Absent Canuck Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I think we're making mountains out of molehills here. Fact of the matter is, is there isn't a tonne of Ryan Kesler's around. Selke winning, goal scoring centreman aren't a dime a dozen unfortunately. I feel like Bonino can and will replace his lost points. I've only seen him play maybe a few games, so my thoughts are mostly based on stats. The guy clearly can pass the puck and finish plays. Anaheim had him on their top PP for a reason after all. Kesler's defensive side will be the most missed I feel. Bonino isn't that kind of player. Does this have to be a bad thing? Consider the fact our bottom six is much more balanced and rounded, and we won't NEED Kesler playing huge minutes to play defensive hockey. Obviously it's a little early to judge how Bonino will play on this team. There's nothing wrong with having a more offensively minded player as your 2C. Speculation is a good time, but lets let the guy pull on a 'Nucks jersey and see where he's at come the all-star break. Bonino is 26 years old. He was undrafted in 2006 and then drafted only in the 7th round of 2007. The odds of him being some kind of amazing uncut gem that the scouts did not see is minimal. Hes not from the mountains of Switzerland or hidden in some gulag in Siberia where nobody knew about his amazing talent. Hes an American kid raised and trained in broad daylight in an age where every single American kid is scrutinized almost as much as a Canadian kid. Hes a hard worker. He is coachable. He also did absolutely nothing until last year. He was in a ripe situation where the Ducks had no quality 2nd line centerman . If so the Ducks would never had needed to parse assets for Kesler. What I am reading here is what is called 'wishful thinking' . This is a common tactic to 'stand by your team' that we use . Rose colored glasses . If Bonino was a blossoming 2nd line center who is going to be a continual 20 goal, even 30 goal player, the ducks never trade him to begin with. Would you? If you look at his stats, he is a journeyman we see 1000 times over in the NHL until last year. Then the Ducks sold him at highest value possible to the Canucks. He is going to try hard, get 15 goals so so, even maybe 20 with Sedin help on the PP. He is not a 2nd line center on a contending team. He simply isnt. I would have asked for the 10th overall pick instead of the 24th and Bonino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible.dee Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I've barely seen the guy play, so I have no idea... I have a hard time seeing how anyone else knows. I live in So-Cal and go to a lot of Ducks games, That's where my reviews of his play are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaches Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Your post is childish. People having different points of view than yours is not the end of the world. Get over it. His draft position has absolutely zero affect on his play. Pavel Datsyuk, 171st overall. He stinks. Henrik Zetterberg, 210th overall. Plug. What does draft position mean when it comes to play? You can't de-value a player just because they were taken late, it's stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Bonino is 26 years old. He was undrafted in 2006 and then drafted only in the 7th round of 2007. The odds of him being some kind of amazing uncut gem that the scouts did not see is minimal. Hes not from the mountains of Switzerland or hidden in some gulag in Siberia where nobody knew about his amazing talent. Hes an American kid raised and trained in broad daylight in an age where every single American kid is scrutinized almost as much as a Canadian kid. Hes a hard worker. He is coachable. He also did absolutely nothing until last year. He was in a ripe situation where the Ducks had no quality 2nd line centerman . If so the Ducks would never had needed to parse assets for Kesler. What I am reading here is what is called 'wishful thinking' . This is a common tactic to 'stand by your team' that we use . Rose colored glasses a . If Bonino was a blossoming 2nd line center who is going to be a continual 20 goal, even 30 goal player, the ducks never trade him to begin with. Would you? If you look at his stats, he is a journeyman we see 1000 times over in the NHL until last year. Then the Ducks sold him at highest value possible to the Canucks. He is going to try hard, get 15 goals so so, even maybe 20 with Sedin help on the PP. He is not a 2nd line center on a contending team. He simply isnt. I would have asked for the 10th overall pick instead of the 24th and Bonino. Hey Absent, neither Siberia nor Switzerland are really off the map anymore. Players from Switzerland aren't exactly known to nobody. The Canucks ironically have one of them their blueline. That Bonino as a journeyman is comic. He's played for one team, and is relatively young. Do you know what "journeyman" means? Apparently you think he hasn't done anything before last season. Let's look at nothing. Rookie season - 50 games, 18 points, 28 takeaways and a +19 differential, 1.73 pp60 - not bad really - lot's of rookies would like to have those problems. Sophomore season - 13 points in 27 games, 1.82 pp60, 18 takeaways to 8 turnover (+10) - not bad at all for a third of a season. If that production equals nothing, then there's a whole lot of less than nothing playing hockey in the NHL. Actually, it was a pretty good precursor to what he did last year as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyHatnDart Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Bonino is 26 years old. He was undrafted in 2006 and then drafted only in the 7th round of 2007. The odds of him being some kind of amazing uncut gem that the scouts did not see is minimal. Hes not from the mountains of Switzerland or hidden in some gulag in Siberia where nobody knew about his amazing talent. Hes an American kid raised and trained in broad daylight in an age where every single American kid is scrutinized almost as much as a Canadian kid. Hes a hard worker. He is coachable. He also did absolutely nothing until last year. He was in a ripe situation where the Ducks had no quality 2nd line centerman . If so the Ducks would never had needed to parse assets for Kesler. What I am reading here is what is called 'wishful thinking' . This is a common tactic to 'stand by your team' that we use . Rose colored glasses . If Bonino was a blossoming 2nd line center who is going to be a continual 20 goal, even 30 goal player, the ducks never trade him to begin with. Would you? If you look at his stats, he is a journeyman we see 1000 times over in the NHL until last year. Then the Ducks sold him at highest value possible to the Canucks. He is going to try hard, get 15 goals so so, even maybe 20 with Sedin help on the PP. He is not a 2nd line center on a contending team. He simply isnt. I would have asked for the 10th overall pick instead of the 24th and Bonino. I appreciate opinions, but there's no need to out and out say I'm wearing rose coloured glasses. I'm taking an optimistic view of a upward trending player that is now sporting my teams jersey. Benning (a lifetime hockey man, in and around scouting for most of it) seems to think he's a least worth a look as his 2C. Seems like he's the opinion I'll consider a little more highly than yours. Confidence is a huge part of any sport, and hopefully some of the confidence Bonino has should carry over from last season. Assuming he continues his pass first mentality, going off what you're saying, 15-20 goals, and assumedly 20-25 assists, isn't too bad for 1.9 million wouldn't you say? Would I? Would I what? Trade a 30 year old injury prone player who didn't want to play for my team, who was rumoured to be causing trouble in the dressing room... For a 1.9m dollar cap hit player with more points, a 24 year old first round defenceman who might just need a push to reach potential, and McCann, who some analysts say was the steal of the draft? Yeah. Yeah I would. Furthermore, I have never gone out and said we are a contending team. We're a team building towards the future. Bonino should shore up the points we've lost from Kesler's departure, as I said. If our prospects keep trending upwards we have a good chance at being a contender in 3-4 year. I have no illusions about this team this coming season. Our aging core coupled with some young future players is probably not going to make a lot of noise come playoff time, but hopefully it will be a lot more fun to watch this year. There's no reason for sarcasm in your response to my post. Especially outright calling me a homer based on one single post. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Lord Baltimore Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 This is how I picture you: If voicing my dislike of an aging tandem is cosidered being a troll then so be it, we can't all be blind homers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bp79 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 You can re-state it until you're blue in the face, but repeatedlty asserting something that isn't based in reality doesn't change that reality no matter how stubborn you are. A corsi quality of competition of -0.055 is 55 one thousands off the NHL median. In other words, what you and others trying to harp on as weak/easy competition is virtually NHL average competition, which is precisely what you'd expect from a player that was a middle range 2nd/3rd line tweener. The same is true of his offensive zone starts, which were a shade over 50% at 50.5. Arguing that these hairlines off of exactly median indicate some kind of sheltering or weak deployment is just nonsense regardless of how many times you try to revisit it and contradict the facts/objective outcomes with unsubstantiated opinions that yourself and Ban somehow think over-ride reality. That Bonino faced practically dead center average competition, with practically dead center balanced ozone/dzone starts, played less than average 2C minutes, and produced exactly average 2C production is enough to indicate that that is exactly where he has placed himself at this stage of his career. A few of you want to argue with the GMJB's assessment of Bonino, which is precisely supported by the objective outcomes and context of his play, and yet have nothing to back it up aside from opinionated assertions that contradict both the perspective of a seasoned NHL executive who's strength is precisely his player evaluation, and the underlying outcomes that are contained in Bonino's advanced statistics. The fact that a guy like Brad Richardson is perceived as "sheltered" exemplifies in a nutshell that the two of you are speaking through your hats / don't know what you're talking about. Bonus points for persistence, but nothing to really substantiate it. The thing about advanced stats are that they are a useful supplement to the game. They may not be necessary when a person is able to witness/watch (with a keen eye for the game) enough of a player to get a solid and broad perspective of their performance over time. The reality though, is that most people don't have enough time to watch 30 teams play 80+ games a season. We can know by observation what is also revealed in the advanced stats regarding our own team without necessarily needing to comb them if we watch and know our own team closely enough, but when it comes to the 800+ players in the NHL, those statistics become highly useful in confirming or contradicting impressions we get from small samples of seeing certain players perform. The other thing about advanced stats - people that try to argue upstream against them, contradicting objective outcomes as if they are meaningless and their 'eye' for the game is superior - are f.o.s. Those folks tend to be the entertaining types who will argue with you that Phil Kessel is a good two way player, or that the Sedins are "sheltered". Of coure they devalue advanced stats - their perspective is based in nonsense contradicted by reality. In the case of Bonino, what he showed head to head against us last year made him a highly desirable target in that Kesler negotiation imo. He showed exceptional hockey sense - call it what you want - a nose for the game and an instinctive intelligence regarding where to be on the ice, and where his team-mates and opponents are on the ice. He was simply a pain in the ass to play against. When you take those impressions and test them against his objective outcomes, what you get is a confirmation that he in fact has great vision - provides his linemates with exceptional scoring chances (reflected clearly in their shooting percentage differentials as SID pointed out). He also chooses his own spots very well, reflected in his own shooting percentage. In addition, he was highly successful in shootouts - a level of skill with the puck that this team can really use. No, he may not be as fast, big or physical as Kesler. He may not handle Kesler's huge minutes - but that's not what people here are expecting. What is expected is that he be himself - bring what he brings - which in certain facets of the game are a distinct upgrade over what Kesler had to offer. So, was Bonino, a former 1st round young D prospect/roster player, and a 1st (McCann) enough for the guy who (perhaps audaciously) furnished a list of two? I say hell yeah, I'll take that - and I can't wait to see how Bonino's strengths play out on this roster. wow it's like you read my mind we'll said. I admire guys like you who are able to stop haters in therew tracks, with actual facts to prove them wrong. it's like you said they can spew the same garbage over and over but it doesn't make it true. great post and a great read thanks for doing all the work i'd have no idea how to do gcg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bp79 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Who cares when he was picked at this point? The guys an NHLer now. As for putting up points on the poweplay, so what? Our powerplay needs a boost, and Daniel and Henrik aren't exactly slouches in that department. No reason why he can't have similar success here. Can't we at least watch this guy play before we start tearing him down? Some Canucks fans are just pathetic. I watched that 9-1 debacle against the ducks yesterday. bones was the best player on the ice. without getz or perry. it's like you said who cares where he was drafted tons of players were drafted later and became stars. some fans just like to hate that's why other fan bases hate us so much as we hate on our team there team, and then jump back on the band wagon when we start to do well. always enjoy reading your posts and a few others always great points and great reads. yet u never bash or put poeple down, you just prove them wrong!!! great job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 If we're taking one game and applying trends, I am hoping our ability to get several 5-on-3 pp's in a row, combined with facing 3rd-string goaltenders increases this season. That would sure help us out a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William_Clarkson Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 wow it's like you read my mind we'll said. I admire guys like you who are able to stop haters in therew tracks, with actual facts to prove them wrong. it's like you said they can spew the same garbage over and over but it doesn't make it true. great post and a great read thanks for doing all the work i'd have no idea how to do gcg I was using facts as well. When I was talking about easy competition, I was referring to QOC realative corsi, which he was well below the average. The large difference is odd, but I generally trust relative corsi better for assessing this. Beyond that not much more can be said, we just have to wait for the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William_Clarkson Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 t's like you said who cares where he was drafted tons of players were drafted later and became stars. Like you, drafted in the 5th round by the Texas Rangers? Never mind, you wrecked your shoulder so you never could become a star in the MLB. Well, at least you got some good years at LSU...except the person the Rangers drafted in the 5th round didn't go to LSU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeywoot Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Is he one currently? No.Could he become one next year? Yes.He's been improving steadily for last couple years. Our team needs a player of this type.He will be put in a position to proceed. We'll see what happens.Anaheim fans were obsessed with this guy last year, and were surprised he was the one traded in the Kesler deal. I guess we'll find out whether that was just hype.Prediction: Our PP bounces back (but not to the very top). Bonino breaks 50 pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fakename70 Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 It depends on the team he's on. Unfortunately, he's on this one. And, by "unfortunately" I mean that he's not an upgrade or even the same calibre of player compared to the guy he replaced. He put up some good numbers last season, sure. But, that was as a 3-liner, yes? And, on an Anaheim squad that was among the best in the entire league. He's got increased expectations in Vancouver than he did in Anaheim, but, those 2 clubs on paper are night and day. I can't see him putting up the same numbers in VAN unless he's paired with Vrbata. And, if those 2 are somehow linemates, that won't be a good sign with regards to the Sedin line, which obviously still holds the key to the team's entire season, offensively. Bonino could be a solid 2nd line centre...on a team with lowered expectations and a younger core of key players. Hope he proves me wrong, but, right now I'm not looking forward to him centering the 2nd line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.53 Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Here's a look at other expected 2nd line centers in the league. Make a decision after on whether you think Nick Bonino belongs. Anaheim: Ryan Kesler Arizona: Sam Gagner Boston: David Krejci Buffalo: Cody Hodgson Calgary: Mikael Backlund/Sean Monahan Carolina: Jordan Staal Chicago: Brad Richards Colorado: Ryan Oreilly? (Maybe Nathan Mackinnon) Columbus: Brandon Dubinsky Dallas: Jason Spezza Detroit: Stephen Wiess/Darren Helm Edmonton: Leon Draisatl Florida: Nick Bjugstad/Dave Bolland LA: Jeff Carter Minnesota: Mikael Granlund Montreal: Alex Galchenyuk Nashville: Olli Jokinen New Jersey: Adam Henrique NY Islanders: Mikhail Grabovski NY Rangers: Derrick Brassard Ottawa: Mika Zibanejad Philadelphia: Sean Cuturier/Brayden Schenn Pittsburgh: Evgeni Malkin San Jose: Logan Couture St Louis: Paul Stastny Tampa: Valterri Flipulla Toronto: Nazem Kadri Vancouver: Nick Bonino Washington: Marcus Johansson Winnipeg: Mark Scheiffle Italicized = Western Conference. Italicized and underlined = Pacific Devision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 ^ Draisatl? You think they throw him in? I know they have a habit of throwing them in but I'm not so sure they do that without seeing him play any pre season games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Here's a look at other expected 2nd line centers in the league. Make a decision after on whether you think Nick Bonino belongs. Anaheim: Ryan Kesler Arizona: Sam Gagner Boston: David Krejci Buffalo: Cody Hodgson Calgary: Mikael Backlund/Sean Monahan Carolina: Jordan Staal Chicago: Brad Richards Colorado: Ryan Oreilly? (Maybe Nathan Mackinnon) Columbus: Brandon Dubinsky Dallas: Jason Spezza Detroit: Stephen Wiess/Darren Helm Edmonton: Leon Draisatl Florida: Nick Bjugstad/Dave Bolland LA: Jeff Carter Minnesota: Mikael Granlund Montreal: Alex Galchenyuk Nashville: Olli Jokinen New Jersey: Adam Henrique NY Islanders: Mikhail Grabovski NY Rangers: Derrick Brassard Ottawa: Mika Zibanejad Philadelphia: Sean Cuturier/Brayden Schenn Pittsburgh: Evgeni Malkin San Jose: Logan Couture St Louis: Paul Stastny Tampa: Valterri Flipulla Toronto: Nazem Kadri Vancouver: Nick Bonino Washington: Marcus Johansson Winnipeg: Mark Scheiffle Easily belongs in that list. I'd say there's about 10 or so who are in an 'elite' class - Krejci, O'Reilly, Carter, Malkin, Stastny, Filpulla, Kesler, Couture, Spezza (although so over-rated)....I'd probably add Dubinsky, perhaps Henrique, but that's where it starts to close in. He's certainly is in a class with the rest of them (2/3) imo, and better than a number of them. There may be a few younger guys that are expected/projected to have higher 'ceilings' but that's beside the point (and a number of them will not pan out as expected) - at this point of his and their careers, he's certainly not outclassed by the majority of those players as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Even if our 2nd line is bottom third of the league, if we have a top third 3rd & 4th lines that get healthy minutes, it still makes us a playoff team. If Vrbata works with the Sedin's we can compete in the playoffs. My ideal situation has Bonino keeping up with last years pace but still getting beaten out for 2nd line center by xmas by Horvat. That would mean Horvat was pouring it on offensively as well as winning faceoffs and take away battles. Would be just as happy if Bonino actually picked up his scoring pace and proved us all wrong (I think he is bottom third for 2nd line centers) and became an elite 2nd line center! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanTSN Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 My honest, non-rose-coloured assessment based on what I've seen from all these players: Anaheim: Ryan Kesler > Bonino. Way better. Arizona: Sam Gagner > Bonino. Faster, more skilled. I think he surprises this year. If not still better. Boston: David Krejci > Bonino. Way better. Buffalo: Cody Hodgson > Bonino. Yup. Sorry. Calgary: Mikael Backlund/Sean Monahan > Bonino. Monahan is already better offensively. Backlund is due to do something. Faster and better defensively. Carolina: Jordan Staal > Bonino. Way better. Chicago: Brad Richards > Bonino. Even a declining version is better. Colorado: Ryan Oreilly? (Maybe Nathan Mackinnon) > Bonino. Both easily better. Columbus: Brandon Dubinsky > Bonino. Faster, tougher, more skilled. Dallas: Jason Spezza > Bonino. Easily. Detroit: Stephen Wiess/Darren Helm /= Bonino Zetterberg > Bonino. Zetterberg will likely center often, and he's in another league than Bonino. Edmonton: Leon Draisatl /= Bonino Long-term > Bonino. Draisaitl may perform right away, might not. So this is a question. Purcell may be converted if not? Not sure. Florida: Nick Bjugstad/Dave Bolland > Bonino. More skilled, faster. LA: Jeff Carter > Bonino. Way, way better. Minnesota: Mikael Granlund > Bonino. Due to break out. Way more skilled. Montreal: Alex Galchenyuk > Bonino. Due to break out. Way more skilled. Nashville: Olli Jokinen /= Bonino Wilson, Fisher, Ribeiro > Bonino. Jokinen will be further down the depth chart than those other, better guys. New Jersey: Adam Henrique > Bonino. Way better. NY Islanders: Mikhail Grabovski > Bonino. Faster, better, more skilled. NY Rangers: Derrick Brassard > Bonino. Faster, more skilled and consistently proven. Ottawa: Mika Zibanejad > Bonino. Due to break out. Faster, more skilled. Philadelphia: Sean Cuturier/Brayden Schenn > Bonino. Both far better. Pittsburgh: Evgeni Malkin > Bonino. Good God. San Jose: Logan Couture > Bonino. Way, way better. St Louis: Paul Stastny > Bonino. Way better. Tampa: Valterri Flipulla > Bonino. More proven, definitely. Toronto: Nazem Kadri > Bonino. Easily better. Washington: Marcus Johansson > Bonino. Underrated offensive force. Faster, more skilled. Winnipeg: Mark Scheiffle > Bonino. Will probably break out this season and is playing with Kane. This kinda puts it into perspective, so thanks. There's only one team, Edmonton, that might have a problem matching up against Bonino, but that isn't 100% due to us not knowing how good Draisaitl will be in his first season. (MacT thinks he's going to be Kopitar, however. lol) It must be understood that we were forced into the Kesler trade. We should not expect instant gratification on the return if that's the case. I wish Bonino luck in his new role as 2nd line center here, but realistically, odds are he's in over his head. Just based on es icetime requirements of that role alone, but more because of his lack of NHL-quality speed, tenacity and two-way ability beyond picking off some neutral zone outlets. On the bright side, there will be room for Horvat, Gaunce, McCann and Cassels to thrive here, in the long run. Fox and Virtanen can also play center. I think they all have some real potential. So after the rebuilding phase is completed, hopefully we'll be stacked up the middle. (Thinking prime NJ Devils-like center depth. They drafted and developed most of those guys.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 ^^ You've already stated that you think Bonino is a plug, Give it a rest. Your opinions are based on personal opinion, and not on fact. Do us a favor and keep it to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Ban Tsn, I'm going to start reporting you. Your trolling is getting pretty ridiculous. I also really want to see you get banned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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