Zack Kassian not what we think he is?

[higgyfan]

3 threads on Kassian and the only for sure thing is that he is likely becoming CDCs new whipping boy.

[PhillipBlunt]

Does anyone else have a bunch of candy left over?

Not as many kids this year as last year.

I love those little chocolate bars.

It was really quiet this year compared to last year.

[mikeburn]

Did you watch the Canucks then? I did.

He was in and out of the lineup and on the fourth line early on. He moved up later on cause lack of depth.

Nope, actually I wasn't watching the Canucks back then. But the hard numbers refute your subjective, and possibly time-diminished, memory

In the 1997-1998 season, Canucks had 26 games left of the regular season after trading for Bertuzzi February 6th. Bertuzzi played in 22 of them - missing those 4 games in a row between March 18th and March 24th. I dunno why he missed those games, but that's not "in and out of the lineup".

Also, Bertuzzi was not "on the fourth line early on" either. In reality, during his first 5 games with the Canucks, he racked up 7 pts, was a +4, and his TOI/g was 12:40, 16:10, 18:22, 17:39 and 21:24. Actually, over his first 22 games as a Canuck, his TOI/g only dipped below 12 minutes twice (10:13 on March 7 1998, when he had 1 goal & 11:46 on April 1st 1998, when he had 1 goal, 1 assist and 11 penalty minutes).

Really, however you cut it, Bertuzzi was simply not a 4th liner as a 23/24 year old Canuck. But in fact, among forwards for ice time was 5th for ES/g, 7th for SH/g, 6th for PP/g, and 6th for TOI/g, behind the likes of Bure, Messier, and Linden (who of course had been traded), and far head of guys like Naslund (who was 13th for TOI/g incidentally).

Bertuzzi's first season (22 games) with Canucks during his 22-23 year old (1997-1998) season:

Date G A P +/- PIM TOI

Apr 19 '98 0 0 0 -1 0 18:49

Apr 17 '98 0 0 0 0 0 18:05

Apr 15 '98 0 0 0 -1 0 17:32

Apr 11 '98 0 1 1 1 0 20:39

Apr 9 '98 0 1 1 1 2 17:51

Apr 6 '98 0 0 0 -2 0 18:12

Apr 4 '98 0 0 0 0 12 17:24

Apr 1 '98 1 1 2 2 11 11:46

Mar 28 '98 1 0 1 -1 2 15:40

Mar 26 '98 0 0 0 -2 0 14:26

Mar 24 '98 NYI @ VAN didn't play

Mar 21 '98 VAN @ TOR didn't play

Mar 20 '98 VAN @ OTT didn't play

Mar 18 '98 VAN @ TBL didn't play

Mar 17 '98 0 1 1 1 0 16:14

Mar 14 '98 1 0 1 1 0 13:51

Mar 12 '98 0 0 0 1 7 17:09

Mar 11 '98 0 0 0 0 0 18:43

Mar 9 '98 0 0 0 0 4 19:06

Mar 7 '98 1 0 1 1 0 10:13

Mar 5 '98 0 0 0 -2 17 14:27

Mar 2 '98 0 0 0 4 0 21:24

Feb 28 '98 1 1 2 1 4 17:39

Feb 27 '98 0 1 1 -1 0 18:22

Feb 25 '98 0 2 2 2 0 16:10

Feb 7 '98 1 1 2 1 0 12:40

[Henrik Kesler]

Kassian is fine.

I think too many people want him to be Lucic or Bertuzzi when it is pretty clear by his play style that he is going to be more of a Joe Thornton type player (not saying he will be THAT good) who uses his size to create space for other players who he then sets up for goals.

[DeNiro]

Nope, actually I wasn't watching the Canucks back then. But the hard numbers refute your subjective, and possibly time-diminished, memory

Don't know where you got those numbers from, but yes he did play on the fourth line.

Maybe instead of looking at your little stats websites you should take it from someone who watched him.

10-13 minutes can be fourth line by the way if it's boosted with pk or powerplay time.

He played fourth line the following season when he was struggling with injury. That's the season I was talking about anyways. That's when he was 24, not the season where he played 22.

[mikeburn]

So Cody has another coach to blame for his poor play?

This guy can do no wrong in some people's eyes can he?

I think people need to wake up to the fact that he plays a soft game and is terrible defensively. That's why the coach is calling him out. If he wants to be a first line center, he's gonna have to deal with that criticism.

How much effort do you put into entirely missing the point in favour of turning a Kassian thread into another "bash Hodgson" thread?

FYI, but this isn't a Hodgson thread - it's about Kassian. And the point that was raised went to the effect that a coach has on a player's development. In this case, people are referring to the fact that the same coach (Rolston) who has since lost his entire team to the extent that the effort of multiple players (vets and rookies alike) just ain't there, is the same guy who was responsible for Kassian's early development. And the reason this has been raised is to further the argument that Kassian should be given a bit of break (for having Rolston in his background), some extra patience and time to catch-up his development under the Canucks system.

Get it now? Sigh.

[mikeburn]

Don't know where you got those numbers from, but yes he did play on the fourth line.

Maybe instead of looking at your little stats websites you should take it from someone who watched him.

10-13 minutes can be fourth line by the way if it's boosted with pk or powerplay time.

lol You just don't get it do you?

The guy was 5th for ES/g, 7th for SH/g, 6th for PP/g, and 6th for TOI/g over his first season with the Canucks. Playing 3 of those 22 games under 13 minutes (while snagging 3 goals, 2 assists and 11 PIM) doesn't change the fact that he was a top 6 player.

Oh, and as to where I got those numbers - google is your friend, but if you need to be handheld try looking stuff up on nhl.com http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8459444&view=log&season=19971998

[DeNiro]

How much effort do you put into entirely missing the point in favour of turning a Kassian thread into another "bash Hodgson" thread?

Get it now? Sigh.

You're the one that brought Hodgson up in the first place. Man Hodgson fanboys are ridiculous.

You're like Justin Bieber fans. You bring his name up all the time and if anyone says anything the least bit critical about him you go into a frenzy.

[DeNiro]

lol You just don't get it do you?

The guy was 5th for ES/g, 7th for SH/g, 6th for PP/g, and 6th for TOI/g over his first season with the Canucks. Playing 3 of those 22 games under 13 minutes (while snagging 3 goals, 2 assists and 11 PIM) doesn't change the fact that he was a top 6 player.

Oh, and as to where I got those numbers - google is your friend, but if you need to be handheld try looking stuff up on nhl.com http://www.nhl.com/i...season=19971998

Those stats are clearly accurate.

I remember the game that Bertuzzi played 40 minutes. That was epic.

[mikeburn]

You're the one that brought Hodgson up in the first place. Man Hodgson fanboys are ridiculous.

You're like Justin Bieber fans. You bring his name up all the time and if anyone says anything the least bit critical about him you go into a frenzy.

Um, actually, no I didn't And given that my comment about him actually flagged his lack of the effort for the game in question, your notion about going into a frenzy over criticism of the guy is equally.... well, out-to-lunch.

So with this further gobbly guck of yours in mind, you can probably understand why it is I'm not surprised your memory about Bertuzzi's early days with the Canucks is fundamentally off-base from reality: You can't keep things straight that have happened in the last hour, much less 15 years ago

[Mr. Nobody]

Ok so he is 2 months away from being 23, and this is his 3rd year in the NHL.

He has bad scoring stats, and He bring HIS A- game once every 3 games.

And he is really good when he plays like that.

In a few years he will be a good power forward.

But not anything near guys like Nash, Lucic or even Bertuzzi.

I know you guys keep saying he is only 22, but Lucic was a 30 goal scorer at 22.

Will kassian be a good power forward? Yes

Will be in the leagues top 5? Maybe

Will he be what we think he will be? (some say better than Lucic) Most likely not.

Will I get flamed for this? Yes

I'm not flaming you, but different players develop at different paces. At 22 Neely scored 36 goals, Esposito scored 23, Bertuzzi scored a whopping 10 (plus 5 in the IHL), Messier 48, you just can't compare.

To be honest, yes, Kassian is disappointing numbers wise (also his work ethic leaves something to be desired) but he does show flashes of brilliance every now and again.

Could he score 50 goals? Doubtful but we just don't know, that's the beauty of hockey, one season a player could just beast it up and defy all expectations.

Funny how you guys are calling Lucic a player who can ONLY hit and does cheap shots.

Meanwhile he has more points than your superstar Ryan Kesler. And Kesler has played 4 more games than him.

Looks who's talking about flaming...

[mikeburn]

Those stats are clearly accurate.

I remember the game that Bertuzzi played 40 minutes. That was epic.

Yep, you got it. The stats are clearly accurate: Bure snagged 90 points that season, Linden only played 42 games before being traded, and incoming Bertuzzi averaged the ice time and points of a top 6 guy.

Glad to see you finally get it that your 15 year old memory has lead you wrong and that the objective data entirely refutes your theory that Bertuzzi was a 4th liner during his first season as a Canuck. It's also pretty nifty that you can laugh at the fallacy of your memory with the 40 minute game reference. True character, for sure. Good job!

[70seven]

Havent read through the thread, but big framed physical forwards traditionally take longer to develop. Mostly because they dont have NHL quallity speed, so it takes them some time to figure out. Youve had current players like Moulson, Malone, Bertuzzi, Wheeler, etc... take at least untill the age of 23 to figure it out. Even guys like Backes, Neal, and JVR have all needed some time to figure out the offensive side of their games... and it usually comes between the age of 23-25.

Dont forget that last years regular season was his first full NHL season.... and it was a short schedule. He's played a grand total of 93 NHL regular season games... This is the guage we should use to measure his progress, not his age. Ill give him roughly 200 games played before he should be connecting the dots consistently.

The Canucks came into this with patience for Kassian. I wouldnt move him anywhere untill the end of the 2015 season, at which point they should have a much, much stronger idea of what role he will be capable of.

[oldnews]

JC, another gawd awful Hodgson hijack.

Then again, what better thread to derail. It was redundant overkill from it's original posting.

I say trade kassian for barry Pedersen

thankfully someone's making sense

[flyingrhinos]

burrows had pretty bad numbers in his first years in the nhl too. just give it time

[stawns]

It's plays like this that Kassian has to build off. He's got the foot speed now to make plays off the rush.

He just needs to simplify his game and focus on north/south. It's when he tries to make cute little Sedin behind the back passes that he gets himself in trouble.

Use the body to get the puck, take the puck to the net, park yourself at the net to create traffic. Simplify! Torts needs to drill home that message.

I disagree........he's an average finisher, in my opinion, but more than that, he's a playmaker. He needs to puck on his stick and he needs to ply with guys who need to be able to find the soft spots on the ice.......the places they can set up and let kass find them with the puck. I truly think that's who he is as a player, but people have this vision of him as some beast who comes in bullies people out of his way. He is much moe like Jumbo than Lucic

[Mr. Nobody]

He is much moe like Jumbo than Lucic

I never saw it that way before but the more I think about it the more he reminds me of Big Joe.

[Henrik Kesler]

I never saw it that way before but the more I think about it the more he reminds me of Big Joe.

And you know what, him developing into half the player Jumbo Joe still means he'd be quite the player.

[Blue & Green]

Lucic is a thug. Pure and simple. He has the Jeremy Jacobs stamp of approval, so he gets away with whatever he wants.

I wish that thug was a Canuck.

Kassian needs to be better at reading and reacting. Doesn't seem to be taking the right route on the forecheck or getting himself into good scoring positions.

Agree, he often skates himself out of position. I hope he learns to simplify his game playing more north/south. He's on a big slow learning curve but I hope it pans out.

[Ghostsof1915]

So.... Canucks fans are at fault because we have unrealistic expectations of Kassian? All I'm looking for as well as the coaching staff is consistency and improvement.

From what I can see he's projecting the same pace as last season. That is neither consistent, nor is it improving. I feel that Kassian has all the tools, but like Bernier, and others, he just can't put it together. I'm not sure if coaching, or hard work in practise will get him to take that next step. I'm not sure if it's confidence he's lacking, or just plain hockey sense, or that he's just lazy?

He is still young, and not all players learn at the same pace. Maybe the jump to NHL is the hardest step for him. But, I have to say, for giving up a 40 point 1a centre, I'm not liking his development so far.