[Report/Rumour] Elias Pettersson Contract Talks

[aGENT]

6 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

• If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR Pool is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap

Not really that hard to comprehend? you can keep adding players to LTIR and u still only get 3mil

That's not remotely how it works when we are compliant. Which we likely will be. The $3m is only an example. And yes you can add players 

Edited June 12, 2023 by aGENT

[wai_lai416]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

That's not remotely how it works when we are compliant. Which we will be.

ya IF we are compliant which is not what we are talking about?? you are talking about having the 5mil we have from the "LTIR" players to spend? aka putting us at say 89mil to start the season?? so how are we "compliant" without moving at least a myer? do you think it's just as easy to move myer if we are at 89mil panicing to be cap compliant?? or would it be easier to move myer if we are at 83mil and compliant? which is the whole point teams will be asking for more than what they normally would if they see you over the cap and struggling vs if we are under the cap and not necessary have to make that move.. spending the "LTIR" money before you move out cap is the dumbest move this management can make

[aGENT]

54 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

ya IF we are compliant which is not what we are talking about?? you are talking about having the 5mil we have from the "LTIR" players to spend? aka putting us at say 89mil to start the season?? so how are we "compliant" without moving at least a myer? do you think it's just as easy to move myer if we are at 89mil panicing to be cap compliant?? or would it be easier to move myer if we are at 83mil and compliant? which is the whole point teams will be asking for more than what they normally would if they see you over the cap and struggling vs if we are under the cap and not necessary have to make that move.. spending the "LTIR" money before you move out cap is the dumbest move this management can make

We can be compliant now simply by assigning Podkolzin, putting guys on LTIR and recalling him after 

 

And no, I'm not saying we should spend that, I'm saying we can. And no it doesn't matter if Boeser gets hurt after, he would get added to our LTIR pool as well. All you're quote illustrates is how to maximize LTIR. You want to get as close to the cap limit as you can to maximize your LTIR space. If  you're $1m away from the cap in your $4m example, you only get $3m in relief. If you're $5 dollars away from the cap, you get $3,999,995 with a $4m player. It doesn't limit your LTIR to that if you happen to have extra players later at all. You don't know what you're talking about.

[wai_lai416]

11 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We can be compliant now simply by assigning Podkolzin, putting guys on LTIR and recalling him after 

 

And no, I'm not saying we should spend that, I'm saying we can. And no it doesn't matter if Boeser gets hurt after, he would get added to our LTIR pool as well. All you're quote illustrates is how to maximize LTIR. You want to get as close to the cap limit as you can to maximize your LTIR space. If  you're $1m away from the cap in your $4m example, you only get $3m in relief. If you're $5 dollars away from the cap, you get $3,999,995 with a $4m player. It doesn't limit your LTIR to that if you happen to have extra players later at all. You don't know what you're talking about.

if that is just to maximize ltir like u claim.. then we can just spend right up to 5.75mil over the cap and have 5.75mil LTIR  who needs to get cap compliant on day 1 zzz you don't know what you are talking about or maybe we both dont know what we are talking about.

[aGENT]

14 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

if that is just to maximize ltir like u claim.. then we can just spend right up to 5.75mil over the cap and have 5.75mil LTIR  who needs to get cap compliant on day 1 zzz you don't know what you are talking about or maybe we both dont know what we are talking about.

Nope...just you 

[wai_lai416]

3 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I'm inclined to think @aGENT knows what he's talking about.

From last year.  We had the perfect cap usage by bringing our Cap Space used to $82.5 million, allowing us to use all of Ferlund's cap hit as LTIR (no wastage).

yes because we were at or under the cap to start the season. but right now we are not. the point we are arguing is you don't gain additional LTIR room if you start the season OVER the cap. if say we are at 84.1mil placing the LTIR players on ltir after the season started.. we'll stlil only be at 84.1mil total cap space. say another players get injured and go on LTIR it'll still remain at 84.1mil. if adding boeser to the LTIR later on would add 6.65mil cap to the LTIR.. then why wouldn't we get more than the 600k LTIR relief for being over the cap to begin the season? 

 

sure we can move a player here and there to get cap compliant as suggested but point is we can't spend the ltir till after the season begins if we are staying status quo. 

[wai_lai416]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Nope...just you 

ok so please explain why if we are over the cap by 3mil and place a 4mil player we only get 3mil cap relief while adding a boeser later on we'd get the full 6.75?

[aGENT]

12 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

ok so please explain why if we are over the cap by 3mil and place a 4mil player we only get 3mil cap relief while adding a boeser later on we'd get the full 6.75?

Ugggh, no....

 

If the cap is $83,500,000 and your payroll is at $82,500,000 and you put a $4m dollar player on LTIR prior to the season, you only get $3m in relief as you need to hit he cap ceiling first before you get LTIR relief. This is why it was a big deal that the Canucks managed to get their opening roster EXACTLY at the cap last year and have no "wasted" LTIR relief, as @6of1_halfdozenofother noted. If you then add LTIR players later, you get whatever their contract is, as additional relief. So you'd have that original $3m ($1m less than "ideal") + whatever new injured players cap hit is.

[EdgarM]

4 hours ago, Gurn said:

funny I see this, in various forms, all over this forum

 

"If E.P wants to win a cup he will take less"

 

But I rarely see

"If the team wants to win the cup, they will not over pay their top stars".

 

Like who the heck ever signs for less than they  got offered?

Be it hockey, or any other work of life.

 

 

4 hours ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

The way I see it is, 

Some posters: "Oh, he's gotta take less than he's really worth!  Because cup!  and team loyalty!"

Same posters, when faced with the same proposition: "Oh nonono, don't you dare pay me less than what I'm worth!"

 

You see the point you guys miss is "What does he thinks he is worth". He may think "you guys aren't winning nothing without me" or he may be thinking " I want to do my best to help this team win a championship". See the difference? 

I think the difference between these two personalities is at least a couple of million. 

I am thinking Bo was the guy in the first example.

[EdgarM]

31 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

So have you submitted your request to your HR to pay you 10-20% less than what you're earning?  Your savings would definitely create a winning culture in the business world, where profits are everything.

 

You haven't yet?  Go, go do it now.  Put your money where your mouth is!

I take what they give me, it's reasonable, I am not greedy.

If they asked me to go out back and play games and still get paid?.....Milions? I would definitely take what ever they gave me.

[JamesB]

5 hours ago, RomanP said:

It always makes me laugh when people talk about “low tax” in Florida (and some other states). Do you guys realize that US tax structure is very similar to Canadian? There’s a much larger federal income tax that everybody pays. In the US it’s 37% for the tax bracket NHL players are in. I’m not saying state/provincial taxes are not important, but they are much smaller compared to the federal tax.

Florida has no state income tax. The top marginal tax rate (which is the relevant rate for NHL players) is 37%, which is the federal rate. In BC the top marginal rate (federal and provincial) has risen to 53.5%. That is a big difference. The difference is not quite a big as these numbers suggest as there are various complications for NHL players related to where the live in the off-season and where they are deemed to have earned their income,along with special provisions for professional athletes. But a salary of 9 million in Florida would translate to an equivalent value of about $10 million in BC.

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Ugggh, no....

 

If the cap is $83,500,000 and your payroll is at $82,500,000 and you put a $4m dollar player on LTIR prior to the season, you only get $3m in relief as you need to hit he cap ceiling first before you get LTIR relief. This is why it was a big deal that the Canucks managed to get their opening roster EXACTLY at the cap last year and have no "wasted" LTIR relief, as @6of1_halfdozenofother noted. If you then add LTIR players later, you get whatever their contract is, as additional relief. So you'd have that original $3m ($1m less than "ideal") + whatever new injured players cap hit is.

why are u keep referring to scenario where we are under the cap etc.. i'm talking about if we are over the cap to start the season which is very likely to happen if management decides to spend on july 1st to get what they need. if we are at 84.5mil and the cap is 83.5mil we'll get 1mil cap relief regardless of how many players we stick on LTIR which is what i'm referring to. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, JamesB said:

Florida has no state income tax. The top marginal tax rate (which is the relevant rate for NHL players) is 37%, which is the federal rate. In BC the top marginal rate (federal and provincial) has risen to 53.5%. That is a big difference. The difference is not quite a big as these numbers suggest as there are various complications for NHL players related to where the live in the off-season and where they are deemed to have earned their income,along with special provisions for professional athletes. But a salary of 9 million in Florida would translate to an equivalent value of about $10 million in BC.

And the guys are paid in US dollars but live here. After conversion that 9 million is closer to 12. 
Players choose to play in the US because they can live in anonymity. No one recognizes or scrutinizes them or their families. Snd as you point out the tax laws are such these guys can pay a lot less. 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, wai_lai416 said:

why are u keep referring to scenario where we are under the cap etc.. i'm talking about if we are over the cap to start the season which is very likely to happen if management decides to spend on july 1st to get what they need. if we are at 84.5mil and the cap is 83.5mil we'll get 1mil cap relief regardless of how many players we stick on LTIR which is what i'm referring to. 

Nope.

[JamesB]

8 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Then all the Canadian teams should just move to the States, and that means California and NY based teams will never win because their state taxes are higher than Texas and Florida.

 

 

The tax advantage that teams like Flordia, Vegas, and Dallas have does not guarantee success, but it does improve the probabilities. It certainly plays a role in the relatively poor performance of Canadian teams overall in the recent past. 

 

Canadian teams still have a shot but they have to be smart and lucky.

 

Young players, after being drafted, don't have much choice about where they play, but  teams in low-tax states definitely have an advantage in the UFA market. 

 

That is one reason why it does not make sense for teams like Vancouver to rely on the UFA market.  The key is to rely on the draft and hope that players who come here put down roots and are willing to leave some money on the table (after tax) to stay here, as  players like the Sedins and Hamhuis did. 

 

 

[wai_lai416]

6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Nope.

whatever floats your boat 

[aGENT]

22 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

whatever floats your boat 

Bruh, whatever your theory is, is not how it works. The closer you can get to the cap with your opening roster, is really the only thing that matters in regards to maximizing LTIR.

 

That's it.  There's no limit on how much LTIR you have. If we sign Bear and he is on LTIR because of his shoulder, we can add him to our LTIR. We will just need to plan for (or make space for) his eventual return.

 

So if we can max our cap like last year, we'll be able to use ALL of Poolman and Pearson's caps for LTIR. If we don't maximize our cap, we'll "loose" whatever the difference is. That's it. If anyone else ends up on LTIR we add their cap to whatever we have maxed, or slightly below max.

[DownUndaCanuck]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:50 PM, wai_lai416 said:

so how are we suppose to get a top 4 defenceman and a 3rd line center without doing #3?? or do you propose we go over the cap some more so we can handicap ourself further? we basically can't do anything until we move cap out we do not want to be in LTIR overage before the season starts as it messes with the LTIR for the rest of the season.. if we are over the cap by 3mil to start the season.. literally doesn't matter how many player we stick on LTIR or how big their cap hit is.. we can't get more than 3mil of LTIR pool total.. 

and if we do 1 or 2?? before 3?? it puts us even further into cap hell and what team out there will gladly take any of the players u want to move for cap reason without asking for a sweetener?.. we have 0 players that we want to move other teams would gladly take off our hands for free to begin with and makes it even tougher if we go do 1 and 2 before 3

Boeser + Rathbone for Marcus Pettersson

Garland to CBJ for Kuraly

 

Oh look, done 1, 2 and 3 in a couple of simple moves. Surely it can be done.

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Alflives said:

And the guys are paid in US dollars but live here. After conversion that 9 million is closer to 12. 
Players choose to play in the US because they can live in anonymity. No one recognizes or scrutinizes them or their families. Snd as you point out the tax laws are such these guys can pay a lot less. 

Alf we've talked about this before.   Any player can buy a house anywhere, but glad your taking more notice.   A ton of Canadian players who play in the US, buy homes in Canada.   A lot of players are choosing the US now, more than ever since covid.   US players also buy property in Canada.  Have been whining about this for years ...because saw the trend years ago.    Anyone notice that low tax teams usually end up in the final four?   Or are able to build a contender easier?  

 

 

   Hasn't become a media thing until maybe 18 months ago but it's gaining steam.   UFA's during covid,  preferred the US destinations, because of their lax covid rules, less of a fish bowl and of course a larger wallet.    Conversion rates don't matter.    Myers enjoys BC but is American.    So it does go the other way too, and personally think Northern European guys like Swedes and Fins also see parts of Canada as a good destination, similar climate, they love winter  and winter sports (Fins especially) and are already used to high taxes.    The only US teams that pay between us and Alberta teams (46.5ish instead of 53%) are the CALI and NY teams, they have jock tax.     The majority pay 36.6 - 42%.     That's a much thicker pocket book.   

Bobrovksy... and Barkov, actually take home about what McDavid does ...Despite the 2.5 cap hit difference.   Those TB, Vegas, Dallas, Seattle, Florida ARI teams have a distinct tax advantage.  COL and PIT aren't/weren't far off either.  Miller actually lost 2.2 million in cash.   Sure he's stoked he finally got top line and top six minutes.   And show grateful he is to Vancouver for giving  him the chance.   And rewarded us by signing.    We aren't up sh!t creek as far as competitive advantages go compared to WNP.    But we are not exactly in a good spot either.    One of the reason's Dubas was taken to the cleaners is TO shares the same tax bracket as us.   OTT and MTL sign some questionable deals.   

 

As an aside, we used to be on par with the Alberta teams during the Sedin era.  Same provincial tax bracket.    Not anymore.   Rutherford already admitted he didn't understand this market, what he anticipated after leaving PIT as far as making deals (signing players too) was a bit out of whack with what he was used too.    JB always seemed to overpay a little bit, or added that one extra year.   Thankfully we've continued with what we are good at, and that's acquiring Swedish talent.   

Edited June 13, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

For reference, MT at 9.5, will take home more money than EP at 11.   

 

MT takes home 6.025 ish... EP 5.25 ish ... at these cap hits. 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by IBatch