Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Alflives]

I agree. Style-wise they don't complement each other. Virtanen is much more of a north-south speed and shoot on the fly player whereas the Sedin's are set-up cycle players. No doubt the Sedins could make Virtanen a good player (as they do with almost all their wingers) but I don't think they compliment each other style-wise.

Don't you think the Twins would benefit from a winger, who can use his speed to push the D Pair off the blue line? This speed would create space for the twins to enter the zone, creating a big gap of open ice between the retreating D, and the back checking forwards. The Twins would eat up that space. I think anyway.

[baumerman77]

Don't you think the Twins would benefit from a winger, who can use his speed to push the D Pair off the blue line? This speed would create space for the twins to enter the zone, creating a big gap of open ice between the retreating D, and the back checking forwards. The Twins would eat up that space. I think anyway.

Yes, it would. But I think the twins would handle the puck through the neutral zone which may mitigate the effect of Virtanen's speed.

More generally, I think this is one of the reasons Virtanen needs another year in junior. I hear a lot of people saying that his "power forward" skill-set makes him more likely to make the jump to the NHL this year. From my observations of Virtanen (about 20-24 WHL games in person and generally whenever his games were televised -WHL, AHL, WJC) he will not be able to play the same style he has the last two seasons in the NHL this year.

Firstly, he carries the puck through the neutral zone (probably a result of not having a strong center on his line). He won't be doing this in the NHL. Secondly, he has a habit of either chipping it around the D on the blueline and trying to be the D wide or just going right through the D-man. Both of these strategies (which don't work that often in the WHL) will barely work at the NHL with Virtanen at his current size and speed (maybe when he is stronger and faster but this is still unlikely- how many guys actually pull this move off in the NHL?). Third, he scores a lot of his goals by driving with the puck to the net (different that "going to the net" without the puck). Take any look at his highlight reel and this becomes very obvious, when watching him in person he does this a lot, most times unsuccessfully. The odds of him being successful at doing this at 19 are very very remote.

It sounds counter-intuitive, but I think power forwards should be developed slowly even though they are physically ready. There are countless examples of power forwards rushed too early who can't bridge their style to the NHL. Some just outright fail, like Colton Gillies and others drastically change their style often making them less effective, like Zack Kassian. Personally, I want Virtanen to perfect his art in the WHL next year and likely in the AHL the season after that depending on progress. That will give him the opportunity to round out his defence, take on leadership roles, and become stronger and faster. Personally, I think that is best for his development.

[Vancanwincup]

Yes, it would. But I think the twins would handle the puck through the neutral zone which may mitigate the effect of Virtanen's speed.

More generally, I think this is one of the reasons Virtanen needs another year in junior. I hear a lot of people saying that his "power forward" skill-set makes him more likely to make the jump to the NHL this year. From my observations of Virtanen (about 20-24 WHL games in person and generally whenever his games were televised -WHL, AHL, WJC) he will not be able to play the same style he has the last two seasons in the NHL this year.

Firstly, he carries the puck through the neutral zone (probably a result of not having a strong center on his line). He won't be doing this in the NHL. Secondly, he has a habit of either chipping it around the D on the blueline and trying to be the D wide or just going right through the D-man. Both of these strategies (which don't work that often in the WHL) will barely work at the NHL with Virtanen at his current size and speed (maybe when he is stronger and faster but this is still unlikely- how many guys actually pull this move off in the NHL?). Third, he scores a lot of his goals by driving with the puck to the net (different that "going to the net" without the puck). Take any look at his highlight reel and this becomes very obvious, when watching him in person he does this a lot, most times unsuccessfully. The odds of him being successful at doing this at 19 are very very remote.

It sounds counter-intuitive, but I think power forwards should be developed slowly even though they are physically ready. There are countless examples of power forwards rushed too early who can't bridge their style to the NHL. Some just outright fail, like Colton Gillies and others drastically change their style often making them less effective, like Zack Kassian. Personally, I want Virtanen to perfect his art in the WHL next year and likely in the AHL the season after that depending on progress. That will give him the opportunity to round out his defence, take on leadership roles, and become stronger and faster. Personally, I think that is best for his development.

Jack showed a lot of maturity playing in AHL , this is the main reason he has a high chance of starting the year on the Canucks forth line.

[canuckledraggin]

I'm guessing by Sedinery, you're not referring to Jake actually playing with the twins, just learning from them? Because that I 100% agree with. Kid has a hot temper, will lean a lot from the cooler heads - but will also eventually help the culture of this team by ramping up intensity and playing a bit meaner.

yes 100%. Anyone thinking he's going to play on the 1st line is probably going to be disappointed. Sedinery probably isn't the right term, because it refers to their play on the ice. I did mean more in terms of character building and learning tricks from seasoned veterans that will make him a better pro. It won't just be the Sedins though, if you want the kid to learn humility and a strong work ethic, this is the team to do it with.

The people saying send him back to junior are the same people saying that we're gonna suck this year, so it doesn't make any sense to me. If you think we're gonna finish in the bottom 1/3 of the league and you think the kid's not ready to play in the NHL, wouldn't you want him to play with the club this year and make the team that much worse? That way we can garner the coveted better draft pick and trade every vet we can at the trade deadline. What's the downside to him playing on the team this year?

He's not going to lose confidence playing in the NHL. He's the cockiest player we have in the system, and that isn't just going to go away if he misses an assignment or makes a stupid play. Is he going to get less cocky steamrolling 17 year olds in the Dub?

[Alflives]

Yes, it would. But I think the twins would handle the puck through the neutral zone which may mitigate the effect of Virtanen's speed.

More generally, I think this is one of the reasons Virtanen needs another year in junior. I hear a lot of people saying that his "power forward" skill-set makes him more likely to make the jump to the NHL this year. From my observations of Virtanen (about 20-24 WHL games in person and generally whenever his games were televised -WHL, AHL, WJC) he will not be able to play the same style he has the last two seasons in the NHL this year.

Firstly, he carries the puck through the neutral zone (probably a result of not having a strong center on his line). He won't be doing this in the NHL. Secondly, he has a habit of either chipping it around the D on the blueline and trying to be the D wide or just going right through the D-man. Both of these strategies (which don't work that often in the WHL) will barely work at the NHL with Virtanen at his current size and speed (maybe when he is stronger and faster but this is still unlikely- how many guys actually pull this move off in the NHL?). Third, he scores a lot of his goals by driving with the puck to the net (different that "going to the net" without the puck). Take any look at his highlight reel and this becomes very obvious, when watching him in person he does this a lot, most times unsuccessfully. The odds of him being successful at doing this at 19 are very very remote.

It sounds counter-intuitive, but I think power forwards should be developed slowly even though they are physically ready. There are countless examples of power forwards rushed too early who can't bridge their style to the NHL. Some just outright fail, like Colton Gillies and others drastically change their style often making them less effective, like Zack Kassian. Personally, I want Virtanen to perfect his art in the WHL next year and likely in the AHL the season after that depending on progress. That will give him the opportunity to round out his defence, take on leadership roles, and become stronger and faster. Personally, I think that is best for his development.

You make excellent (well thought out) points, that I have no problem agreeing with. If Jake earns his spot on the team, by clearly playing well, would you keep him up?

[baumerman77]

You make excellent (well thought out) points, that I have no problem agreeing with. If Jake earns his spot on the team, by clearly playing well, would you keep him up?

I think it would be difficult for him to prove anything in 9 games, they would have to be exceptional (and a very good pre-season). Personally, I would rather him go back to junior than play under 10 minutes in the bottom 6 for the Canucks. It would be better for his development all around (defence, maturity, strength, leadership, skill, etc.). And from a Canucks perspective I think that Shinkaruk or Gaunce would be just as good wingers this season and I would rather one of them over Virtanen to make the team (both played better than him in the AHL playoffs in my opinion). Moreover, we would save a year on Virtanen's entry level contract and one more year until free agency.

I know everyone loves to see prospects make the team and it was exciting to see Horvat last year. But I think this year we should be excited to see Baertschi and potentially Shinkaruk and Gaunce (and Horvat's sophomore season).

[Gaudette Celly]

Jack showed a lot of maturity playing in AHL , this is the main reason he has a high chance of starting the year on the Canucks forth line.

Yup, he did well in his short stint there, and the AHL plays way tighter than the CHL.

I know everyone loves to see prospects make the team and it was exciting to see Horvat last year. But I think this year we should be excited to see Baertschi and potentially Shinkaruk and Gaunce (and Horvat's sophomore season).

Gaunce and Grenier are most=likely call-ups this year, and Shinkaruk is probably best-served with another year in the minors. He was just starting to get his game going at the end of the season, and it would be good to get him a full year of that level of play.

[baumerman77]

Gaunce and Grenier are most=likely call-ups this year, and Shinkaruk is probably best-served with another year in the minors. He was just starting to get his game going at the end of the season, and it would be good to get him a full year of that level of play.

I agree. I would keep both Shinkaruk and Gaunce down in the AHL all year if possible. But I would rather both of them over Virtanen for next year.

[canuckledraggin]

I think it would be difficult for him to prove anything in 9 games, they would have to be exceptional (and a very good pre-season). Personally, I would rather him go back to junior than play under 10 minutes in the bottom 6 for the Canucks. It would be better for his development all around (defence, maturity, strength, leadership, skill, etc.). And from a Canucks perspective I think that Shinkaruk or Gaunce would be just as good wingers this season and I would rather one of them over Virtanen to make the team (both played better than him in the AHL playoffs in my opinion). Moreover, we would save a year on Virtanen's entry level contract and one more year until free agency.

I know everyone loves to see prospects make the team and it was exciting to see Horvat last year. But I think this year we should be excited to see Baertschi and potentially Shinkaruk and Gaunce (and Horvat's sophomore season).

Those players are all LW and JV will be trying to make the team as a RW. Shinkaruk made great strides last year and his physical play and board work improved significantly, but he still needs some time to mature and take on a leadership role. Gaunce needs to go back to center imo. He increased his foot speed and learned to play better positionally, but Center is a bigger need going forward and LW is pretty solid prospect wise. Baertschi is the 3rd or 4th best playmaker on the team and has been gifted the spot, but I agree that he's going to show that he earned it.

Of the attributes you listed that Jake needs to learn in junior, leadership is the only one that he might be able to learn better than at the pro level. Although, learning from some of the greatest leaders in franchise history will be better than trying to figure out how to be the leader of the Hitmen. Jake is never going to be captain material and we don't need him to. Horvat, Cassels, Gaunce all fit the mold of leaders for the future.

Those 10 minutes playing at full speed are far more beneficial than the 20 minutes at the pace of junior. That slower pace doesn't do enough to increase his cardio or his ability to think and play the game. Those playoff games in Utica proved exactly that.

[baumerman77]

Those players are all LW and JV will be trying to make the team as a RW. Shinkaruk made great strides last year and his physical play and board work improved significantly, but he still needs some time to mature and take on a leadership role. Gaunce needs to go back to center imo. He increased his foot speed and learned to play better positionally, but Center is a bigger need going forward and LW is pretty solid prospect wise. Baertschi is the 3rd or 4th best playmaker on the team and has been gifted the spot, but I agree that he's going to show that he earned it.

Of the attributes you listed that Jake needs to learn in junior, leadership is the only one that he might be able to learn better than at the pro level. Although, learning from some of the greatest leaders in franchise history will be better than trying to figure out how to be the leader of the Hitmen. Jake is never going to be captain material and we don't need him to. Horvat, Cassels, Gaunce all fit the mold of leaders for the future.

Those 10 minutes playing at full speed are far more beneficial than the 20 minutes at the pace of junior. That slower pace doesn't do enough to increase his cardio or his ability to think and play the game. Those playoff games in Utica proved exactly that.

I agree he should be a RW. But RW looks harder to crack (Burrows, Vrbata, Hansen, Dorsett and Vey when not playing center.).

Like I said in an earlier post he would have to change his style and even if he did he would largely be ineffective. Better to not burn a year on his ELC and UFA eligibility and take a slow and steady approach.

I think Benning will want him on the team but I don't think WD will want him on the team this year.

Edited September 2, 2015 by baumerman77

[canuckledraggin]

Atm I think this is the lineup. http://www.eliteprospects.com/team.php?team=77(not too sure about the player positions there they don't look right)

Of course everything is subject to change, but I think Benning is going to trump WD's decision in the same way that he did last year with Horvat.

And the names that Benning has been saying for weeks now that are in line to make the jump this year are: Markstrom, Corrado, Baertschi and Virtanen. He checks all the boxes on JB's list: young, fast and physical. And it's the only move that makes sense if we're actually rebuilding, while trying to stay competitive, the way he claims.

[Fanuck]

I know everyone loves to see prospects make the team and it was exciting to see Horvat last year. But I think this year we should be excited to see Baertschi and potentially Shinkaruk and Gaunce (and Horvat's sophomore season).

Horvat was an exceptional case as he was mentally and physically so mature, he made the transition to the NHL look easy even though it isn't. Now everyone thinks these other kids can do that too unfortunately.

I agree that the Utica crew will perhaps make a difference on the club before JV. Despite Horvats success, a years worth of coaching/training/competing in the AHL cannot be underestimated.

[JeremyCuddles]

Horvat was an exceptional case as he was mentally and physically so mature, he made the transition to the NHL look easy even though it isn't. Now everyone thinks these other kids can do that too unfortunately.

I agree that the Utica crew will perhaps make a difference on the club before JV. Despite Horvats success, a years worth of coaching/training/competing in the AHL cannot be underestimated.

"Everyone" doesn't believe every prospect we have can make the jump Horvat style. From what I am seeing people are fairly divided on Jake's chances of cracking the roster, other than physicality people are divided on the best way to handle him. And from what I am reading consensus is Baertschi is the only shoe in for a roster spot, due to waiver status.

[aGENT]

Yeah I don't get this 'everyone' garbage. Same broad strokes people tried to paint with regarding people wanting to keep Lack because he's 'likable'. I wanted to keep Lack because he was younger, cheaper and otherwise pretty on par with Miller, not because he's 'likable'. "Everyone"

I think Jake's going to be given every opportunity to make the club because he's physically ready, has a skill set the team lacks and can be eased in/sheltered in a 4th line/spare role with minimal pressure/expectations. Also I don't think Gaunce, Jensen, Grenier etc are going to be clearly head and shoulders better options and can all pass through waivers. But we'll find out in a few weeks here.

Jake also equals 'free', relatively equal quality depth in that regard and most coaches/GM's are not going to dismiss that so easily. That's an extra body they have for better depth on both clubs if he stays up. That makes both teams better and gives more cushion for injuries. People are vastly underrating that.

I also think he's better served playing ~10 minutes at 100% against NHL opponents with NHL team mates, trainers and coaches rather than playing 20+ minutes at 85% against boys with inferior coaching, team mates etc.

The only reason he goes back to Calgary IMO is if he's clearly not ready.

Edited September 2, 2015 by J.R.

[uselessstats]

Yes, it would. But I think the twins would handle the puck through the neutral zone which may mitigate the effect of Virtanen's speed.

More generally, I think this is one of the reasons Virtanen needs another year in junior. I hear a lot of people saying that his "power forward" skill-set makes him more likely to make the jump to the NHL this year. From my observations of Virtanen (about 20-24 WHL games in person and generally whenever his games were televised -WHL, AHL, WJC) he will not be able to play the same style he has the last two seasons in the NHL this year.

Firstly, he carries the puck through the neutral zone (probably a result of not having a strong center on his line). He won't be doing this in the NHL. Secondly, he has a habit of either chipping it around the D on the blueline and trying to be the D wide or just going right through the D-man. Both of these strategies (which don't work that often in the WHL) will barely work at the NHL with Virtanen at his current size and speed (maybe when he is stronger and faster but this is still unlikely- how many guys actually pull this move off in the NHL?). Third, he scores a lot of his goals by driving with the puck to the net (different that "going to the net" without the puck). Take any look at his highlight reel and this becomes very obvious, when watching him in person he does this a lot, most times unsuccessfully. The odds of him being successful at doing this at 19 are very very remote.

It sounds counter-intuitive, but I think power forwards should be developed slowly even though they are physically ready. There are countless examples of power forwards rushed too early who can't bridge their style to the NHL. Some just outright fail, like Colton Gillies and others drastically change their style often making them less effective, like Zack Kassian. Personally, I want Virtanen to perfect his art in the WHL next year and likely in the AHL the season after that depending on progress. That will give him the opportunity to round out his defence, take on leadership roles, and become stronger and faster. Personally, I think that is best for his development.

I agree that many of Jake's junior tendencies will need to be 'adjusted' for the NHL but honestly that is true of pretty much every player coming out of junior.

As for power forwards needing more time, this is true but Jake doesn't really score the same way as most 'power forwards' like the ones you've listed above. While he is strong and physical, he doesn't rely on his strength to score goals as much as he uses his speed and shot. One of the reasons most PF's take so long is they are reliant on being bigger and stronger to score their goals close to the net, an advantage that of course disappears at the NHL level for an 18 or 19 year old. Jake plays more like a 'speedy winger' than a lumbering net-crashing PF. As such his game may not need as much time to adapt to the NHL size and pace.

Just IMO of course.

[JoshuaGuy]

Yeah I don't get this 'everyone' garbage. Same broad strokes people tried to paint with regarding people wanting to keep Lack because he's 'likable'. I wanted to keep Lack because he was younger, cheaper and otherwise pretty on par with Miller, not because he's 'likable'. "Everyone"

I think Jake's going to be given every opportunity to make the club because he's physically ready, has a skill set the team lacks and can be eased in/sheltered in a 4th line/spare role with minimal pressure/expectations. Also I don't think Gaunce, Jensen, Grenier etc are going to be clearly head and shoulders better options and can all pass through waivers. But we'll find out in a few weeks here.

Jake also equals 'free', relatively equal quality depth in that regard and most coaches/GM's are not going to dismiss that so easily. That's an extra body they have for better depth on both clubs if he stays up. That makes both teams better and gives more cushion for injuries. People are vastly underrating that.

I also think he's better served playing ~10 minutes at 100% against NHL opponents with NHL team mates, trainers and coaches rather than playing 20+ minutes at 85% against boys with inferior coaching, team mates etc.

The only reason he goes back to Calgary IMO is if he's clearly not ready.

Benning repeatedly said that of Horvat, about playing with intensity for less minutes in the bigs as opposed to coasting for 20+ in junior. I imagine he'd have the same strategy for Virtanen.

Having Jake crash and bang and pot a few while

playing 4th line minutes sounds pretty much perfect to me. That's depth, no?

[Realtor Rod]

Benning repeatedly said that of Horvat, about playing with intensity for less minutes in the bigs as opposed to coasting for 20+ in junior. I imagine he'd have the same strategy for Virtanen.

Having Jake crash and bang and pot a few while

playing 4th line minutes sounds pretty much perfect to me. That's depth, no?

Handle Jake like Bo and all will go well.

[austy]

so what if for 4th line winger you have greinier and virtanen, if you get basically the same points for example, which one is better for the club? im not sure, virt you get NHL coaching, an 'easing' into NHL via the 4th line. Whereas maybe you showcase Greinier and you trade him later for another asset, knowing you have Virt waiting to come in next season.

[VanNuck]

Jake Virtanen I believe is just the perfect linemate for the twins. He's a right-shooting power forward (who can complement left-shooting Daniel Sedin). Combines physicality, speed, and a laser of a shot, he can make nights a lot easier for the twins by either opening up space for them, warding off any pesky trouble-makers or physical blueliners, or simply giving Henrik Sedin another passing option. He could even make the occasional Bure-rush breakaway. I say, if possible, give him a shot at the bigs this year - he might stick. If he does, trade Vrbata and get some salary cap space (or a good defenseman).

[austy]

i think what we can all agree on is that we would like to see every player, (bar maybe Sbisa) play an exhibition game with the twins.