Zack Kassian not what we think he is?

[mikeburn]

So.... Canucks fans are at fault because we have unrealistic expectations of Kassian? All I'm looking for as well as the coaching staff is consistency and improvement.

From what I can see he's projecting the same pace as last season. That is neither consistent, nor is it improving. I feel that Kassian has all the tools, but like Bernier, and others, he just can't put it together. I'm not sure if coaching, or hard work in practise will get him to take that next step. I'm not sure if it's confidence he's lacking, or just plain hockey sense, or that he's just lazy?

He is still young, and not all players learn at the same pace. Maybe the jump to NHL is the hardest step for him. But, I have to say, for giving up a 40 point 1a centre, I'm not liking his development so far.

If back a few seasons I'd have been given a vote, I'd have gone with moving Kesler to wing (swapping him and Burrows between 1st and 2nd line depending on how things unfolded game-to-game), or keeping Kesler as a driven shut-down center (whichever label of 2C or 3C people felt most comfortable using) and keeping Hodgson to develop with 2C offensive and 3C defensive opportunity. But it didn't happen, oh well.

But it's unfair to look at Kassian through the lens of that trade. He's a way different player than Hodgson, and anyway it's not on Kassian that Gillis billed the kid as a ready-to-go top 6 power forward. The notion that Kassian would jump from the AHL to 1st liner in the NHL in time for the playoffs, was all Gillis rationalizing the trade. Just like it was Gillis (not some ego-driven Hodgson) who claimed Hodgson was future 'c' material, it was Gillis (not some pie-in-the-sky day dreamer Kassian) who billed Kassian as some up overnight top line winger. Can't even truly fault Gillis for his over-hype. That's what mgmt does - they promote.

If given the vote today, I'd say give Kassian some time and space to see what he develops into. Rolston (his junior coach while with the Sabres) hasn't exactly proven he's a great developer of talent (just look at what Rolston has done to the Sabres, vets and rookies alike this year), so give Kassian some extra time under the Canucks system to catch-up on what development opportunity was possibly lost under Rolston, and see what comes.

In the meanwhile, forget the labels. Who knows. And frankly, if Kassian turns out to be a career 3rd liner who can mix 'n match in the top 6 depending on how a game goes, then there's no long-term loss.

[oldnews]

^Hodgson this, Hodgson that blah blah blah.^

Broken record.

I notice the Hodgson / Kesler comparisons have disappeared...lol.

And what a bunch of revisionist crap regarding Gillis claiming that Kassian was going to jump onto the first line - instant overnight top line forward. Never said that about Kassian - and never would have expected that of Hodgson either. Only in Buffalo would you expect such dump player management.

What Gillis said was that he believed Kassian could contribute in the present and be an influential player moving forward.

Feel free to post a quote where he makes the ridiculous claims you are attributing above.

This may be your typical slant, but it's getting pretty pathetic.

[mikeburn]

^Hodgson this, Hodgson that blah blah blah.^

Broken record.

I notice the Hodgson / Kesler comparisons have disappeared...lol.

And what a bunch of revisionist crap regarding Gillis claiming that Kassian was going to jump onto the first line - instant overnight top line forward. Never said that about Kassian - and never would have expected that of Hodgson either. Only in Buffalo would you expect such dump player management.

What Gillis said was that he believed Kassian could contribute in the present and be an influential player moving forward.

Feel free to post a quote where he makes the ridiculous claims you are attributing above.

This may be your typical slant, but it's getting pretty pathetic.

Oh boy. You just wanna leap to attack in favour of getting the point, don't you? Gee, so sorry I didn't use the precise same descriptors as you to paraphrase Gillis' praise for Kassian at the time of the trade - and projection that he'd rapidly develop into an overnight success.

[oldnews]

Oh boy. You just wanna leap to attack in favour of getting the point, don't you? Gee, so sorry I didn't use the precise same descriptors as you to paraphrase Gillis' praise for Kassian at the time of the trade - and projection that he'd rapidly develop into an overnight success.

Signature "Sigh"

precise descriptions lol? you make a Doughty dive look like a moderate embellishment.

the only people peddling that a rookie should be an instant top line player were, ironically, the noobs complaining about Hodgson's ice time.

[stawns]

I wish that thug was a Canuck.

Agree, he often skates himself out of position. I hope he learns to simplify his game playing more north/south. He's on a big slow learning curve but I hope it pans out.

I disagree.........he's a thinking player and he's often thinking a cpl of steps ahead of the play and he's going to the spot he thinks the play will develop to........sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. He's finding his identity.........those who don't think he's improving are looking at him wrong

[Quoted]

Havent read through the thread, but big framed physical forwards traditionally take longer to develop. Mostly because they dont have NHL quallity speed, so it takes them some time to figure out. Youve had current players like Moulson, Malone, Bertuzzi, Wheeler, etc... take at least untill the age of 23 to figure it out. Even guys like Backes, Neal, and JVR have all needed some time to figure out the offensive side of their games... and it usually comes between the age of 23-25.

Dont forget that last years regular season was his first full NHL season.... and it was a short schedule. He's played a grand total of 93 NHL regular season games... This is the guage we should use to measure his progress, not his age. Ill give him roughly 200 games played before he should be connecting the dots consistently.

The Canucks came into this with patience for Kassian. I wouldnt move him anywhere untill the end of the 2015 season, at which point they should have a much, much stronger idea of what role he will be capable of.

I think people who make the Bertuzzi comparison forget how frustrating he was until he had those couple of great seasons: he floated a lot of games, was often very inconsistant, and made some bone-headed decisions (leading to suspensions). I remember him scoring an amazing goal and hearing Tom Larcheid being totally frstrated and asking: "Why can't he play like that every night??"

[stawns]

I think people who make the Bertuzzi comparison forget how frustrating he was until he had those couple of great seasons: he floated a lot of games, was often very inconsistant, and made some bone-headed decisions (leading to suspensions). I remember him scoring an amazing goal and hearing Tom Larcheid being totally frstrated and asking: "Why can't he play like that every night??"

exactly......Bertuzzi has been elevated into a player he wasn't by people too young to truly watch and understand his play

[Barry_Wilkins]

So far we still have not seen him playing minutes in the top 6 where we want and expect him to succeed. He is still playing less than 10 mins. I think Torts needs to give 7-10 games where just letting him play in the top 6, with a lot of mins and just lets see what he can do.

I will not say he is a bust until we see him playing top 6 for a significant amount of games. . Still have yet to see Kassian play the pp and be the net presence where he could do well.

Put Kassian with the Sedins for 10 games and just do not move him off, put him on the pp with the Sedins and Kesler. Give him all the chances and tools he needs to do well, and then if he doesn't do much, then we can judge.

No. Ice time has to be earned.

The Sedins and Kesler played for years on the bottom combos until their offensive games developed. Putting him with the Sedins for even a month -- no matter what the results -- just puts more needless pressure on him. It can also take away his focus on defensive responsibility. And that's a big thing because my biggest concern with Kassian is his work ethic. Even before the trade here, Kassian had an established rep as an inconsistent player. Inconsistent being a softer, gentler term for lazy and unmotivated. And that's a real concern because often that's a negative that doesn't change.

Kassian's should have all the motivation in the world to succeed. His next contract, a possible future on a line with the Sedins for several years at least, and playing on a competitive team. It's all up to him how bad he wants it.

[Dr. Crossbar]

Havent read through the thread, but big framed physical forwards traditionally take longer to develop. Mostly because they dont have NHL quallity speed, so it takes them some time to figure out. Youve had current players like Moulson, Malone, Bertuzzi, Wheeler, etc... take at least untill the age of 23 to figure it out. Even guys like Backes, Neal, and JVR have all needed some time to figure out the offensive side of their games... and it usually comes between the age of 23-25.

Dont forget that last years regular season was his first full NHL season.... and it was a short schedule. He's played a grand total of 93 NHL regular season games... This is the guage we should use to measure his progress, not his age. Ill give him roughly 200 games played before he should be connecting the dots consistently.

The Canucks came into this with patience for Kassian. I wouldnt move him anywhere untill the end of the 2015 season, at which point they should have a much, much stronger idea of what role he will be capable of.

Exactly! And Gillis has addressed this publicly, that guys like Kassian take longer to develop. So there's not much you can do but give them the time they need. To write him off cuts off the development process mid-stream, guaranteeing he won't be the player we want him to be.

I remember when Bertuzzi went to Islanders and naively thinking the same thing about him. I thought he'd be average at best. I was wrong. It was time that he needed to grow into his potential ... and he did. It wasn't 't until his 5th or 6th NHL season that he became a 25+ goal scorer.

And now that the Sedins are here for 4 more, Kassian should be coming into his own in that period.

Have to give Kassian time.

[Blue & Green]

I disagree.........he's a thinking player and he's often thinking a cpl of steps ahead of the play and he's going to the spot he thinks the play will develop to........sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. He's finding his identity.........those who don't think he's improving are looking at him wrong

I do think he is improving, slowly. Me thinks you thinks he thinks too much. I don't believe he is thinking that much ahead of the play rather he has often been behind the play especially on the fore/back check. His timing is a little better when the Canucks have possession of the puck.

As far as finding his identity goes, yes he is and it will take time. I believe he has the potential to be a top 6 forward especially with the quick hands he has similar to but a little less talented than Bertuzzi. I think it will take a lot of hard work for him to put it all together but I hope he does.

[Canuck Surfer]

It's plays like this that Kassian has to build off. He's got the foot speed now to make plays off the rush. He just needs to simplify his game and focus on north/south. It's when he tries to make cute little Sedin behind the back passes that he gets himself in trouble. Use the body to get the puck, take the puck to the net, park yourself at the net to create traffic. Simplify! Torts needs to drill home that message.

Kassian has a tantalizing combination of skills, physical skills as well as hockey skills. He's teased us displaying this from time to time.

The bottom line is he needs to play the game with more intensity. The reason he is not consistent is he does not work hard enough.

As an example, and he's a big guy, when do we see him physically dominate a game? I'm not talking about the occasional fight. I watched him play with Higgins a cpl of games ago. Higgins every shift was a warrior going in headfirst at high speed into board battle after board battle, winning a lot of them. There was Kassian on almost all plays, waiting beside the battle with his stick in case Higgins dug it out. Similarly, when do we see him strike fear in D men punishing them on the forecheck, or fighting for position in front of the net? Then we watch a Hansen or Santorelli come over the boards flying and into every battle as soon as they hit the ice every shift.

It might be confidence? You mention playing a simpler game. He might not be sure what play to commit to, afraid to make a mistake...

It might be training; perhaps he has not learned how to train and nourish his big body so it can expend the kind of energy to keep up with smaller athletes shift after shift, at that intensity. That might not be a knock. PF's develop slower because it does take more energy to move a bigger body at high intensity. They dont all learn what that level is right away?

The bottom line is he has not truly learned how to be a pro yet. So we keep getting teased, seeing the dazzling speed one day, shot another, the power to fight a Chris Stewart...

There are plenty of great examples for Zack on our team; Burrows, the Twins, Kesler, the guys I mentioned above. We'll know when he has made it when he starts playing the game with the intensity of some of his mates.

[stawns]

I do think he is improving, slowly. Me thinks you thinks he thinks too much. I don't believe he is thinking that much ahead of the play rather he has often been behind the play especially on the fore/back check. His timing is a little better when the Canucks have possession of the puck.

As far as finding his identity goes, yes he is and it will take time. I believe he has the potential to be a top 6 forward especially with the quick hands he has similar to but a little less talented than Bertuzzi. I think it will take a lot of hard work for him to put it all together but I hope he does.

I think he's got more tools than Bert. Bert was a skilled goal scorer, but his skating wasn't great and he wasn't much of a play maker. Kassian is an average goal scorer, but is a good skater and an excellent passer.......and he's got a good hockey IQ. Bert needed someone to make him effective whereas when Kassian finally develops into the player I think he will be, he will be the one who makes linemates better.

Granted, he is not there now, and its still up to him whether he fulfill his potential or not.

[xereau]

If he becomes an intimidating 3rd liner that can pound you into dust, and pop the occassional goal, or one of his patented 100 foot on the tape passes, I will be happy.

[Tr4ilerP4rk]

I want to see Kassian succeed just as bad as the next guy, but will he?

What is preventing Kassian from finding his game in the NHL, is that he still thinks he is one of those top 5 power forwards that you mention. He is not that level of player. He does not have the cerebral abilities to see and think the game at this level. He is not an east/west end to end, score on the rush type player. He is better compared to guys like Taylor Pyatt in my opinion. Once he realizes this and simplifies his game, he will be able to use his size and strength to control the play down low.

[Merely]

Well, it's a good thing we now know you're just trolling for attention. That this is not only a redundant thread because you were to lazy to see the EXACT same thread created an hour prior but that you need and seek validation the same way the league does from Jeremy Jacobs.

You can stop now, we get it. You need a hug

No response to my question? Lol, go cry.

[Merely]

burrows had pretty bad numbers in his first years in the nhl too. just give it time

What a joke, comparing Burrows to Kassian in terms of development.

[peaches5]

He's shown some great glimpse and then made some really minor league mistakes. Looks like its just nerves and pressure hopefully he starts to relax and play to his potential.

[mikeburn]

What a joke, comparing Burrows to Kassian in terms of development.

I dunno about how their numbers compare, but if you're talking about their respective attitudes, drive, focus, mentality, etc., then you're dead on straight with this one! Not only wasn't the guy drafted so had to work his way up and through on his own, even once hitting the Canucks he wasn't magically given the best linemates and ice time to showcase himself.

I vote for having more patience with Kassian (he doesn't have to be a 1st liner or bust player), but there's just no way these guys have had a comparable development path - or that Kassian has displayed the tenaciousness and maturity that Burrows had to just to get a Moose contract.

[marleau_12]

Lucic is a thug. Pure and simple. He has the Jeremy Jacobs stamp of approval, so he gets away with whatever he wants.

Regardless, the guy is a tank and perhaps the purest PWF you can find

[Bananas]

Here's the sad reality about Kassian discussions on the Canucks forums:

There is so much misinformation and so many wild expectations, yet nobody can ever discuss them and allow the dust to settle because every Kassian thread turns into a f---cking Kassian-Hodgson debate. Why don't you guys quit beating the dead horse and get on with the bloody topic!

I personally don't care about Hodgson's progress anymore. Why? Because he's not a Canuck. Kassian, on the other hand, is. So let's look at Kassian instead!

From what I've seen of Kassian's play this year, there are subtle improvements. I've seen direct changes in the way he plays since the arrival of the new coaching staff. I've seen subtleties in his game where he is trying these new things even when he doesn't need to. You can tell he's learning, and the fact that he isn't losing ice-time for making these mistakes is a testament to where Tortorella stands with the kid. Tortorella sees the potential.

Kassian has been learning to protect the puck with his body, the way the Sedins do, and trying to read the play and make a pass while doing it. This is completely different to how he was playing before. Once he gets this down, we'll start seeing some good passes coming off his stick to forwards in the crease. Once he gets this down, he'll start driving the net with his body between the puck and the defender.

I've seen progress with the kid this year, even though he isn't putting up a whopping number of points. He's not playing with the Sedins yet, but I don't think he's ready anyway. People need to be a little bit more patient here. He is not yet at the stage where he can be called one way or the other. He's at a transition stage between coaches, and I'll go as far as to say he's never really had a good coach since he hit professional hockey. He has all the tools to succeed, and I think Tortorella is more likely to bring him there than Rolston or AV were.

No more Hodgson-Kassian talk, for the love of god. None of the scrubs here will learn anything about Kassian if we just keep talking about the trade all the time.