[Report/Rumour] Elias Pettersson Contract Talks

[Provost]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

If we have to overpay to keep Petey then he should understand that players will need to go to cover his big paycheque. We would most likely trade his buddy Brock and Garland to make room. I doubt we’d trade Hronek. 
 

We’d have to rely on getting ELC contracts into the lineup. Lekkerimaki, Raty, Klimovich, Willander would all have to be on the team. We could make it work even at $14 million per year. Question is does Petey want to sabotage the club from winning the cup?  

We have been trying to trade Brock and Garland for quite a long time now.

 

For a team like Vegas, Petey doesn’t have to choose winning or money.  He can get paid big bucks, have much lower taxes, and be on a contender.  With the core and history they have, they can fill out the bottom half of their roster with cheap aging veterans on short term deals who want another kick at the Cup.  There is a cadre of guys lien that every year who can being surplus value to a team.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, Provost said:

We have been trying to trade Brock and Garland for quite a long time now.

 

For a team like Vegas, Petey doesn’t have to choose winning or money.  He can get paid big bucks, have much lower taxes, and be on a contender.  With the core and history they have, they can fill out the bottom half of their roster with cheap aging veterans on short term deals who want another kick at the Cup.  There is a cadre of guys lien that every year who can being surplus value to a team.

Vancouver would match any offer, so Petey wouldn't have a say in anything.  We can add sweeteners to the deals to move both Boeser and Garland, so it would cost us picks plus have a monster contract on the books.  If he wanted to force a trade he wouldn't be signing an offer sheet, he simply would sign his qualifying offer and let the Canucks figure out the next move...

[N4ZZY]

8 hours ago, Toews said:

Can't say I "know" anything but I do find it suspicious that similar comments were made the last time there was talk of a new contract. I am not saying Petey is lying that he wants to win, but imo it seems to be bit of a negotiation tactic as well.

 

I also find it weird that Petey's agents made comments just a few months earlier stating that they were looking to get a deal done. Somehow now its decided that he isn't even going to negotiate until next off-season? Something seems off right here, management isn't going to come out and talk about it but I am sure based on the agent's comments they had to have some preliminary discussions.

 

I am speculating but I think those discussions weren't particularly fruitful. I think whether it was term or dollars, there was probably a wide enough gulf for the discussions to be shelved from Petey's camp. He will have a lot of leverage next year, as if the discussions go nowhere again he can just accept the qualifying offer and head to UFA. I do ultimately believe that both sides will be sufficiently motivated next off-season to make compromises to get a deal done. Of course I acknowledge the possibility that I will be proven wrong but I don't believe for one second he has any intention of leaving. He is currently the face of the franchise and from a financial stand point it makes no sense to throw away all the equity he has earned in this market to go somewhere else. There are no guarantees that he will win a Cup with his next team.

 

Even Horvat who has been frequently mentioned in this thread wanted to stay but the Canucks weren't ready to meet his lofty contract demands. That will not be the case with Pettersson, management knows there is no way they achieve any of the goals they have set out without him. Ultimately I don't think we will particularly love the terms of that contract as we probably won't be getting much of a discount but I do believe it will get done eventually.

To be fair, if Petey was traded, you can get a haul for him. But that would mean an actual rebuild. Can this current management actually stomach that? Can Francesco? I mean, we all know the answer to that question. So next. 

 

[N4ZZY]

53 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Vancouver would match any offer, so Petey wouldn't have a say in anything.  We can add sweeteners to the deals to move both Boeser and Garland, so it would cost us picks plus have a monster contract on the books.  If he wanted to force a trade he wouldn't be signing an offer sheet, he simply would sign his qualifying offer and let the Canucks figure out the next move...

Do you think Petey does that? 

 

[Mando27]

I think we see more and more of these young talents start moving around in the future. They want to win not get stuck in mediocrity for their whole career like Mcdavid, can't really blame them tbh.

[Elias Pettersson]

8 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

Do you think Petey does that? 

 

No. 

[AnthonyG]

On 9/1/2023 at 11:13 PM, wai_lai416 said:

challenge me?? we gave up 65 goals in 19 games against the playoff teams since RT took over and with a healthy demko down the stretch.. we were massive outchanced out shot attempted in 90% of those games.. after demko came back he was good on some and very mediocre on others.. the save % average was around .913 914.. demko was at or above that number 8 out of 17 games and sub .900 in 8 of them.. this was when he was healthy and started to look good again.that's 3.42 goals against per game and that was with demko starting to look good and the team playing with more "structure" that number needs to drop to closer to 2.5 for us to be competitive that's a huge massive ask. their corsi rating during even strength in games since RT took over against the good teams is hovering around 40% meaning we are usually outplayed on even strength

 

we gave up 172 goals in 45 games against the playoff teams the entire season.. let's take away your empty net goals we gave up a grand total of 13 that's still 159 in 45 games.. we gave up 5 empty net goals since RT took over so no empty net goals ain't the reason why our record is so bad against those teams.

 

so against the rangers we would have lost 5-4 instead of 6-4 

2-1 against the bruins 

3-1 aginst the kings

2-0 against the king

4-2 against the krakens

 

so we would have still lost by mutliple goals in 3 of the 5 games?? 

Sooo I said all 16 playoff teams… you listed a few divisional opponents. 

You do realize we had 37 games decided by 1 goal right?

13 of those were regulation losses. Thats just the games decided by 1 goal with Spencer Martin, Collin Delia and Demko’s horrible start that resulted in that many 1 goal games. 13 points we missed out on which would have put us in a playoff spot. Then you go look at the games where an empty netter was added, which I believe was 13 games where an empty netter sealed out fate? Then you look at points missed in OT. We had plenty of opportunities to gain atleast a point. Despite what our record showed, it was a lot closer than you and so many others are willing to believe and if we had just league average goaltending and not the absolute worst goaltending, we would absolutely have made playoffs.

 

You and sooooooo many others would rather view and speak negatively because negativity is so easy to feed into and keep the bitching and complaining going on endlessly. Positivity doesnt get that same attention because it takes effort to focus on positivity. To me there is plenty of positivity looking back at last season that gives me confidence that this is going to be a good year.

[wai_lai416]

18 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Sooo I said all 16 playoff teams… you listed a few divisional opponents. 

You do realize we had 37 games decided by 1 goal right?

13 of those were regulation losses. Thats just the games decided by 1 goal with Spencer Martin, Collin Delia and Demko’s horrible start that resulted in that many 1 goal games. 13 points we missed out on which would have put us in a playoff spot. Then you go look at the games where an empty netter was added, which I believe was 13 games where an empty netter sealed out fate? Then you look at points missed in OT. We had plenty of opportunities to gain atleast a point. Despite what our record showed, it was a lot closer than you and so many others are willing to believe and if we had just league average goaltending and not the absolute worst goaltending, we would absolutely have made playoffs.

 

You and sooooooo many others would rather view and speak negatively because negativity is so easy to feed into and keep the bitching and complaining going on endlessly. Positivity doesnt get that same attention because it takes effort to focus on positivity. To me there is plenty of positivity looking back at last season that gives me confidence that this is going to be a good year.

So are those divisional opponent not playoff teams? I listed games that were after tocchet took over not sure how hard that is to comprehend. But ya let’s ignore the facts. In 80% of the games since tocchet taken over against the better teams we were massively out shot attempted on goal chances and required the goalie to stand on his head. 
 

I don’t give a crap how many games we lost by 1 goal. Losing by 1 goal losing by 10 goals still a loss. Fact still stands we blow against the good teams. You have to be a huge homer to say we were the better team in majority of the games and lost coz of goaltending. You also never factored in a we had a bunch of the 1 goal game both ways because of empty net goals score for and against to make it closer than it really was. 
 

I bet you were prolly saying the same damn thing the previous season when you said there’s plenty of positive to look back prior to the start of last season. 
 

can this team be good? Sure it can it requires a lot going right for them and especially the goalie. If Demko ain’t performing at vezina caliber? They are prolly in trouble.. unlike others like Minnesota LA even Vegas in the west or Colorado. They made the playoff with mediocre goaltending and Colorado even won it with average goaltending. 

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[PhillipBlunt]

56 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

Makes sense to me. I can't how Pettersson's choice to wait it out is an issue. The team has to be better. He's definitely part of that, mind you. 

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Sooo I said all 16 playoff teams… you listed a few divisional opponents. 

You do realize we had 37 games decided by 1 goal right?

13 of those were regulation losses. Thats just the games decided by 1 goal with Spencer Martin, Collin Delia and Demko’s horrible start that resulted in that many 1 goal games. 13 points we missed out on which would have put us in a playoff spot. Then you go look at the games where an empty netter was added, which I believe was 13 games where an empty netter sealed out fate? Then you look at points missed in OT. We had plenty of opportunities to gain atleast a point. Despite what our record showed, it was a lot closer than you and so many others are willing to believe and if we had just league average goaltending and not the absolute worst goaltending, we would absolutely have made playoffs.

 

You and sooooooo many others would rather view and speak negatively because negativity is so easy to feed into and keep the bitching and complaining going on endlessly. Positivity doesnt get that same attention because it takes effort to focus on positivity. To me there is plenty of positivity looking back at last season that gives me confidence that this is going to be a good year.

 

I like reality and being correct above either brimming positivity or self deflating negativity myself. 

 

Reality was we ended up 12 points out of a playoff spot whether they were 1 goal losses or 5 goal losses they were losses. Every other team could make up these silly scenarios where they make the playoffs too. We've tinkered around the edges and addressed our league worst defence, but we haven't brought in any high impact players (besides Hronek).

 

As you say there are definitely some positive spin angles but they don't really mean anything concerning this year. Winning a bunch of no account games versus bottom feeders in garbage time doesn't really prove anything at all and has no bearing on this season.

 

We have 6 new faces looking at full time roles and a lot of competition in Seattle, Winnipeg, St. Louis, and Calgary for the wildcards. It could be a good year, or it could be a bad year. Our last two years and the starts we've had should have everyone guessing at what kind of team we'll have this year. I really hope we get off to an average start at least and we are in a position to compete for a wildcard. I think that's a pretty realistic and even dare I say positive outlook.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[AnthonyG]

On 9/1/2023 at 10:22 PM, AnthonyG said:

I challenge you to go and do your own research and look at our record and scores vs the top 16 teams in the league last season, while dealing with Demko’s horrendous start, Martins 3.99GAA, thats GAA not GPA, dont get that confused please oh and also factor in Delia’s 3.28GAA. Ive already done it once and looked into it and posted it here on the forums, just how many games were within a goal or 2 (dont forget typically 2 goal losses have an empty netter) I dare you to post the record and each individual scores.

 

On 9/1/2023 at 11:13 PM, wai_lai416 said:

challenge me?? we gave up 65 goals in 19 games against the playoff teams since RT took over and with a healthy demko down the stretch.

 

so against the rangers we would have lost 5-4 instead of 6-4 

2-1 against the bruins 

3-1 aginst the kings

2-0 against the king

4-2 against the krakens

 

so we would have still lost by mutliple goals in 3 of the 5 games?? 

Thats all 16 playoff teams and only 19 games played? Weird.

 

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Sooo I said all 16 playoff teams…

See bolded in my first quote

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

1) So are those divisional opponent not playoff teams?
 

2) I listed games that were after tocchet took over not sure how hard that is to comprehend.
 

3) But ya let’s ignore the facts. 

1) they are 1 goal losses and several of them are against top teams/playoff teams. Not only that, but NYR LAKx2 VGK BOS and Krakens =/= top 16 teams and all games played vs playoff teams.

 

2) I asked for top 16 teams, you returned with a few games where Tocchet took over. Idk how hard that is to comprehend, but its safe to say challenge failed.

 

3) the facts are in bold at the top incase you forgot or just ignored?

[AnthonyG]

@wai_lai416
Okay seeing how you failed the challenge of doing some research of your own on the 16 playoff teams… heres how it goes

 

I’ll start with divisional teams and I’ll be doing 5v5 strictly because it shows truly the difference in who is better and by how much. Having a good PP vs the most dog shit PK doesnt tell much of the story when your goaltending is massively underperforming. 
 

vs Pacific

 

vs VGK 1-2-0 

GF 7

GA 10

 

vs EDM 1-2-0

GF 7

GA 5

 

vs LAK 2-2-0

GF 5

GA 6

vs SEA 2-2-0

GF 8

GA 14

 

vs the Centrals playoff teams

 

vs COL 2-1-0

GF 6

GA 4

 

vs DAL 3-0-0

GF 9

GA 4

 

vs MIN 0-2-1

GF 3

GA 5

 

vs WPG 0-3-0

GF 5

GA 10

 

vs the Atlantic

vs BOS 0-2-0

GF 1

GA 2

vs TOR 1-1-0

GF 2

GA 2

 

vs TBL 0-2-0

GF 2

GA 7

 

vs FLA 0-2-0

GF 3

GA 7

 

vs the Metropolitan 

 

vs CAR 1-1-0

GF 3

GA 5

 

vs NJD 0-1-1

GF 4

GA 6

vs NYR 0-2-0

GF 6

GA 9

 

vs NYI 1-1-0

GF 5

GA 7

 

 

At 5v5 we held our own quite well in terms of scoring when you look at the QoC. Now factor in Delia and Martins atrocious GAA and sv%

We absolutely can compete.

where did we suck last year? In net and on the PK.

What did we do about it? Addressed the PK and have a healthy Demko ready to redeem himself. 

5v5 we can score just as good as anyone. 
One of only 2 teams to have 4 70+ point scorers last year. Make the saves we should make and kill a few more penalties and we are most certainly a playoff team. We had a -55GSAA. Way too many garbage goals to overcome.

[Gawdzukes]

18 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

 

Thats all 16 playoff teams and only 19 games played? Weird.

 

See bolded in my first quote

1) they are 1 goal losses and several of them are against top teams/playoff teams. Not only that, but NYR LAKx2 VGK BOS and Krakens =/= top 16 teams and all games played vs playoff teams.

 

2) I asked for top 16 teams, you returned with a few games where Tocchet took over. Idk how hard that is to comprehend, but its safe to say challenge failed.

 

3) the facts are in bold at the top incase you forgot or just ignored?

 

Not trying to get in the middle of your debate but I do find it quite interesting. They actually only played 5 playoff teams after Demko returned playing Dallas and LA a whopping 6 times (low scoring games)! I'm not quite as good as procuring the stats like you guys but my brute force method tells me we played 10 games against playoff teams since Demko returned Feb 27th, and he played in 8.

 

It looks like Demko went 5-3 in 8 games, winning two in OT/SO, while giving up 3,1,4,2,2,1,2,4 in reverse order of schedule (only 1 empty net goal that I noticed not included). Pretty decent but not enough to really provide concrete evidence of anything. 2.3 GAA in those games is a fairly good result though.

 

One positive there is he definitely looked like his old self down the stretch. I really worry about his health and ability to handle anymore than 55-60 games though. Our backup situation is worrisome unless Silovs comes in guns a blazing. He's in Van and practicing today already so that's great news. 

[250Integra]

10 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

@wai_lai416
Okay seeing how you failed the challenge of doing some research of your own on the 16 playoff teams… heres how it goes

 

I’ll start with divisional teams and I’ll be doing 5v5 strictly because it shows truly the difference in who is better and by how much. Having a good PP vs the most dog shit PK doesnt tell much of the story when your goaltending is massively underperforming. 
 

vs Pacific

 

vs VGK 1-2-0 

GF 7

GA 10

 

vs EDM 1-2-0

GF 7

GA 5

 

vs LAK 2-2-0

GF 5

GA 6

vs SEA 2-2-0

GF 8

GA 14

 

vs the Centrals playoff teams

 

vs COL 2-1-0

GF 6

GA 4

 

vs DAL 3-0-0

GF 9

GA 4

 

vs MIN 0-2-1

GF 3

GA 5

 

vs WPG 0-3-0

GF 5

GA 10

 

vs the Atlantic

vs BOS 0-2-0

GF 1

GA 2

vs TOR 1-1-0

GF 2

GA 2

 

vs TBL 0-2-0

GF 2

GA 7

 

vs FLA 0-2-0

GF 3

GA 7

 

vs the Metropolitan 

 

vs CAR 1-1-0

GF 3

GA 5

 

vs NJD 0-1-1

GF 4

GA 6

vs NYR 0-2-0

GF 6

GA 9

 

vs NYI 1-1-0

GF 5

GA 7

 

 

At 5v5 we held our own quite well in terms of scoring when you look at the QoC. Now factor in Delia and Martins atrocious GAA and sv%

We absolutely can compete.

where did we suck last year? In net and on the PK.

What did we do about it? Addressed the PK and have a healthy Demko ready to redeem himself. 

5v5 we can score just as good as anyone. 
One of only 2 teams to have 4 70+ point scorers last year. Make the saves we should make and kill a few more penalties and we are most certainly a playoff team. We had a -55GSAA. Way too many garbage goals to overcome.

I hope and pray that Demko stays healthy or else we're relying on Spencer Martin or Rookie Arthurs Silovs 

 

[Gawdzukes]

5 minutes ago, 250Integra said:

I hope and pray that Demko stays healthy or else we're relying on Spencer Martin or Rookie Arthurs Silovs 

 

 

Yup, make sure we have plenty of booze ready if that's the case.  I'm really hoping and I actually do think Silovs will be the backup. He's the far better goalie imo. Martin doesn't belong in the NHL.

[wai_lai416]

29 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

@wai_lai416
Okay seeing how you failed the challenge of doing some research of your own on the 16 playoff teams… heres how it goes

 

I’ll start with divisional teams and I’ll be doing 5v5 strictly because it shows truly the difference in who is better and by how much. Having a good PP vs the most dog shit PK doesnt tell much of the story when your goaltending is massively underperforming. 
 

vs Pacific

 

vs VGK 1-2-0 

GF 7

GA 10

 

vs EDM 1-2-0

GF 7

GA 5

 

vs LAK 2-2-0

GF 5

GA 6

vs SEA 2-2-0

GF 8

GA 14

 

vs the Centrals playoff teams

 

vs COL 2-1-0

GF 6

GA 4

 

vs DAL 3-0-0

GF 9

GA 4

 

vs MIN 0-2-1

GF 3

GA 5

 

vs WPG 0-3-0

GF 5

GA 10

 

vs the Atlantic

vs BOS 0-2-0

GF 1

GA 2

vs TOR 1-1-0

GF 2

GA 2

 

vs TBL 0-2-0

GF 2

GA 7

 

vs FLA 0-2-0

GF 3

GA 7

 

vs the Metropolitan 

 

vs CAR 1-1-0

GF 3

GA 5

 

vs NJD 0-1-1

GF 4

GA 6

vs NYR 0-2-0

GF 6

GA 9

 

vs NYI 1-1-0

GF 5

GA 7

 

 

At 5v5 we held our own quite well in terms of scoring when you look at the QoC. Now factor in Delia and Martins atrocious GAA and sv%

We absolutely can compete.

where did we suck last year? In net and on the PK.

What did we do about it? Addressed the PK and have a healthy Demko ready to redeem himself. 

5v5 we can score just as good as anyone. 
One of only 2 teams to have 4 70+ point scorers last year. Make the saves we should make and kill a few more penalties and we are most certainly a playoff team. We had a -55GSAA. Way too many garbage goals to overcome.

I literally quoted games after tocchet took over and I said it too.. who gives a f about the games when Bruce was coaching? Is tocchet going to employ Bruce coaching style? Not sure what’s so hard to understand yet you keep listing games prior. I might as well list games from previous season or records from previous coaches while I’m at it.

 

and it seems to me previous season have so much bearing on next season then you might as well point back to the bubble and say that’s the real Canucks and we are going to play like that next season the core is literally the same minus Horvat and throw in hronek. I forgot what happened the following season after the bubble because there was so many positives and optimism coming out of the bubble. 
 

our defensive changed so much over the off season whatever happened last season is literally irrelevant. The game is played on the ice not on paper. We don’t even know if the defence will mesh or not with players playing above their role they played their entire career

 

only thing that’s relevant is the coaching style. I’m not a fan of it because it doesn’t seem to work against the good teams.

Edited September 5, 2023 by wai_lai416

[Gawdzukes]

42 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

@wai_lai416
Okay seeing how you failed the challenge of doing some research of your own on the 16 playoff teams… heres how it goes

 

I’ll start with divisional teams and I’ll be doing 5v5 strictly because it shows truly the difference in who is better and by how much. Having a good PP vs the most dog shit PK doesnt tell much of the story when your goaltending is massively underperforming. 
 

vs Pacific

 

vs VGK 1-2-0 

GF 7

GA 10

 

vs EDM 1-2-0

GF 7

GA 5

 

vs LAK 2-2-0

GF 5

GA 6

vs SEA 2-2-0

GF 8

GA 14

 

vs the Centrals playoff teams

 

vs COL 2-1-0

GF 6

GA 4

 

vs DAL 3-0-0

GF 9

GA 4

 

vs MIN 0-2-1

GF 3

GA 5

 

vs WPG 0-3-0

GF 5

GA 10

 

vs the Atlantic

vs BOS 0-2-0

GF 1

GA 2

vs TOR 1-1-0

GF 2

GA 2

 

vs TBL 0-2-0

GF 2

GA 7

 

vs FLA 0-2-0

GF 3

GA 7

 

vs the Metropolitan 

 

vs CAR 1-1-0

GF 3

GA 5

 

vs NJD 0-1-1

GF 4

GA 6

vs NYR 0-2-0

GF 6

GA 9

 

vs NYI 1-1-0

GF 5

GA 7

 

 

At 5v5 we held our own quite well in terms of scoring when you look at the QoC. Now factor in Delia and Martins atrocious GAA and sv%

We absolutely can compete.

where did we suck last year? In net and on the PK.

What did we do about it? Addressed the PK and have a healthy Demko ready to redeem himself. 

5v5 we can score just as good as anyone. 
One of only 2 teams to have 4 70+ point scorers last year. Make the saves we should make and kill a few more penalties and we are most certainly a playoff team. We had a -55GSAA. Way too many garbage goals to overcome.

 

6-8

5-6-1

1-7

2-5-1

=13-26-2

 

28 points against playoff teams leaving us needing about 67 points in the remaining 41 games to make the playoffs, or a 31-5-5 record. That's a tall order ... we obviously should and need to be better against the playoff teams.

 

  

19 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

I literally quoted games after tocchet took over and I said it too.. who gives a f about the games when Bruce was coaching? Is tocchet going to employ Bruce coaching style? Not sure what’s so hard to understand yet you keep listing games prior. I might as well list games from previous season or records from previous coaches while I’m at it.

 

and it seems to me previous season have so much bearing on next season then you might as well point back to the bubble and say that’s the real Canucks and we are going to play like that next season the core is literally the same minus Horvat and throw in hronek. I forgot what happened the following season after the bubble because there was so many positives and optimism coming out of the bubble. 
 

our defensive changed so much over the off season whatever happened last season is literally irrelevant. The game is played on the ice not on paper. We don’t even know if the defence will mesh or not with players playing above their role they played their entire career

 

only thing that’s relevant is the coaching style. I’m not a fan of it because it doesn’t seem to work against the good teams.

 

With regards to the coaching style I have to disagree. I am a big fan and we looked like a different team under Tocchet by the end, an actual hockey team. I do agree that getting outshot and out chanced as badly as we did is not sustainable and will not win us enough games. However I would personally put the blame on the personnel and not the coaching. We will see if 4 new faces on D can gel and change our fortunes. I think we'll be happily surprised but still challenging for a playoff spot, which will be a huge win for this group.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[AnthonyG]

14 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

6-8

5-6-1

1-7

2-5-1

=13-26-2

 

28 points against playoff teams leaving us needing about 67 points in the remaining 41 games to make the playoffs, or a 31-5-5 record. That's a tall order ... we obviously should and need to be better against the playoff teams.

Mind you we had Demko’s worst stretch of hockey, Martin and Delia who couldnt stop a beach ball, making it very challenging to win games. We could score plenty, but allowed plenty more. We had many 1 goal games vs playoff teams. It seems like a tall order, but with a healthy Demko, Petey and JT down the middle for top 6 and a better PK unit for the forwards, I have a lot of confidence. Health is of course always going to be a concern, but ultimately I like our chances. We struggled with JT at wing and when he went back to C, we tightened up and began keeping scores a bit closer