JM_ Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, inane said: It's crazy how you can gloat for years about how great you are and rich you are and then when things go south complain the system is rigged. Lol yeah its a beauty. Oil happens to be concentrated in AB. Lets say it wasn't, say it was spread evenly over all 4 Western provinces. Then there'd be no weight to the "Alberta does more" rant. Albertans want special treatment for an accident in geology and the fact that oil (at least until now) has overpaid a lot of its workers, particularly in downtown Calgary (imo the guys on the rigs are the only ones that really earn their bucks). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 7 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: we're stuck in a loop. Strome wants some sort of special treatment for Albertan high wage earners, but only Albertan high wage earners. Like thats "fair". It's like a perpetual motion convo, almost goes around by itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: It's like a perpetual motion convo, almost goes around by itself true dat. We've never really had an honest conversation about the overall effect of the patch. And there are negatives to other parts of Canada and effects on other provinces. E.g., all those young people that moved to AB to work no longer earn money for their home province and there's less support for older people in their original province that paid the freight for their health and education growing up. Alberta gets to enjoy being a relatively young province, but doesn't want to pay their share of old age programs for the provinces from which they received all those young workers. Its not as simple as these hugely one-sided reports out of the Fraser Institute want to project. Edited April 29, 2020 by Jimmy McGill 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said: true dat. We've never really had an honest conversation about the overall effect of the patch. And there are negatives to other parts of Canada and effects on other provinces. E.g., all those young people that moved to AB to work no longer earn money for their home province and there's less support for older people in their original provide that paid the freight for their health and education growing up. Its not as simple as these hugely one-sided reports out of the Fraser Institute want to project. This is a really good point. It's almost like being part of a Country consists of structure and layers. I have been reading along in these threads for a while now and still have a hard time really understanding the plight of the Albertans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 30 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: channeling your inner Al Gore I see. Equalization is not unfair to Albertans: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-why-equalization-is-not-unfair-to-alberta/ People in AB have bloated oil industry salaries, and you use that simple fact to whine about how badly Albertans are treated. Its ridiculous. Equalization benifits have not provinces .....not the provinces that have...... also oil didn't just bloat oil wages.....every wage went up thx big payments..... thx to big equalization payments we gave every province a chance to be a have province and when do you cut the cord? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 1 minute ago, RowdyCanuck said: Equalization benifits have not provinces .....not the provinces that have...... also oil didn't just bloat oil wages.....every wage went up thx big payments..... thx to big equalization payments we gave every province a chance to be a have province and when do you cut the cord? yup, and out of line really with any other province. Does a CA in downtown Calgary work harder than one in TO, or are they just living off the bloated oil money effect? I think we know the answer. And you didn't "give" anything. What cord do you think you'd cut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 12 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: This is a really good point. It's almost like being part of a Country consists of structure and layers. I have been reading along in these threads for a while now and still have a hard time really understanding the plight of the Albertans. it begins with the myth that they "do more" than the rest of us. Once you sink that hook the rest of it is easy to believe and get angry over. No individual Albertan did more than any other person making the same salary anywhere else in Canada. They aren't special for paying their taxes like the rest of us. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 26 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: true dat. We've never really had an honest conversation about the overall effect of the patch. And there are negatives to other parts of Canada and effects on other provinces. E.g., all those young people that moved to AB to work no longer earn money for their home province and there's less support for older people in their original province that paid the freight for their health and education growing up. Alberta gets to enjoy being a relatively young province, but doesn't want to pay their share of old age programs for the provinces from which they received all those young workers. Its not as simple as these hugely one-sided reports out of the Fraser Institute want to project. 19 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: This is a really good point. It's almost like being part of a Country consists of structure and layers. I have been reading along in these threads for a while now and still have a hard time really understanding the plight of the Albertans. Nor does it account for all the higher health care costs etc for the elderly of those other provinces when all those patch workers retire back to them in their 50's, 60' etc. It's an incredibly myopic, short sighted argument (and as you've pointed out, erroneous) but they live and breath it like a religious fanatic belief. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 14 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: yup, and out of line really with any other province. Does a CA in downtown Calgary work harder than one in TO, or are they just living off the bloated oil money effect? I think we know the answer. And you didn't "give" anything. What cord do you think you'd cut? How are the wages out of wack? Compared to the mills in b.c they around the same money pure hour, also the only benifit oil people get is that big pay check that's it....... also thx to taxes breaks in Alberta , it allows companies to pay more......that's what a have province can do....... equalization payments where suppose to help turn have not provinces into have provinces but to just keep sucking on the tit...... how would you feel if you made millions and every year you gave your brother a million with hopes he would give himself and his family a better life but he just bought a nice house new stuff for the house and a new truck and so...every year...but he didn't invest in any future earnings cause he knew there was more money.....how would you feel after years of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 7 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: How are the wages out of wack? Compared to the mills in b.c they around the same money pure hour, also the only benifit oil people get is that big pay check that's it....... also thx to taxes breaks in Alberta , it allows companies to pay more......that's what a have province can do....... equalization payments where suppose to help turn have not provinces into have provinces but to just keep sucking on the tit...... how would you feel if you made millions and every year you gave your brother a million with hopes he would give himself and his family a better life but he just bought a nice house new stuff for the house and a new truck and so...every year...but he didn't invest in any future earnings cause he knew there was more money.....how would you feel after years of that? wages for the same work elsewhere are up to 25% higher in Alberta. Yeah, thats out of whack. It even happens in the AB public sector. And thats on top of enjoying lower taxation too. as far as the "teat" goes, you can't seem to appreciate the negatives that oil brings too. Its not all one-sided benefit out. the bolded part is just ridiculous. Alberta does not do that for the rest of the country. This is why its so hard to have an actual discussion with you guys, you actually believe this stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 14 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: wages for the same work elsewhere are up to 25% higher in Alberta. Yeah, thats out of whack. It even happens in the AB public sector. And thats on top of enjoying lower taxation too. as far as the "teat" goes, you can't seem to appreciate the negatives that oil brings too. Its not all one-sided benefit out. the bolded part is just ridiculous. Alberta does not do that for the rest of the country. This is why its so hard to have an actual discussion with you guys, you actually believe this stuff. Cause those companies are against industries that can afford to pay more.....so they have to compete against each other just like a bidding war......like posted before albertans are willing to move for work and it was the only way to keep people...... yes I agree that's one of the reason why cities go bankrupt cause they sign contracts during the high times and then can't afford to pay them cause there's no money.....so we need to adjust our public contracts and base them off today's economy not the pasted..... why you think Kenny was turning everything private....(I don't agree with it but it is what it is) due to high oil prices our whole world ballooned up and it's finally going to pop.....that's why I say oil money has funded so much.....it's also a double edge sword..... how so? Alberta houses pretty much everything to do with the oil and gas industry and every pipeline leads one way ha yes s.k and Manitoba both grew their oil and gas industries and become stronger for it.....that money first started in Alberta and its branched out from there. You could make the same argument for the logging industry, when it was the top dog there for awhile and if you go further you'll see that cattle and grain and fishing funded future growth...... but with oil we have seen growth we have never seen before........ See you can make a case for any of the old industries but oil has made us richer then any other, it's also funded more growth in other industries then any other industry. Ever think maybe if other provinces had different oil and gas companies and took some of the load off Alberta everything would be more balanced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 7 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: Cause those companies are against industries that can afford to pay more.....so they have to compete against each other just like a bidding war......like posted before albertans are willing to move for work and it was the only way to keep people...... yes I agree that's one of the reason why cities go bankrupt cause they sign contracts during the high times and then can't afford to pay them cause there's no money.....so we need to adjust our public contracts and base them off today's economy not the pasted..... why you think Kenny was turning everything private....(I don't agree with it but it is what it is) due to high oil prices our whole world ballooned up and it's finally going to pop.....that's why I say oil money has funded so much.....it's also a double edge sword..... how so? Alberta houses pretty much everything to do with the oil and gas industry and every pipeline leads one way ha yes s.k and Manitoba both grew their oil and gas industries and become stronger for it.....that money first started in Alberta and its branched out from there. You could make the same argument for the logging industry, when it was the top dog there for awhile and if you go further you'll see that cattle and grain and fishing funded future growth...... but with oil we have seen growth we have never seen before........ See you can make a case for any of the old industries but oil has made us richer then any other, it's also funded more growth in other industries then any other industry. Ever think maybe if other provinces had different oil and gas companies and took some of the load off Alberta everything would be more balanced? My wife has a cousin who farms in Saskatchewan. When the boom was going on in the patch he resented the rich oil patch workers coming home and bidding up land prices as they built their rural getaways. You probably realize the 'nuts & bolts' nature of farming. What our cousin now says is that these oil people have brought venture capital and tech know how to the farm. A lot of farming tech resulted. A great story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 17 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: Ever think maybe if other provinces had different oil and gas companies and took some of the load off Alberta everything would be more balanced? I think about this a lot. There are many high paying tech industries, it doesn't have to be oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 5 minutes ago, Boudrias said: My wife has a cousin who farms in Saskatchewan. When the boom was going on in the patch he resented the rich oil patch workers coming home and bidding up land prices as they built their rural getaways. You probably realize the 'nuts & bolts' nature of farming. What our cousin now says is that these oil people have brought venture capital and tech know how to the farm. A lot of farming tech resulted. A great story. I agree with your cuzin.....don't get me wrong it helped a lot of those family farms that ended up with wells.... but I agree it drove up the price for farm land but in Alberta atleast the Ponoka area, the Dutch that came over bought up like crazy and their business plan is to have their kids pay off the land or their grand kids.....so I know a few farmers that started buying in s.k cause land is cheaper....I remember guys from the patch pulling up to houses they liked and just writing a check..... .I don't like corporate farming or ranching but to supply what we need we had to grow bigger same with the population and bye bye to the small family farmers or young people even considering to get into it cause the cost to get into farming is insane ha and you need even more land now just to turn a profit or roll the dice and go with a money crop every year..... thats why I ranch a computer or Tec can't never replace me ha unless theirs a robot that can pull a calf ha and can cure pink eye and so on ha your cuzin is right though I liked the oil money that went into our school system and so on but s.k and Manitoba are paying the price but lucky for them they arnt as down the rabbit hole as Alberta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 9 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: I think about this a lot. There are many high paying tech industries, it doesn't have to be oil. I agree then how come another province doesn't become a Tec province? Just like how Alberta is an oil province......I don't see why it's up to Alberta to build up another industry after all it did for oil........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, RowdyCanuck said: I agree then how come another province doesn't become a Tec province? Just like how Alberta is an oil province......I don't see why it's up to Alberta to build up another industry after all it did for oil........ they are - where do you think the other 90% of our GDP is coming from? No one is asking AB to build up other industries for them. Not sure how you're getting that message. I don't want to see tax money go to prop up oil companies, we need to diversify off oil sooner than later. Edited April 29, 2020 by Jimmy McGill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 29 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: we need to diversify off oil sooner than later. The UAE, SA, Iran etc. All hugely dependant oil nations will be the first ones to feel this when the inevitable happens.. While OPEC might pull the strings right now, they controlling croups will also be the first to fall as they have no hope of diversification due to their own "luck" in geology 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Am.Ironman Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 30 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: they are - where do you think the other 90% of our GDP is coming from? No one is asking AB to build up other industries for them. Not sure how you're getting that message. I don't want to see tax money go to prop up oil companies, we need to diversify off oil sooner than later. I think now that the oil party appears to be over Alberta needs to implement a PST like everyone else. Even a small provincial tax of 2% would go a long way into investing into new industry. The reality is that the covid spending is probably going to lead to an increase in GST as well. I am fine with paying more taxes to improve our financial situation but I don't want it going toward stupid things (like a dying industry); I would much rather it fund diversification and decrease oil dependence. If they do bail out these oil companies, which may happen, they should take a page out of Merkel's book and get some company stock in return. Tax payers should get a return on their investment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 26 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said: I think now that the oil party appears to be over Alberta needs to implement a PST like everyone else. Even a small provincial tax of 2% would go a long way into investing into new industry. The reality is that the covid spending is probably going to lead to an increase in GST as well. I am fine with paying more taxes to improve our financial situation but I don't want it going toward stupid things (like a dying industry); I would much rather it fund diversification and decrease oil dependence. If they do bail out these oil companies, which may happen, they should take a page out of Merkel's book and get some company stock in return. Tax payers should get a return on their investment. yup I've seen a few people looking at that. We need to invest our way back into a stable economy, seems pretty clear to me it needs to be a broad-based approach. Oil can take care of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 1 hour ago, RowdyCanuck said: I agree then how come another province doesn't become a Tec province? Just like how Alberta is an oil province......I don't see why it's up to Alberta to build up another industry after all it did for oil........ I see none of our previous conversations have sunk in yet. Other provinces DO attract tech companies (among other things). The BC government has an entire 'Innovate BC' initiative with funding, resources etc for just that. You don't know what you're talking about. And FWIW, no province wants to be an all eggs in one basket, 'tech province'. As Alberta is discovering, (again) being a one industry reliant province is an idiotic recipe for feast and famine. And your whole point about other provinces is a distracting red herring from the issue being discussed. Further subsidizing O&G in Alberta instead of funding people and economic diversity in Alberta is just plain stupid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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