Short term pain for long term gain (Discussion)

[messier's_elbow]

Long term gain. We have vets that should be moved for picks in a strong draft year. We can retool pretty fast imo.

We probably should but we wont, unless we tank the next 10 games. Too many NTC and Aquilini wanting playoff revenue.

[J.I.A.H.N]

Hey William_Clarkson

I just don't get this hang on to your vets thing...at some point we have to stop hoping and wishing for luck and put our selves in a position where we have improved our chances in drafting first line players...either we do this year, next year or the year after that, but we will either do the Calgary model and wait too long, or we will do the old Canuck model from years ago, where we just toil around the middle, never getting those elite players

I have seen both and don't approve.........way too " luck " dependent. I would rather use our assets to obtain those better picks in a strong draft.........yes I do approve of your way....wait until the Deadline, but it does sound like Toronto is thinking of doing the same thing.......they are in a worse position than we are, because of their terrible contracts (Good Work Benning)

So for me, I believe I know where they rank and I believe even now, Dallas and Colorado will pass them by the end of the season, actually think they will both do it in Feb......and we will be out....my only fear is we don't move anything, using hope and ticket holder pressure as our reasons for not doing what is needed.

I know this history has not been written yet, and you are right, when suggesting we wait, it actually makes sense on many levels to wait....this is just my opinion all wrapped up and presented to CDC

The Stats.....tell us where we are now and what we should do.....the end of February will say how far Benning; should go......I don't mind waiting until then

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

@sedins23

Heh, look s like we're on the same page just different editions

I've been of the belief ELC status shouldn't really ever enter the equation for player development. You never know how a player will progress and what their value will be worth at the end of the ELC. If a big pay day happens to come earlier, great! That means the Canucks have a keeper. ELC status is something I think people overthink sometimes.

I hope we have someone in our system who is as clutch as Hodgson was in his good' ol days (11 of hodgson's 16 goals with us in 2011-2012 came when we were either trailing by a goal or leading by a goal, 10 of them came when were trailing and 10 of them in the third period. I will never forget that game against Montreal where the game was 3-1 in Montreals favour and we could not get anything past price and he scored a clutch goal to bring it within one then we tied it. He then was the only canuck to score and won it for us in the shoot-out. He was the definition of clutch. Bob McKenzie said he has a rare ability within him to score key goals at key times.

We really need someone like that, its fun to watch and not to mention Vancouver fans appreciate clutch players more then most fan bases. Linden is always said along with Bure for that reason.

[sockeye]

Well, I also mentioned earlier if we didn't have the Sedins, we'd also have 14mil in cap space to sign other big names or do a big trade. May I also remind you have Vrbata and Hamhuis were both signed as free agents.

So in 2 years, we'll just have different players filling those roles. We just don't know who those players will be yet. (we could even still have the Sedins)

I wouldn't worry so much if I were you.

I'm with you Lock. First, we don't have any assets that will fetch us a top 10 first rounder. And no way we trade a good young asset like Tanev. I'm also assuming that we don't ask the Sedins to waive their no trade clause; that would be disrespectful of players that have earned the right to retire as Canucks. So if we know we can't land a top 10 first rounder then we have to look at other ways to improve the team.

Other ways like developing our prospects the proper way and developing them slowly. Like signing high quality UFAs such as Vrbata and Miller. We also need to rely on excellent scouting. I prefer the Detroit model over the OIlers model. How many top 10 first rounders has Detroit had in the last 15 years. I'd be surprised if they had one. They develop their prospects slowly and they are shrewd with their draft picks. Most of the Detroit roster consists of 2nd or later round draft picks. Even their Hall of Famer Nick Lidstrom wasn't a first round pick. What a lot of people don't realize is there are lots of first round draft picks that don't stick in the NHL. We also need less contracts with No Trade Clauses to give us the flexibility we need when we need it (when there is a good hockey trade out there that makes sense).

From what I've seen from JB and TL, I trust that they will make the right decisions.

[William_Clarkson]

Hey William_Clarkson

I just don't get this hang on to your vets thing...at some point we have to stop hoping and wishing for luck and put our selves in a position where we have improved our chances in drafting first line players...either we do this year, next year or the year after that, but we will either do the Calgary model and wait too long, or we will do the old Canuck model from years ago, where we just toil around the middle, never getting those elite players

I have seen both and don't approve.........way too " luck " dependent. I would rather use our assets to obtain those better picks in a strong draft.........yes I do approve of your way....wait until the Deadline, but it does sound like Toronto is thinking of doing the same thing.......they are in a worse position than we are, because of their terrible contracts (Good Work Benning)

So for me, I believe I know where they rank and I believe even now, Dallas and Colorado will pass them by the end of the season, actually think they will both do it in Feb......and we will be out....my only fear is we don't move anything, using hope and ticket holder pressure as our reasons for not doing what is needed.

I know this history has not been written yet, and you are right, when suggesting we wait, it actually makes sense on many levels to wait....this is just my opinion all wrapped up and presented to CDC

The Stats.....tell us where we are now and what we should do.....the end of February will say how far Benning; should go......I don't mind waiting until then

I wouldn't mind trading one or two, but at the deadline, if the Canucks do get passed. If the Canucks look like they'll make the playoffs, there's no point making the team worse. Assuming said playoff run is unsuccessful you could look to moving players at the draft as well.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

I wouldn't mind trading one or two, but at the deadline, if the Canucks do get passed. If the Canucks look like they'll make the playoffs, there's no point making the team worse. Assuming said playoff run is unsuccessful you could look to moving players at the draft as well.

We are stuck either way. We aren't winning the cup and we aren't getting a top 3 draft pick. Only thing positive is we are stalling to give time to develop our players.

[Baggins]

I've no words for this

Can you address OPs points at all or will you just ignore a well founded argument that in all honesty in no way suggests tanking? ?

If you want top 5, or even top 10 picks, you're certainly not winning. Moving your veterans to lose more and get higher draft picks, as the op suggested, is in fact tanking is it not?

[Baggins]

Ballard - I was ok with this one, but after how he was utilized by AV it pissed me off and it just destroyed Ballard, blame AV.

This has become something of a pet peeve of mine. AV did not destroy Ballard.

1. Was Ballard better offensively than Edler? Nope.
2. Was Ballard better defensively than Hamhuis? Nope.
3. Could Ballard be moved to the right side. Tried it and nope.
4. Where did that leave Ballard? Third pair left side behind Edler and Hamhuis.

Ballard sucked in that third pair role as he just couldn't seem to adapt to it. Even when given the opportunity to move up due to injury he sucked bad enough to make Bieksa look elite. Ballard got what he earned here - a buyout. Personally I don't think he was ever the same player after that hip surgery.

[Baggins]

Hey William_Clarkson

I just don't get this hang on to your vets thing...at some point we have to stop hoping and wishing for luck and put our selves in a position where we have improved our chances in drafting first line players...either we do this year, next year or the year after that, but we will either do the Calgary model and wait too long, or we will do the old Canuck model from years ago, where we just toil around the middle, never getting those elite players

I have seen both and don't approve.........way too " luck " dependent. I would rather use our assets to obtain those better picks in a strong draft.........yes I do approve of your way....wait until the Deadline, but it does sound like Toronto is thinking of doing the same thing.......they are in a worse position than we are, because of their terrible contracts (Good Work Benning)

So for me, I believe I know where they rank and I believe even now, Dallas and Colorado will pass them by the end of the season, actually think they will both do it in Feb......and we will be out....my only fear is we don't move anything, using hope and ticket holder pressure as our reasons for not doing what is needed.

I know this history has not been written yet, and you are right, when suggesting we wait, it actually makes sense on many levels to wait....this is just my opinion all wrapped up and presented to CDC

The Stats.....tell us where we are now and what we should do.....the end of February will say how far Benning; should go......I don't mind waiting until then

Were they going this route they wouldn't have bothered signing Vrbata and Miller. They didn't sign them with the idea of winning the cup, they were signed to keep the team competitive while adding youth.

Regardless of the route taken it will likely be 5 years before seeing this team as a contender again. Gut the team and ownership is looking at financial losses for likely the next four or five years. We went from a five to seven year waiting list to empty seats missing the playoffs once. History has shown Vancouver fans disappear when the team is a bottom feeder. Fair weather fans here. Even Bure couldn't keep butts in the seats when the team was on it's way down.

Or as chosen, there's the transition route. Remain competitive and add youth as it's developed. It may not sell out every game but it will keep butts in the seats if we can compete. It's easy to say gut and go after top picks when the ten to twenty mill loss every year isn't coming out of your pocket. The worst aspect of course is tanking doesn't guarantee future success any more than rebuilding does. It just guarantees empty seats. Plenty of teams, not just Edmonton, have wallowed their way through for many years despite high draft picks. There are no guarantees in the draft. Remember "The Next Great One" Alexandre Daigle?

Btw, don't mistake the term "compete" to mean compete for the cup. It just means winning more often than losing. Being one of the teams making the playoffs. Accomplish that and, if the stars align, anything can happen.

[spook007]

Were they going this route they wouldn't have bothered signing Vrbata and Miller. They didn't sign them with the idea of winning the cup, they were signed to keep the team competitive while adding youth.

Regardless of the route taken it will likely be 5 years before seeing this team as a contender again. Gut the team and ownership is looking at financial losses for likely the next four or five years. We went from a five to seven year waiting list to empty seats missing the playoffs once. History has shown Vancouver fans disappear when the team is a bottom feeder. Fair weather fans here. Even Bure couldn't keep butts in the seats when the team was on it's way down.

Or as chosen, there's the transition route. Remain competitive and add youth as it's developed. It may not sell out every game but it will keep butts in the seats if we can compete. It's easy to say gut and go after top picks when the ten to twenty mill loss every year isn't coming out of your pocket. The worst aspect of course is tanking doesn't guarantee future success any more than rebuilding does. It just guarantees empty seats. Plenty of teams, not just Edmonton, have wallowed their way through for many years despite high draft picks. There are no guarantees in the draft. Remember "The Next Great One" Alexandre Daigle?

Btw, don't mistake the term "compete" to mean compete for the cup. It just means winning more often than losing. Being one of the teams making the playoffs. Accomplish that and, if the stars align, anything can happen.

Exactly...Its a business. End of.

[badbeatjackpot]

Were they going this route they wouldn't have bothered signing Vrbata and Miller. They didn't sign them with the idea of winning the cup, they were signed to keep the team competitive while adding youth.

Regardless of the route taken it will likely be 5 years before seeing this team as a contender again. Gut the team and ownership is looking at financial losses for likely the next four or five years. We went from a five to seven year waiting list to empty seats missing the playoffs once. History has shown Vancouver fans disappear when the team is a bottom feeder. Fair weather fans here. Even Bure couldn't keep butts in the seats when the team was on it's way down.

Or as chosen, there's the transition route. Remain competitive and add youth as it's developed. It may not sell out every game but it will keep butts in the seats if we can compete. It's easy to say gut and go after top picks when the ten to twenty mill loss every year isn't coming out of your pocket. The worst aspect of course is tanking doesn't guarantee future success any more than rebuilding does. It just guarantees empty seats. Plenty of teams, not just Edmonton, have wallowed their way through for many years despite high draft picks. There are no guarantees in the draft. Remember "The Next Great One" Alexandre Daigle?

Btw, don't mistake the term "compete" to mean compete for the cup. It just means winning more often than losing. Being one of the teams making the playoffs. Accomplish that and, if the stars align, anything can happen.

While I agree that having a winning or at least a competitive culture is better for developing prospects, I don't agree with the greater than thou attitudes of some CDCers who stand on the pulpit and call the fans of Vancouver fickle. In fact, the majority of us are quite far from being fickle. In fact we are diehards without ever winning a cup. We are cup starved if anything. Not fickle. The declining wait list for season tickets is due to the Aquilinis greed and the over inflated ticket prices which charge virtually scalper fees for regular pricing. The ticket prices are so high that it squeezed the scalpers out of the market. As a fan who had season tickets during the Bure era, we were averaging 17000 for attendance his final year so I call BS on you for making things up. Attendance was very strong during the Bure era until then end minus the lockout year.

[BanTSN]

With pro scouting and development these days, selecting an outright bust like Daigle 1st overall is almost an impossibility. Only Edmonton has been having trouble with their high picks, and that's 1 out of 30 teams. 29 other teams have not had the same issues, like not trading down and selecting Yakupov when they already had Eberle, and selecting Hall over Seguin, RNH over Landy, not properly developing their guys and starting them early, etc. If you ignore Edmonton altogether you'll find that selecting some high picks, if planned correctly and they are developed correctly, has it's clear benefits. Franchise players don't grow on trees. They're usually in those high picks. Sometimes you might find them in later rounds, but the odds are like winning the lottery. Good luck, buck.

The worst thing for attendance figures isn't getting this kind of picks. Getting those picks works the opposite way as fans usually get excited when those picks come in and contribute right away and then your team starts looking like a contender again. YES it takes more than just getting those picks, but without those picks you're securing mediocrity instead. How is a team to get ahead of the pack without franchise players? In the cap era? Again, good luck, buck.

I hope Linden and Benning have come up with a good plan to use the draft (along with great scouting and player development, trades and free agency) to rebuild this team into a contender, because otherwise we're in a long haul here as the Sedins wind up their careers and our replacements aren't there.

[Monteeun]

There's really no need for any panic. We are in a situation where we are fazing in youth into a mix of veterans.

If this is considered bad, then i'll take this over any other kind of bad.

[hockeyking]

With pro scouting and development these days, selecting an outright bust like Daigle 1st overall is almost an impossibility. Only Edmonton has been having trouble with their high picks, and that's 1 out of 30 teams. 29 other teams have not had the same issues, like not trading down and selecting Yakupov when they already had Eberle, and selecting Hall over Seguin, RNH over Landy, not properly developing their guys and starting them early, etc. If you ignore Edmonton altogether you'll find that selecting some high picks, if planned correctly and they are developed correctly, has it's clear benefits. Franchise players don't grow on trees. They're usually in those high picks. Sometimes you might find them in later rounds, but the odds are like winning the lottery. Good luck, buck.

The worst thing for attendance figures isn't getting this kind of picks. Getting those picks works the opposite way as fans usually get excited when those picks come in and contribute right away and then your team starts looking like a contender again. YES it takes more than just getting those picks, but without those picks you're securing mediocrity instead. How is a team to get ahead of the pack without franchise players? In the cap era? Again, good luck, buck.

I hope Linden and Benning have come up with a good plan to use the draft (along with great scouting and player development, trades and free agency) to rebuild this team into a contender, because otherwise we're in a long haul here as the Sedins wind up their careers and our replacements aren't there.

You forget this is Vancouver if this team starts sucking then the big business will not renew their tickets which is where they get allot of their money from it might get the fans excited but will it get them to open their checkbook, I think not.

There are other pieces why not get those pieces set first and enjoy the hockey and tank one or two years instead of having a bad team longer, while we wait to get those other pieces. This method also gives the potential and opportunity for a franchise player to emerge from the later rounds maybe you are lucky. This method not only minimizes the winning and maximizes the profits.

As of right now there is no way to get a top pick because the sedins alone make that impossible and without that there is less chance we get a franchise player and wasted a year. The sedins want to stay in vancouver so they aren't going to waive it either. good luck buck getting that top pick you so badly want

Just be patient now is not the time to tank just yet, but it's time to get the players necessary for the next generation which is already happening right now.

[-DLC-]

While I agree that having a winning or at least a competitive culture is better for developing prospects, I don't agree with the greater than thou attitudes of some CDCers who stand on the pulpit and call the fans of Vancouver fickle. In fact, the majority of us are quite far from being fickle. In fact we are diehards without ever winning a cup. We are cup starved if anything. Not fickle. The declining wait list for season tickets is due to the Aquilinis greed and the over inflated ticket prices which charge virtually scalper fees for regular pricing. The ticket prices are so high that it squeezed the scalpers out of the market. As a fan who had season tickets during the Bure era, we were averaging 17000 for attendance his final year so I call BS on you for making things up. Attendance was very strong during the Bure era until then end minus the lockout year.

The ticket prices are so high that it squeezed the scalpers out of the market.

You speak as though this is a bad thing? Why on EARTH should some lazy slob buy up all the tickets, inflate the prices and then sell them back to others (me) on the street? I hate those guys that get in people's faces outside the rink "got tickets? need tickets?". This also makes way for counterfeit tickets and people to be ripped off. This is not a bad thing (to get them out of the market)....squeeze them until they're dry and no longer profiting off greed vs hard work (how the rest of us earn a living).

[Guest]

Agree with you on many levels. How many picks actually turn out as expected, QUICKLY? No, long term success is a waiting game, full of player development. Yes, you have to draft good players to start with, not even Scotty Bowman could turn, say...Tom Sestito...into Milan Lucic, or someone similar. But do you think that you can have the average junior player ready to play a 200 foot game the year after he is drafted? No, this is development.

I think your "5 years" is about right. By then, our centers could likely be Horvat, Cassels, McCann and someone else we don't have yet; wingers of Jensen, Shinkaruk, Virtanen, Grenier (big maybe) and Gaunce, with a couple more unknowns and left from the current team possibly Bonino, Matthias, Hansen and Vey. Defensemen of McNally, Hutton, Pedan, Tryamkin and holdovers of Tanev, Edler and Corrado (sorry, I don't see Subban as a Canuck, ever; he'll be tradebait for an eastern team). Goalies of Demko and Lack. Is this a GREAT team? Nah, don't think so. Will it be competitive and playoff worthy? Yep. Here's the key point. By then, the cap $$$ will be fixed, as the contracts for the twins and Luongo will be off the books, and we can sign a star to some ridiculous contract to 1) center the top line and feed Virtanen into a 40-50 goal scorer, or 2) be a Norris candidate, scare the h**l out of forwards attempting to park in front of our net, and Q-Back the power play into a lethal weapon. THEN, we win the cup.

[Guest]

That should have read - Baggins, agree with you...

[BanTSN]

You forget this is Vancouver if this team starts sucking then the big business will not renew their tickets which is where they get allot of their money from it might get the fans excited but will it get them to open their checkbook, I think not.

There are other pieces why not get those pieces set first and enjoy the hockey and tank one or two years instead of having a bad team longer, while we wait to get those other pieces. This method also gives the potential and opportunity for a franchise player to emerge from the later rounds maybe you are lucky. This method not only minimizes the winning and maximizes the profits.

As of right now there is no way to get a top pick because the sedins alone make that impossible and without that there is less chance we get a franchise player and wasted a year. The sedins want to stay in vancouver so they aren't going to waive it either. good luck buck getting that top pick you so badly want

Just be patient now is not the time to tank just yet, but it's time to get the players necessary for the next generation which is already happening right now.

I agree that there may be a plan in place here. Patience is the key. Just hope it pans out.

[tyhee]

Baggins, on 19 Jan 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

Were they going this route they wouldn't have bothered signing Vrbata and Miller. They didn't sign them with the idea of winning the cup, they were signed to keep the team competitive while adding youth.

Regardless of the route taken it will likely be 5 years before seeing this team as a contender again. Gut the team and ownership is looking at financial losses for likely the next four or five years. We went from a five to seven year waiting list to empty seats missing the playoffs once. History has shown Vancouver fans disappear when the team is a bottom feeder. Fair weather fans here. Even Bure couldn't keep butts in the seats when the team was on it's way down.

Or as chosen, there's the transition route. Remain competitive and add youth as it's developed. It may not sell out every game but it will keep butts in the seats if we can compete. It's easy to say gut and go after top picks when the ten to twenty mill loss every year isn't coming out of your pocket. The worst aspect of course is tanking doesn't guarantee future success any more than rebuilding does. It just guarantees empty seats. Plenty of teams, not just Edmonton, have wallowed their way through for many years despite high draft picks. There are no guarantees in the draft. Remember "The Next Great One" Alexandre Daigle?

Btw, don't mistake the term "compete" to mean compete for the cup. It just means winning more often than losing. Being one of the teams making the playoffs. Accomplish that and, if the stars align, anything can happen.

badbeat, you are right in saying Canucks fans aren't fickle. Generally the fans of all of the Canadian teams are pretty loyal. The loyalty of the fans has enabled the team to have ticket prices among the highest in the league the past few years and even during the long years of mediocre teams the attendance was never like it has been in some markets where there have been many thousands of empty seats at times.

However, I still think baggins' point is a good one. Even among a loyal fanbase, it is inevitable that a long-term losing team will bring less revenue from seat sales, from merchandise sales and from rights fees. A team could keep all the seats full in Vancouver by dropping the price of tickets, but that's just another way that revenue drops.

So, it's good business for the Canucks to want to provide the fans who pay their money over the next few years and beyond with a reasonable chance, when attending games, of seeing the home team win, while also building for the future to increase the chances of having a consistently competitive team and one that on occasion might challenge for the S.C.

[Canuck Surfer]

Goof Morning Surfer

Hey, look! I started this post because I see the current team as weak. I could be wrong and would love nothing better than to be wrong, I would love to see the Canucks win the Stanley Cup with in the next 5 years, and my hat would taste very good if that happened. I am a Canuck fan, but also a realist.

I do agree with everyone that says you can't trade all your vets at one time.....totally agree. As for trading the Sedins.....I do not recall ever saying that, as a matter of fact, I purposely avoided any suggestion of that.......and if I did, it wasn't my intent.

What I wanted to do was bring it to everyone attention, just how the Canucks are truly playing, we haven't had many injuries, although loosing Hamhuis is a big loss, but in my opinion it hasn't really shown that much.....personally, I thought that Hamhuis had shown some questionable play before he had got injured...I think he is a minus player??? But I regress

Bottom line for me is our players have a shelf life and the Sedins are a perfect example.........3 years ago, it didn't matter that they were of average speed, we had a higher end supporting staff. Now, it appears to me that they have lost a step, and in another 3 years I would imagine they will be even slower and will not be able to be first line players.......for older players the first thing to show they are starting to fall behind is their feet. Sedins are already showing this.

So, OK! Let's go forward 2 years, the Sedins are slower, and are absolutely 2nd liners.........who will be our first liners? Where will our first line come from?

Well, I advocate, that we move early and obtain another 1st round pick sooner, in a strong draft, where the chances of picking a higher end player later in the first round are better.

When I started this, I actually had picked Vrbata, as we only have him for 2 years, he is top 5 in LW scoring and I believe is an easy sell to a team wanting to stock up...anywhere from 16th OA to 22 OA is fine with me, and he is worth it. Can you guarantee he will resign....why did he leave Arizona? I think money and loosing....well we will not be as strong in 2 years, neither will he be, so I say bite the bullet now, while his value is highest.

We need so much in terms of High end talent.........we need at least 2 first line players and at least 1 first line defenseman to be picked in the next 2 years.....after all, it will take another year or 2 of junior and 1 or 2 years in Utica before they are ready, IF we hit it out, with those selections......they need to be the highest selections we can get, and as soon as we can. IMO.

I was looking at the schedule for the rest of the year.....I noticed that we have 4 games left in Jan....we should go at least 2-2 in those games, when we go into Feb., we have 14 games I believe, this is where it will swing one way or the other, if the Canucks win some of the games we shouldn't and end up with a higher point total than what was expected, I will be surprised.....personally, I will be surprised if we go 7 and 7 in Feb......my call......5 and 9 for Feb. But you never know? I remember Benning saying something to this effect...."we will have a better understanding after Feb" I think I remember him saying that, correct me if I am wrong on that one.

Either way, I am easy on them trading Kassian (although I wouldn't), Higgins, and maybe one of our UFA's (I think their value is higher than most would think).......but more importantly, I would make sure I resigned the remainder of those UFA's before they hit the market....all are able to play 3 line, and all show workman like leadership, something I agree our prospects need to be around.

Lastly, I still want another first rounder, and probably another high second rounder, in this years draft, we shall see what transpires.......

I think these bolded sections probably highlight your position?

There is no question I believe you are panicking! And not being realistic; ''We need so much in terms of High end talent.........we need at least 2 first line players and at least 1 first line defenseman to be picked in the next 2 years....''

It takes years, some luck and good development to get most players to first line capacity. And you dont really know where they are going to come from?

Look at first Calgary who is enjoying a current resurgence. Its based on Giordano coming out of his shell, Gio was an undrafted free agent signing ten years ago. But more the birth of Brodie as a top line D, Monahan and Johnny Hockey as top line forwards. It matches your wish to have a new top line D and two dynamic forwards. Brodie a 4th round pick the same year we drafted CoHo. Gaudreau a 4th rounder in 2011. Only Monahan was a blue chip guy, picked 6th overall in 2013 and defying odds because he was an instant hit. Young players Colburne and Jooris have have been less significant, but also an impact. Colburne was originally a 16th overall pick, but was acquired for a 4th rounder after he was given up on by Toronto. Jooris another undrafted find, signed like we found Tanev. None were assets acquired in the Iggy trade. My point is these were not players all drafted in a short period by acquiring top picks fireselling Iginla or any other veterans.

And similarly when we last rose; The Twins were blue chip picks but ten years removed. Kesler a mid first rounder. But the balance of our core a collection of undrafted signee's and 2knd to 5th rounders...(Burrows, Edler, Hansen, Bieksa). We did not rise on the back of suddenly having a mitfull of picks from any capitulation sale of our veterans. The biggest common denominator was having 3 or 4 good young players surface in a short period! What is also common was the presence of veterans like Demitra, Sundin and Mitchell for us, Glencross, Giordano and Wideman for Calgary's youth as role models & stabilizing veteran influences to play with.

Not getting rid of those veterans to acquire the players who turned their team around.

Look, we need young players to surface! I just do not, and will not agree that dumping productive players is any proven way of guaranteeing we can get them. We have to become a team like Anaheim, San Jose, LA or Detroit that routinely manufactures good players developing them from good drafting. Over a period of years it has the net effect.