who wanted out while they still had good value was Kesler.   Even Hansen was fully claused.   2017 was when Burrows, Hansen and Bieksa had moved on,  got a couple picks/prospects nothing like the value could have been thought and that's ok.  

 

Just glad it's over.   And truly hope the new management is willing and able to rip it up to the degree it needs to be ripped up.   For sure this fanbase has the patience for a full rebuild even.  

[lmm]

20 hours ago, The Lock said:

The thing is, you're only really focusing on the GMs that have stayed in power. Poile is very much the exception to the rule. He's literally the only GM Nashville's ever had. To say that's rare when you consider how long that has been is an understatement.

 

If you want examples of GMs winning and not being on that team anymore I can give you examples outside of the Canucks:

Murray (ANA), although there's controversy there but still lol

Maloney (ARI), the only time Arizona has ever made it to the 3rd round of the playoffs

Chiarelli (BOS), won the stanley cup (unfortunately)

Sutter (CAL), was a GM while being a coach, made it to the SCF though

Bowman (CHI), won multiple Stanley cups

 

This is just going through the start of teams in alphabetical order and I bet you almost every team (obviously not Nashville thus almost) has at least one GM with a winning record that was fired later on.

 

Of course, teams like Arizona and Buffalo sweep out GMs more, but that's just more GMs that were fired which really does add to my point and I don't think should be ignored.

now you are just listing GMs who have left their jobs

everyone leaves jobs

I have left every job I have ever had except the one I currently have

and so have you

that is a funny list

didn't Murray and Bowman both step down because of sex scandals

Sutter fired himself

and Moloney was was in Arizona, which I mentioned earlier as a team that regularly "Cleans house"

so that leaves you with Chia

[The Lock]

13 minutes ago, lmm said:

now you are just listing GMs who have left their jobs

everyone leaves jobs

I have left every job I have ever had except the one I currently have

and so have you

that is a funny list

didn't Murray and Bowman both step down because of sex scandals

Sutter fired himself

and Moloney was was in Arizona, which I mentioned earlier as a team that regularly "Cleans house"

so that leaves you with Chia

You only listed a couple of GMs that haven't be fired a their jobs. Does that make what you're saying any better? If so, please elaborate further.

 

I'm listing GMs who were among the most successful at their job within that particular organization, in some cases the most successful at their job in that organization, only to have to leave later on due to the team losing. Your premise here is to say that winning GMs get to keep their jobs, yes? My list proves that that's not necessarily the case.

 

Also, I only provided the start of the alphabetical list of teams. Do you want me to go through ALL of the teams? I literally only had to do 5 minutes of work to get those 5 GMs. I also could provide more than 1 GM from each team. I was hoping you'd be able to understand this and be less bullheaded about this. I figured you were a smart so I didn't go any further. I still do think you're smart, but if you really need me to start coming up with an exhaustive list for this discussion that has no bearing on anything otherwise, I will; however, I want to see your list with my list. You also should be doing work in this.

 

We can 100% get to the bottom of all this if that is what you really want, although I expect you to just say "it's a funny list" no matter how much work I put in because you seem to be here to "win a debate", not actually learn what happens to GMs. This isn't meant as an attack, just an observation. Perhaps you could pleasantly surprise me though.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by The Lock

[alt kilgore]

16 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

You like links to provide proof, care to share one that actually shows a breakdown of these figures and contract details???

People blamed it on sooo many things. The smell of weed, his wife wanting to go to Russia, give birth to kids in Russia not Canada....

Tryamkin had no intentions of signing here, nonetheless he was an NHL player and would have added to the totals if he was serious about being an NHLer, he used us as leverage against his KHL team. 

 

Canucks: Nikita Tryamkin's decision to take KHL deal dripping in drama | The Province

“We were prepared to pay Nikita what he was asking for, but my understanding is that his decision in the end was based on wanting to stay in Russia, rather than play in the NHL,” Benning said Sunday.

 

 

“Very simply, the financial gap was too wide for it to make sense for Nikita to move his family to Vancouver for less money than he was making in the KHL,” agent Todd Diamond said in an email response Sunday. “We tried to make the number(s) palatable to the Canucks by our willingness to do a one-year deal. 

 

 

That figure wasn’t revealed. Postmedia has learned one and two-year deals were presented to the Canucks, but weren’t based on NHL market comparables of where Tryamkin’s game is at after being out of the NHL for four seasons and turning 27 in August.

 

Werent based on comparables????? LOL so what, he's demanding top dollar? This is a deal he and HIS agent are presenting to the Canucks lmfao. So He overvalued himself.

 

“Nikita wanted to know the numbers now and was not prepared to wait for the Canucks to try and move some contracts out. We waited last summer for the Canucks to sign him and when Jim could not get approval, Nikita was left to negotiate a contract with his KHL club that had spent nearly its entire budget.

 

According to Canucks general manager Jim Benning, the native of Yekaterinburg, Russia, has not only signed a three-year contract with Avtomobilist Yekaterinburg, it’s a tax-free deal. As for the actual numbers, that’s as much of a mystery as the towering blueliner.

 

Defenceman Nikita Tryamkin signs two-year extension to stay in KHL (sportsnet.ca)

But he returned to his hometown of Yekaterinburg — where he began his career — for both personal and professional reasons. MacIntyre reported he and his partner had trouble adjusting to Vancouver and he was unhappy with his usage by former coach Willie Desjardins.

 

 

Looks to me like Tryamkin 1) demanded a contract that was well above his value 4 years after he had last played in the NHL and had proved nothing in that timeframe to be worth whatever deal it was. They claim they were willing to do a 1 year deal, but wouldnt take a slight pay cut if that was the case, to ensure a bigger deal. Seems to me like someone was demanding. Oh and ontop of that his wife wears the pants. 

 

lol wow... So Drafting is one job, yes, JB was well within the top 10 in the league in terms of drafting NHL talent during his tenure. Without the help of 1OA or top 3 picks. 

The other one is trades

Most of his trades he won

UFA signings - sure he had a couple overpaid. BUT THEY WERE IN A GOD DAMN REBUILD WHO CARES!?!?!?!? Did he f*** up our window to contend like Gillis did?? NOPE. 

How about RFA negotiations?? Demko, Hughes, Pettersson, Boeser, Virtanen, Horvat, Tanev. 

Oh but we'll blame him for COVID flattening the cap just a few weeks after acquiring Toffoli and the cap being announced to rise to 84-88mil. Whats the cap at right now? OH RIGHT 82.5MIL.

 

 

Feb. 17, 2020

Los Angeles Kings Acquire: Tim Schaller · $1,900,000 Tyler Madden · $0 (AHL/JR) (Signing Rights) 2020 2nd round pick (VAN - #51 - Theodor Niederbach) 2022 4th round pick (VAN - #112 - Daimon Gardner) [Conditional]*   *Conditions: Pick is transferred if Tyler Toffoli re-signs with the Vancouver Canucks Result: Toffoli did not re-sign with Vancouver. No pick is transferred. Sum: $1,900,000 Change: -$2,700,000

Vancouver Canucks Acquire: Tyler Toffoli · $4,600,000   Sum: $4,600,000 Change: +$2,700,00

 

March 4th 2020 

There was good news for NHL general managers on Wednesday. According to Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly, the projected salary cap ceiling for next season is between $84 million and $88.2 million.

 

NHL salary cap projected to rise in 2020-21 | ProHockeyTalk | NBC Sports

 

Bettman: NHL to be "flat cap or near flat cap for the immediate future"

March 10th 2021, 13:58

Gary Bettman made it clear on Wednesday that the league will be focused on a flat cap or a near flat cap for the immediate future.

“As part of that the salary cap is basically going to be flat until we recover the overpayments through the escrow that we have build up in both the Return to Play and this season where obviously there is a major escrow building up because of the fact that there’s no attendance and attendance directly and indirectly accounts for roughly half our revenues,” said Bettman during the press conference via Zoom.

 

Bettman: NHL to be "flat cap or near flat cap for the immediate future" (eprinkside.com)

 

So thats Benning's fault right?? He started COVID, he flattened the cap, trades basically froze and contract negotiations took a hit, because of Benning right??

 

If we had that 84-88mil then, we would have re-signed Tanev AND Toffoli. JB worked like a dog to shed cap and saved us just under 2mil, by letting Markstrom, Tanev and Toffoli go and signed Holtby, Schmidt (whos numbers in pretty much every aspect plus his health was WAAAAAAAAY better than Tanevs) and extended Pearson.

 

 

For someone who enjoys the "Gillis" era, you're pretty clueless to not realize that, that was LARGELY Brian Burke's work and Nonis. Gillis did very little, so maybe do a bit of research and gain an understanding of the history of the Canucks. Gillis added Erhoff, Hamhuis, Torres, Lappierre, Malhotra and Ballard. Mainly bottom 6 guys and 2 dmen. You fail to recognize the excitement in the future we currently have playing infront of your very eyes. Pettersson, Hughes, Demko all currently playing and going to continue playing major roles in our teams window of contention. 

 

 

 

I respect your passion.  I do.  Even if I think you have a wildly warped bias.  

Did the sequel come out already?........Cocaine Dazzle!

 

You have problems with how I re-wrote the stats that you provided?  I understand the concept of prospects needing time to develop (or not). before one can make a complete judgment.  Even so, its already 2.5 years  since the 2020 draft. But there are also a lot of other factors that go along with that kind of stat.  Like how many of those 3rd round picks or later are playing for the Canucks?  How many were traded away for rainbows and unicorns? That's why its important to point out that drafting isn't a GMs only job.

 

Either way, I simply lifted off the page what you used to "prove" something something about Bennings superiority.

 

.................

 

"Lets take Gillis's drafting out of that initial equation in that LOVELY chart you provided.

Drafting during Benning's tenure 2014-20

 

VAN - 662

 

Now lets look at your Boy Gillis's drafting compared to his counterparts around the league from 2010-2013 those other 4 drafts you seem to think is JBs responsibility

 

VANCOUVER CANUCKS - 549"

 

...................

 

So in that post, the way you presented your facts, only revealed that by average based on number of seasons, Gillis performed significantly better.  Blame the messenger......you!

 

Yes, I did enjoy the Gillis era of hockey watching.  He didn't squander the pieces that Burke and Nonis left him, and built a solid team around them, with friendly contracts, and provided me with an excitement to want to watch every minute of every game.

 

Not to mention that Benning was picking on average much higher in the draft.  Also not to mention that drafting was supposed to be what Benning was a specialist in, while Gillis mistake was recognizing that he wasn't a scout, he handed that responsibility over to his supposedly experienced scouting staff and took their word on draft day. But either way this whole idea of comparing only draft pick success, between Gillis and Benning is apples and oranges.  They were both in completely different situations as far as the cycle of a team. Gillis recognised and made the best of his situation. Benning completely misread his. That or he swallowed all his pride and honour to keep a job. Either way it was fail in almost every department.  Despite another long list of excuses from you. Guess what...Benning wasn't the only GM dealing with a flat cap. He was just the only one not prepared for it.

 

[DSVII]

I'll just leave this here for some context. First round picks only:

 

GM A (five 1sts):  10, 22, 29, 26, 9

GM B (six 1sts) : 6, 23, 5, 5, 7, 10

 

We take these numbers to the other 6 rounds and the percentages are even bleaker.

 

 

To argue that GM A couldn't stock up the farm as well as GM B or get as many NHL Games played isn't an apples to apples comparison. Especially given the mandates each GM was operating in at the time.

 

GM B has an undeniable advantage here. If you told me GM A drafted players in rounds 3-7 that cumulatively played ~200 fewer NHL games than GM B's 3-7s, that's actually quite impressive. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by DSVII

[Conscience]

Benning should be in prison for his negligence 

[Ghostsof1915]

No GM in Vancouver has passed the final test.

Winning a Stanley Cup.

 

I'll leave it at that.

 

[jyu]

20 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL EXCUSES?? I'm bending charts to benefit Benning???? WOW dude I'm speechless. I guess facts just dont work with you. Another mouthbreather here who cant even comprehend that a player drafted in 2010 has a massive headstart on any of JBs picks who havent even been selected yet

Jesus christ you cant even do simple math like holy crap
 

 

By me averaging out 11 years of drafting, including FOUR F***ING YEARS where JBs picks werent even drafted or scouted yet, that skews it HEAVILY in favour of Gillis. Yet Benning's numbers are STILL higher with 4 seasons that they never played in. LOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

 

 

Your calculations are reasonable. There's no denying that Gillis' downfall was at the draft. If he drafted decently enough, the 2012-2015 team probably gets one more crack at the cup. For example, if he had drafted just one scorer, just one, to fill in for Daniel Sedin and to hold the LA series from going 3-0 but say 2-1... Then, Daniel returns and we win game 4 and the series is tied 2-2. The core got stale because there was no young player coming up to disrupt and generate competition for roles. Everybody came to the training camp, knowing their spot was already claimed for and went about it mechanistically. That gave us a good regular season team who knew the formula for winning regular season games but it never developed another gear for the playoffs because it didn't need to.

 

As for the drafting success of JB, everyone would agree that JB had two grand slams: Petey and Hughes. People argue that Hughes was the consensus blah blah but that wasn't the case. Some teams like Detroit couldn't resist the temptation to draft a top 3 rated prospect in Zadina even though I think they were all set to draft Hughes developed in their own backyard. Other teams were scared off by Hughes' size and went way off board like nuts (Kotkaniemi, Hayton). So both picks to me were the greatest contributions JB made to the team along with drafting Demko as well as developing Horvat and Marky, who were not drafted by Benning but developed during his tenure. 

 

I look at 2014-2019 as rebuilding years even though the team refused to use that word and I think he laid good foundation by hitting on the first rounders and surrounding them with good supplementary players. 

 

During that time, his greatest duds were Virtanen and Juolevi. Especially Juolevi, who didn't even make the NHL. At #5, you expect at least an NHL player. He was unlucky with injuries but I think the GM needs to own up for the failed first round picks, especially if it's #5 or #6 overall picks. 

 

So he had two grand slams (EP, QH), one doubleplay (JV), one tripleplay (OJ), and three hits (Boeser, McCann, and Podz). That's not bad in the first round compared to any other GMs in the league.

 

Drafting NHL players in the later rounds depend more on the scouting team and luck than the GM. The Canucks just don't really have the history of drafting good players in the later rounds whether it was Quinn, Burke, Gillis, or Benning. For the same reason, I wouldn't blame Gillis for not being able to draft players in the later rounds. Gillis didn't have much success in the first round: Hodgson (10), Schroeder (22), 2010 1st traded, Jensen (29), Gaunce (26), Horvat (9), Shinkaruk (26). He was serving a different goal to that of Benning though.

 

[Fred65]

25 minutes ago, jyu said:

Your calculations are reasonable. There's no denying that Gillis' downfall was at the draft. If he drafted decently enough, the 2012-2015 team probably gets one more crack at the cup. For example, if he had drafted just one scorer, just one, to fill in for Daniel Sedin and to hold the LA series from going 3-0 but say 2-1... Then, Daniel returns and we win game 4 and the series is tied 2-2. The core got stale because there was no young player coming up to disrupt and generate competition for roles. Everybody came to the training camp, knowing their spot was already claimed for and went about it mechanistically. That gave us a good regular season team who knew the formula for winning regular season games but it never developed another gear for the playoffs because it didn't need to.

 

As for the drafting success of JB, everyone would agree that JB had two grand slams: Petey and Hughes. People argue that Hughes was the consensus blah blah but that wasn't the case. Some teams like Detroit couldn't resist the temptation to draft a top 3 rated prospect in Zadina even though I think they were all set to draft Hughes developed in their own backyard. Other teams were scared off by Hughes' size and went way off board like nuts (Kotkaniemi, Hayton). So both picks to me were the greatest contributions JB made to the team along with drafting Demko as well as developing Horvat and Marky, who were not drafted by Benning but developed during his tenure. 

 

I look at 2014-2019 as rebuilding years even though the team refused to use that word and I think he laid good foundation by hitting on the first rounders and surrounding them with good supplementary players. 

 

During that time, his greatest duds were Virtanen and Juolevi. Especially Juolevi, who didn't even make the NHL. At #5, you expect at least an NHL player. He was unlucky with injuries but I think the GM needs to own up for the failed first round picks, especially if it's #5 or #6 overall picks. 

 

So he had two grand slams (EP, QH), one doubleplay (JV), one tripleplay (OJ), and three hits (Boeser, McCann, and Podz). That's not bad in the first round compared to any other GMs in the league.

 

Drafting NHL players in the later rounds depend more on the scouting team and luck than the GM. The Canucks just don't really have the history of drafting good players in the later rounds whether it was Quinn, Burke, Gillis, or Benning. For the same reason, I wouldn't blame Gillis for not being able to draft players in the later rounds. Gillis didn't have much success in the first round: Hodgson (10), Schroeder (22), 2010 1st traded, Jensen (29), Gaunce (26), Horvat (9), Shinkaruk (26). He was serving a different goal to that of Benning though.

 

A question if I may how do you adjust thinking when some have the advantage of picking top 5 and other are firmly at the late end of the draft due to success in the league ?

[alt kilgore]

18 minutes ago, jyu said:

Your calculations are reasonable. There's no denying that Gillis' downfall was at the draft. If he drafted decently enough, the 2012-2015 team probably gets one more crack at the cup. For example, if he had drafted just one scorer, just one, to fill in for Daniel Sedin and to hold the LA series from going 3-0 but say 2-1... Then, Daniel returns and we win game 4 and the series is tied 2-2. The core got stale because there was no young player coming up to disrupt and generate competition for roles. Everybody came to the training camp, knowing their spot was already claimed for and went about it mechanistically. That gave us a good regular season team who knew the formula for winning regular season games but it never developed another gear for the playoffs because it didn't need to.

 

As for the drafting success of JB, everyone would agree that JB had two grand slams: Petey and Hughes. People argue that Hughes was the consensus blah blah but that wasn't the case. Some teams like Detroit couldn't resist the temptation to draft a top 3 rated prospect in Zadina even though I think they were all set to draft Hughes developed in their own backyard. Other teams were scared off by Hughes' size and went way off board like nuts (Kotkaniemi, Hayton). So both picks to me were the greatest contributions JB made to the team along with drafting Demko as well as developing Horvat and Marky, who were not drafted by Benning but developed during his tenure. 

 

I look at 2014-2019 as rebuilding years even though the team refused to use that word and I think he laid good foundation by hitting on the first rounders and surrounding them with good supplementary players. 

 

During that time, his greatest duds were Virtanen and Juolevi. Especially Juolevi, who didn't even make the NHL. At #5, you expect at least an NHL player. He was unlucky with injuries but I think the GM needs to own up for the failed first round picks, especially if it's #5 or #6 overall picks. 

 

So he had two grand slams (EP, QH), one doubleplay (JV), one tripleplay (OJ), and three hits (Boeser, McCann, and Podz). That's not bad in the first round compared to any other GMs in the league.

 

Drafting NHL players in the later rounds depend more on the scouting team and luck than the GM. The Canucks just don't really have the history of drafting good players in the later rounds whether it was Quinn, Burke, Gillis, or Benning. For the same reason, I wouldn't blame Gillis for not being able to draft players in the later rounds. Gillis didn't have much success in the first round: Hodgson (10), Schroeder (22), 2010 1st traded, Jensen (29), Gaunce (26), Horvat (9), Shinkaruk (26). He was serving a different goal to that of Benning though.

 

 

I think you posted a pretty reasonable post over all.

A bit of cherry picking. but everything I could somewhat agree with but this bizzare sentence:

 

I look at 2014-2019 as rebuilding years even though the team refused to use that word and I think he laid good foundation by hitting on the first rounders and surrounding them with good supplementary players. 

 

"foundation" like the "foundational" Brandon Sutter? Or giving up a prospect like McCann for "foundational" Gudbranson?  So many of these over paid project pieces that didn't work out. And the rest of the Sea of Granlunds.  "surrounding them with good supplementary players"?  One of JB's biggest failures was this. Instead of developing these players from within, like Gillis did with Burrows, Kesler, Schneider... he tried for the quick fix at the expense of the future.  Not only was that kind of strategy NOT an attempt to do a rebuild, but this 'quick turnaround' plan failed so miserably, that some could be mistaken that JB was actually trying for a rebuild just because of all the top ten picks he had....regardless of how hard he was trying to NOT be in a position to be picking that high. 

 

And of the 5 top ten picks, he had, two are playing regular, two are not even in the NHL, and one is still proving himself here. Not exactly hitting it out of the park.  It was an "accidental rebuild" if you want to call it any kind of rebuild.  It would have been nice if Uncle Jim had recognized that the Hockey Gods just weren't going along with his quick fix plan by the time at least after Hughes fell into his lap in 2018. And then, better late than never, stripped the team down and found a young group to grow up and develop with the few decent picks we had while they were on their ELCs.  Or even waited until the 2019 draft when he got Podkolzin.  That was on June 21st 2019. 

 

June 22nd 2019, the very next day after that, JB made clear he was NOT going to relent in his quest for the holy grail (of barely making the playoffs)  And traded away another first and third for JT Miller.

 

The very fact that some are confused about if there actually was a rebuild going on, even while management was banning the word, is proof enough that there was no clear direction. Which is a recipe for disaster.

[jyu]

53 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

I think you posted a pretty reasonable post over all.

Thanks. 
 

I replied your points one by one. 
 

Overall I agree with you that Accelerating the rebuild doesn’t work in general. Benning tried anyways and in the end, it set us back. But if it worked, he would have pulled off the impossible. And I think he may have been able to pull it off if not for his questionable roster moves post-2020 playoffs and COVID punishing his lenient cap usage. 

 

53 minutes ago, kilgore said:

A bit of cherry picking. but everything I could somewhat agree with but this bizzare sentence:

 

I look at 2014-2019 as rebuilding years even though the team refused to use that word and I think he laid good foundation by hitting on the first rounders and surrounding them with good supplementary players. 

 

"foundation" like the "foundational" Brandon Sutter? Or giving up a prospect like McCann for "foundational" Gudbranson?  So many of these over paid project pieces that didn't work out. And the rest of the Sea of Granlunds.  "surrounding them with good supplementary players"? 
 

I don’t want to argue for or against specific moves but i think getting sutter was good. I would not want Pettersson doing the tough match up while still needing to develop his game, same with Bo earlier on. 

 

Gudbrason was a bad move for sure. Gave up on McCann too quick. Same with Forsling, I personally did not like that move to get Clendening myself. 
 

He stated on many occasions that he wanted to surround the young guys with vets. You don’t want Edmonton Oilers, where guys like Hall and RNH were expected to play like a seasoned vet from the getgo. Getting the vets in the right age group was to avoid running the prospects. Some moves went bad, some moves were OK, and some went well in my opinion. 

 

53 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

One of JB's biggest failures was this. Instead of developing these players from within, like Gillis did with Burrows, Kesler, Schneider... he tried for the quick fix at the expense of the future. 
 

 

You can’t compare to Gillis promoting players from within like Kesler, Schneider, Burrows, because they were in the system well before Gillis arrived. Juice in 2001. Kesler drafted in 2003. Edler, Schneids, Hansen in 2004. Raymond in 2005. These guys have been in the system developing for 3-5 years before Gillis even got there. 
 

Benning had none. Like literally zero player ready to step in when he took over in 2014. He had Bo and Marky in the system but they needed further development. Bo made it in 2015 and slowly worked his way up the line up, he was mentored by guys like Sedins and Sutter.  Marky around 2016 and full time in 2017. He too was mentored by an experienced vet in Miller… Ryan Miller. 
 

And Gillis had prime Sedins and Luongo, to go along with those young NHL players.  Sedins were already PPG players and Luongo was considered a top 3 goalie in the league at the time. And obviously they would go on to become hall of famers.  Benning didnt have a core of hall of famers.  He didnt even have young NHL roster players. Instead he was left with an aging core who all had NMC or NTC. 

 

53 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Not only was that kind of strategy NOT an attempt to do a rebuild, but this 'quick turnaround' plan failed so miserably, that some could be mistaken that JB was actually trying for a rebuild just because of all the top ten picks he had....regardless of how hard he was trying to NOT be in a position to be picking that high. 
 

Hmm. This bolded point assumes that if JB didnt trade for say Gudbransons or Sutters, we would have performed better — that by making these moves he ended up actually rebuilding insted of turning it around.  Correct?

 

If he didn’t make those moves, we would have performed more or less the same: 2nd worst in the league for two consecutive seasons in 2016 and 2017. I dont think those moves did anything other than trading away prospects — which i agree were poor decisions. 

 

 

53 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

And of the 5 top ten picks, he had, two are playing regular, two are not even in the NHL, and one is still proving himself here. Not exactly hitting it out of the park.

Two that are playing are not just playing though. One is a top 10, arguably a top 5 center in the league. The other guy is a top 5 puck possession defenceman in the league. Two that are not playing, yes that is unfortunate. I wish we picked Ehlers and Chychrun or Sergachev. 

 

53 minutes ago, kilgore said:

  It was an "accidental rebuild" if you want to call it any kind of rebuild. 
 

the team was going to rebuild with or without those moves. It wasn’t accidental. When all you have are 30+ year olds with literally no young player or prospects, rebuild is inevitable no matter what benning did or didn’t do. 
 

My regret is, that he and the owner should have accepted this inevitable rebuild and to have rebuild methodically instead of making moves that didn’t make much difference only to waste assets. This is exactly what Linden was saying and he was shown  the door. 

 

53 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

It would have been nice if Uncle Jim had recognized that the Hockey Gods just weren't going along with his quick fix plan by the time at least after Hughes fell into his lap in 2018. And then, better late than never, stripped the team down and found a young group to grow up and develop with the few decent picks we had while they were on their ELCs.  Or even waited until the 2019 draft when he got Podkolzin.  That was on June 21st 2019. 
 

hmmm but 2018 was when things started to look better for the first time in years. Petey came into the league. Then QH at the end of the season. And Brock still had the upsides and Bo as well.  You mean we should have stripped down at that point and go for a top pick in 2020 and 2021?

 

interesting. Maybe you have a good point there. We sure could use a defenceman or two now. 

 

53 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

June 22nd 2019, the very next day after that, JB made clear he was NOT going to relent in his quest for the holy grail (of barely making the playoffs)  And traded away another first and third for JT Miller.

Yes he was swinging for the fences. Getting Miller helped make this team better for the short term for sure. I don’t regret that trade though. 
 

53 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

The very fact that some are confused about if there actually was a rebuild going on, even while management was banning the word, is proof enough that there was no clear direction. Which is a recipe for disaster.

As @Alflives claims, it’s the owner!! #selltheteam

 

You have to acknowledge that he had to fill the NHL roster as well as fill the prospect pipeline. Balancing that is near impossible. In the end, he didn’t pull it off but he at least let us some good pieces behind so that doing a retool actually might work this time. 
 

Like Gillis, Allvin was left with two potential hall of famers in Petey and Hughes as well as a top ten goalie in Demko. And not too barren of a prospect pool with Podz, Hogs, Klim, Rathbone, Jurmo, which have since then been upgraded with Lekkerinaki and Raty and two high picks in 2023. 
 

[lmm]

On 2/21/2023 at 12:06 PM, spook007 said:

Yeah it didn't work, withy neither Willie nor Green.

Kind of wonder, if this was all down to bad coaching, or in part down to poor team building. Willie did get the team to the playoffs (poor performance v Flames). The roster the year after was done. Going through the roster makes one realise how poor it really was...

Bill LaForge was a bad coach

he lasted 20 games

If a GM allows bad coaching to hang around for 8 years, it's on the GM

Likewise if the Prez allows a bad GM ... oh wait

 

at least Darryl Sutter fired himself

 

 

 

 

 

[jyu]

3 hours ago, Fred65 said:

A question if I may how do you adjust thinking when some have the advantage of picking top 5 and other are firmly at the late end of the draft due to success in the league ?

I'd say that for one picking in the top 5 or top 10, you are rebuilding/retooling so you want to identify and draft star players into your core. For the one that is picking in the 20+, your success at the draft should be measured by the number of NHL games they play for you as your team is already in contention and those guys can help make the final push.

 

Let's look at Gillis first.

 

The league wide success rate as per @DSVIIis about 50% for 20-30 range and 78% for picks 6-10.

 

Gillis's hit rate in the 20+ range was 0-for-4 (2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 -- Shinkaruk). Very poor indeed. He traded away a first in 2010 even, so he had one less at bat.

 

And in fact, he really could have saved himself if he hit on these picks from 2009 to 2011 because the core players really needed a push in 2012-2015.

 

His hit rate on picks 6-10 range was 2-for-2: 2008 (Hodgson) and 2013 (Horvat). Horvat can be considered a star (2-time all star) so he did very well there -- although I don't know how they defined a star in compiling the stats shared by @DSVII.

 

Hodgson, well, he was a bonafide NHLer but his career was shortened and Gillis made a trade for Kassian who didn't pan out. In the end Hodgson didn't play enough games for us, like 70 games. So from that perspective, Hodgson could be seen as failed draft pick.

 

Although Gillis didn't do great at the draft table, I have and would like to defend Gillis. Gillis's priorities were to win the cup. Drafting and filling the prospect pool was not his primary goal, which he himself regretted later. The cap has been in place only for a few years when he took over and some teams were still going for the cup by mortgaging he future like the pre-cap era and for those teams, they did not put enough emphasis on picks.

 

The trend is completely different now. If Gillis were the GM now and he had the same team, I bet you Gillis will perform better at the draft.

 

As for Benning...

 

The hit rate on picks in the range 2-5 is 93%. His went 1-for-2 as he hit on Petey but struck out on Juolevi. On the surface, it looks like he didn't do well there... but then, on the metric of finding a star player, he succeeded. The league wide rate for finding a star with picks 2-5 is only 34% (I'm surprised to be honest -- I thought it would be much higher).

 

His hit rate on 6-10 is 1-for-2. Win on Hughes but lost on Virtanen -- I'm not counting Podz for now. The league wide success rate is 78% and for finding star is 13%. So again, he find a star player.

 

And he also hit on range 20-30: McCann and Boeser. McCann didn't play enough games for us and the subsequent trade didn't work out so maybe that is a failed pick but Boeser is still on the team and have played 370 games for us. We all have our opinion on Boeser these days but I'd say that pick was a success.

 

So Benning went 1-for-2 in that range. 

 

I honestly think he wasn't bad at all.

 

Let me put it this way. If he has hit on JV pick and OJ pick, say he got Ehlers and Sergachev.... He would be the only GM that I can think of, that have hit on all 100% of his 1st rounders.

 

 

 

 

 

[lmm]

5 hours ago, Conscience said:

Benning should be in prison for his negligence 

I think Buy outs should come off the signing GMs pay