[Rumour] Canucks inquired about Sabres defenceman

[48MPHSlapShot]

Just now, Kobayashi Maru said:

+/- is so tied to the team game and not always the individual.  I think we are over-reacting him needing outright sheltering.  Ideally we would keep Joulevi and pair them together but Risto and Edler and maybe Risto and Tryamkin would likely be just fine.  Hughes Risto if we are down a few.  We need several D that can drive the play or our forwards are have no chance.

When the trend is so consistent that it stretches over 8 years and 3 separate leagues, there's a lot more to it than "it's just a bad team".

[Kobayashi Maru]

Just now, 48MPHSlapShot said:

When the trend is so consistent that it stretches over 8 years and 3 separate leagues, there's a lot more to it than "it's just a bad team".

But they were bad teams.  Buffalo has the potential to be good but they are not.  Definitely a trend to look at however.  I think it potentially brings his value to acquirable vs untouchable.  He is still young and can develop too so I’d take the risk on a 24 year old 6’4 RHD puck mover with an edge.  I think I’m just so tired of offence dying with our breakout.

[48MPHSlapShot]

4 minutes ago, Kobayashi Maru said:

But they were bad teams.  Buffalo has the potential to be good but they are not.  Definitely a trend to look at however.  I think it potentially brings his value to acquirable vs untouchable.  He is still young and can develop too so I’d take the risk on a 24 year old 6’4 RHD puck mover with an edge.  I think I’m just so tired of offence dying with our breakout.

Again, I'm game for taking a swing at him, but the proposed price is just too much as it sits right now. He's just not worth that much. Also, if he's playing 25 minutes a night for bad teams, it begs the question "How much of it is he responsible for?". If every team he's played for has been bad, and he's been the high minute man for most of those teams, and his plus/minus is significantly worse than almost everyone else on that particular team, would it not lead one to believe that he bears a pretty significant amount of responsibility for that team being bad?

 

I'm perfectly willing to believe that he's just been miscast as a top pairing guy when he's really a second pairing guy, similarly to how guys like Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf have been miscast, but if we're pulling the trigger on a second pairing guy, it doesn't make sense to cough up assets that are equivalent to a first pairing guy.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

48 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Just for some context, Risto had the worst +/- in the league last season, and it wasn't particularly close.

 

Last season he had the 18th worst +/- in the league.

 

He's a -142 in 5 and a half seasons in the NHL. 

 

-142

I don’t think it’s very fair to hold his plus minus as a huge negative against him. It sort of comes with the territory of playing on a bad team. Especially with good players who are counted on in all situations.  Kopitar was a -44 in his first 3 season.  Bergeron was a -20 in his first three season, Drew Doughty was a -33 this last season, Keith was a -29 last year and even Karlsson was a -36 during his tenor in Ottawa. 

 

 

While yes in the last 3 years, Risto’s +/- has been the worst in the league with a -75.  In that same time he also put up 129 points in 230 games.  For comparison sake, in that same time frame Ekman-Larsson was a -69 and put up slightly less offence with 125 points in 242 games.  Damon Severson was a -66 and only put up 94 points in 238 games.  In fact out of the 15 D who were -30 or worse in that time frame, only Barrie (who was a -52) had better offensive numbers with 154 points in 220 games…..But Barrie also had 60% ozone starts (compared to Risto only getting 47%)

 

 

Risto is a top pairing D who logs 25+ min and already has four 40+ seasons before his 25thbirthday.  While he might not be worth backing up the whole truck for, he would be a huge addition.  Add in he’s a right shot D, who’s locked in for another 3 years at a only 5.4 cap hit.  He fits this teams needs perfectly.

 

 

[Fanuck]

So much complete fabrication being thrown around this thread.

 

People need to read the background and get some context:

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/11/01/behind-the-numbers-why-plusminus-is-the-worst-statistic-in-hockey-and-should-be-abolished/

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/plusminus-the-laziest-stat-in-hockey/

 

https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/just-how-horse-$&!#-is-the-nhls-official-plus-minus-stat

 

People should watch Risto (both live and on tape) to really decide if he could help this team and at what cost.  I'm not saying yay/nay to him, but rather don't just judge a player by a misunderstood/often misused singular statistic.  I mean, Boeser is a career minus player if that gives you any sense of how useless this statistic is. 

[nergish]

1 hour ago, Kobayashi Maru said:

I want Benning to trade for Risto, trade for Puljujarvi, sign Edler and draft Broberg by Friday so that he can focus his attention fully on Panarin. 

Weew lad, that’s a lotta Europeans 

I like it.

 

If we trade for Risto and are still looking for D, I’d pick Seider instead. We still don’t have a ton of guys that can play actual defence.

 

I’m firmly on team Boldy at #10 myself, though. We’ve had too much success with Americans.

[ShawnAntoski]

16 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

So much complete fabrication being thrown around this thread.

 

People need to read the background and get some context:

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/11/01/behind-the-numbers-why-plusminus-is-the-worst-statistic-in-hockey-and-should-be-abolished/

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/plusminus-the-laziest-stat-in-hockey/

 

https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/just-how-horse-$&!#-is-the-nhls-official-plus-minus-stat

 

People should watch Risto (both live and on tape) to really decide if he could help this team and at what cost.  I'm not saying yay/nay to him, but rather don't just judge a player by a misunderstood/often misused singular statistic.  I mean, Boeser is a career minus player if that gives you any sense of how useless this statistic is. 

Ditto and were I stand is that despite any career stats: pros or cons, he was not able to make too much of a difference to the Sabres - despite logging the most minutes these past few years - as a team and like I stated before, the only winner on any trade for Risto would be the Sabres; but who really knows as I am just looking at it from a team accomplishments perpective ? Despite us having struggled to make the playoffs, the Sabres are no better than us standings wise even with all there lottery players.  As far as, D goes there will be some options next year when hopefully we will have a better picture of how this so called rebuild is progressing.. 

 

 Great points from both sides but we will just have to wait and see if JB pulls the trigger.  #dontdoit 

Edited June 19, 2019 by ShawnAntoski

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Ditto and were I stand is that despite any career stats: pros or cons, he was not able to make too much of a difference to the Sabres - despite logging the most minutes these past few years - as a team and like I stated before, the only winner on any trade for Risto would be the Sabres; but who really knows as I am just looking at it from a team accomplishments perpective ? Despite us having struggled to make the playoffs, the Sabres are no better than us standings wise even with all there lottery players.  As far as, D goes there will be some options next year when hopefully we will have a better picture of how this so called rebuild is progressing.. 

 

 Great points from both sides but we will just have to wait and see if JB pulls the trigger.  #dontdoit 

You can say that about any good player on a bad team though. Freaking McDavid couldn't get the Oilers in the playoffs last year even with Drai and RNH also tugging on that rope.

 

It's a team sport, judging individual players on their team's accomplishments seems incredibly myopic and short sighted.

[ShawnAntoski]

19 minutes ago, aGENT said:

You can say that about any good player on a bad team though. Freaking McDavid couldn't get the Oilers in the playoffs last year even with Drai and RNH also tugging on that rope.

 

It's a team sport, judging individual players on their team's accomplishments seems incredibly myopic and short sighted.

Good points,  but McDavid is obviously a generational talent and when it comes to offers skys the limit for him.  I just think Risto is one dimesional , overhyped and would cost too much assets to acquire.  I am aware that you dont agree but we will just have to wait if JB pulls the trigger.  

Edited June 19, 2019 by ShawnAntoski

[aGENT]

40 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I don’t think it’s very fair to hold his plus minus as a huge negative against him. It sort of comes with the territory of playing on a bad team. Especially with good players who are counted on in all situations.  Kopitar was a -44 in his first 3 season.  Bergeron was a -20 in his first three season, Drew Doughty was a -33 this last season, Keith was a -29 last year and even Karlsson was a -36 during his tenor in Ottawa. 

 

 

While yes in the last 3 years, Risto’s +/- has been the worst in the league with a -75.  In that same time he also put up 129 points in 230 games.  For comparison sake, in that same time frame Ekman-Larsson was a -69 and put up slightly less offence with 125 points in 242 games.  Damon Severson was a -66 and only put up 94 points in 238 games.  In fact out of the 15 D who were -30 or worse in that time frame, only Barrie (who was a -52) had better offensive numbers with 154 points in 220 games…..But Barrie also had 60% ozone starts (compared to Risto only getting 47%)

 

 

Risto is a top pairing D who logs 25+ min and already has four 40+ seasons before his 25thbirthday.  While he might not be worth backing up the whole truck for, he would be a huge addition.  Add in he’s a right shot D, who’s locked in for another 3 years at a only 5.4 cap hit.  He fits this teams needs perfectly.

 

 

Amen.

 

BUF also doesn't have the supportive depth forward group we have here either. Risto, in a less demanding role, on a team with better defensive forwards and likely better goaltending (though that also may somewhat be a symptom of what's in front of them in BUF)...I'd like to see what that looks like personally.

 

By all means, that isn't advocacy for spending our 10th, Oj and Virt though. He's a defensively flawed/questionable #3, maybe #2 D with size and good offense, not Trouba.

 

If the cost is outrageous, we stay the course and look for deals to pop up from teams up against the cap (Miller etc). They don't likely have Risto's upside but we also don't gut ourselves.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Good points,  but McDavid is obviously a generational talent and when it comes to offers skys the limit.  I just think Risto is overhyped, but I am aware that you dont agree.   

I think he's a solid #3, maybe #2, D with good size, good offense and is somewhat defensively flawed/questionable.  Not sure you count that as 'overhyped'.

 

I see some value in him at a somewhat reasonable acquisition cost. He's be a pretty sizable upgrade to our D...but not at the expense of gutting our team, if that's the cost.

[ShawnAntoski]

19 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I think he's a solid #3, maybe #2, D with good size, good offense and is somewhat defensively flawed/questionable.  Not sure you count that as 'overhyped'.

 

I see some value in him at a somewhat reasonable acquisition cost. He's be a pretty sizable upgrade to our D...but not at the expense of gutting our team, if that's the cost.

Would love for him to be on the Canucks for the right cost; hopefully JB has learned something from the Gudbranson trade.  I guess the main contention point between us fans is the cost being proposed or rumoured to acquire a good but one dimensional d man: too high for some and worth it to others.  In my opinion, at this stage of the rebuild the cost is tooo much and there will be other opportunities because of the cap.

Edited June 19, 2019 by ShawnAntoski

[J-P]

My 5 cents is that Eddy did just fine whoever he was paired with this season, holding the fort against McDavid or who else might've been the number one threat on any given night. "Whoever" was generally a 3rd pairing D like Stecher or Guddy.

 

So yeah - maybe Eddy isn't the best babysitter in the league and maybe he isn't a true #1D. Doesn't matter with his salary and his history with the franchise. I'd say he's one of the best contracts in the league.

[SabreFan1]

This thread reads like an actual Sabres fan thread arguing about Ristolainen.   From the analytics being thrown around to the exact same word arguments.  Even the percentage is roughly the same 65% or so say he's not worth it, 35% give or take say he is.

 

It's striking me as pretty funny.  I wonder if it's the same on other interested team's message boards.  I'd check HFboards, but that place is just too irritating to spend any length of time reading it.

[ShawnAntoski]

10 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

This thread reads like an actual Sabres fan thread arguing about Ristolainen.   From the analytics being thrown around to the exact same word arguments.  Even the percentage is roughly the same 65% or so say he's not worth it, 35% give or take say he is.

 

It's striking me as pretty funny.  I wonder if it's the same on other interested team's message boards.  I'd check HFboards, but that place is just too irritating to spend any length of time reading it.

We are expansion brothers after all and one main difference is that the Sabres have had a few 1st overall picks.  

Edited June 20, 2019 by ShawnAntoski

[oldnews]

5 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Just for some context, Risto had the worst +/- in the league last season, and it wasn't particularly close.

 

Last season he had the 18th worst +/- in the league.

 

He's a -142 in 5 and a half seasons in the NHL. 

 

-142

That's not context, 48.

 

It's the antithesis of context =  a mere cherry-pick with no actual context.

[SabreFan1]

Edler being nearly re-signed gives me hope that if the Canucks do somehow manage to get Ristolainen, they'll have the perfect d-man to pair him with.  Edler can guide him in learning to make fewer mental mistakes in the defensive zone.

[48MPHSlapShot]

24 minutes ago, oldnews said:

That's not context, 48.

 

It's the antithesis of context =  a mere cherry-pick with no actual context.

It's not a 'cherry pick' if it's a trend that spans all 5 and a half NHL seasons he's put in. It's not a 'cherry pick' if it spans all 8 professional seasons he's put in, spanning 3 separate leagues. That's a trend, and a pretty alarming one at that.

[ShawnAntoski]

15 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

Edler being nearly re-signed gives me hope that if the Canucks do somehow manage to get Ristolainen, they'll have the perfect d-man to pair him with.  Edler can guide him in learning to make fewer mental mistakes in the defensive zone.

As a Sabres fan, what has the general consensus been as a FAIR asking price ?

[Wilbur]

17 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

Edler being nearly re-signed gives me hope that if the Canucks do somehow manage to get Ristolainen, they'll have the perfect d-man to pair him with.  Edler can guide him in learning to make fewer mental mistakes in the defensive zone.

Just as long as Ristolainen sleeps in the day that Edler teaches him how to have pucks go off of him and into the net.