Analytics were right about Gudbranson

[Rush17]

1 hour ago, darkpoet said:

Fixed that for you.

lol. they both really do. guddy is good when he's behind a player. Tryamkin is really good both forwards and backwards. 

 

the way he held the line against the Rangers during that long o zone stretch was impressive.  I thought for sure it was out of the zone.

 

Tryamkin!!! fighting!!!!!!

[LaBamba]

5 hours ago, oldnews said:

"Gudbranson is an average at best third pairing defenseman that 'bleeds shots' and is a 'throwback' to a former age but is now 'behind the curve'.....And he'll cost too much.   And stay at home D are so passeeeeeay!"   Subban is better than Weber, Larsson suckz, etc, etc.  Thanalyticzzz!

 

"Oh yeah, well McCann is a smurf with a bad attitude who bites off more than he can chew....and gained too much weight over the summer.   He wasn't gonna make it as a top 6 here anyway, cause he's already 19 and a half and he looked too young for the NHL throw the 2nd half of last season."

 

Bust for bust, but the Canucks will overpay for their bust!  Cause that's what Benning doez.  So Florida winz this.  Addition by subtraction.

 

Oh yeah, well Willie Mitchell thinks your a fn dumby.

 

 

 

 

 

Has Willie Mitchell looked at the standings? 

[LimitedEdition]

You can't teach hockey sense and that is precisely what's missing from Gudbranson's game.  It's evident after only 18 games.  He's a below average passer and his positional play is questionable.  Florida knew this and that's why they traded him.  He reminds me of Jason Garrison a little bit, but with better wheels but no rocket of a point shot. 

 

If the Canucks resign him it shouldn't be more than 2.5 or 3 million. Any more than that and I think they should trade him at th deadline. 

[Blömqvist]

Y'all are wildin' on this one. You tell me what Gudbranson's teammates in Florida thought of him, then compare that with what McCann's teammates in Vancouver thought of him. There's a definite value disparity there, in that for one reason or another Gudbranson's former teammates showed their disgust of the trade, while McCann's former teammates for one reason or another voiced their opinion as well. 

 

There's value on the ice, there's value in stats, and there's value in the locker room.   Value isn't just in the numbers. Games aren't won by just putting value in the numbers. If that were true then we would've won two cups with the Twins, Ovechkin would have a couple cups as well, and LA and Boston -- by looking at the numbers -- would never have won their cups. Hockey isn't played by numbers. It's a game played on the ice; dynamically changing with each passing moment. It's a team game. Heart against heart. There are no numbers to measure that. The analytics are right about Gudbranson, but they can't be 100% right and predict success all the time. That's why the games are played.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Way too soon to make this judgement.

 

OP is ignoring the fact the team overall is playing poorly and being coached poorly.

 

I think the Canuck's defense is much better than it was last year.  We are giving up fewer goals and we are moving the puck out of our end faster.

 

The plus/minus issue is a function of the lack of scoring, not lack of defense.

[Mattrek]

 

That says all anyone needs to know about the caliber of player Gudbranson is.

[TheCammer]

On 11/16/2016 at 8:39 AM, LaBamba said:

 

Hahaha McCann is a dud (20 years old) 

 

Gudbransen is only 24 hahah 

 

I love when I don't even have to say anything to burn guys like this. 

 

Blatant self soothing homerism. 

 

Let me guess, Virtanen still has potiential too eh? Even though him and Dud McCann are the same age and getting about the same amount of ice. 

 

Horrible logic. 

I didn't say McCann wad a dud, bust etc. I said he's not a scoring phenom at this point.

 

D-men generally take time to develop and 27 - 30 is prime.time. The Hutton / Gudbrandsen pairing has had a few rough outings of late, analytics-wise but if you watch, you'll see you could hang a number of the goals on forward turnovers and poor backside pressure.

 

Did I say anything about Virtanen?

 

Tell me your hockey experience? What makes your "opinion" so much more valid than others. I'm happy to share mine,  troll. Ever ride a bus in juniors? Win a National Championship? Ever cash a cheque for playing? Advanced coaching certificate? Then STFU

 

 

[Baggins]

14 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

 

Dallas also has a shot at winning the cup if they go on a hot streak and they're in the west so Hamhuis would be willing to take a bit of a pay cut. 

 

Also Vancouver was left with paying Sbisa or letting him walk and with no one in the wings at that time paying Sbisa was the better option. 

 

In all reality his contract isn't bad. 

 

What many don't seem to get is if we paid him what was suggested by many here (a pay cut) we would have had to let him go to free agency to do it. I mean really, why would a young guy take a pay cut for a team he has no loyalty to when could could test the free market instead? Alternately had we went with a status quo on his salary (and he actually agreed to it) it would have been a one year deal, not three. Sbisa was young, not stupid.

 

Benning signed him to a progressive three deal gambling Sbisa would improve each season. And he has improved each season. It wasn't a bad gamble on Bennings part as it could have turned into a little overpaid in the first year and progressed to very underpaid in the final year. As it turned out it's not a win, but it's not a big loss either.

[Twilight Sparkle]

2 hours ago, TheCammer said:

Tell me your hockey experience? What makes your "opinion" so much more valid than others. I'm happy to share mine,  troll. Ever ride a bus in juniors? Win a National Championship? Ever cash a cheque for playing? Advanced coaching certificate? Then STFU

 

 

you got triggered by cdc's black mamba XD

[Baggins]

15 hours ago, Horvats_Big_Head said:

Gudbranson is far from the problem. We need somebody like him. If we had a better team he would have a better +/-

 

That's just it. If you're playing hard minutes and your team just isn't scoring you're going to be a minus player. Most of the top shutdown guys in league are in the minus because of who they play against as opposed to who plays in front of them. Last year, with Sutter out, Horvat was forced to play tough opposition and finished with the worst +/- on the team. Mainly because the first half of the season he didn't produce much at all offensively. I didn't see anybody here saying he sucked defensively.

[aGENT]

4 hours ago, TheCammer said:

Tell me your hockey experience? What makes your "opinion" so much more valid than others. I'm happy to share mine,  troll. Ever ride a bus in juniors? Win a National Championship? Ever cash a cheque for playing? Advanced coaching certificate? Then STFU

 

 

 

To be fair, I don't need to have any of that experience to know that line of thinking is completely lacking context or any critical thought. 

 

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

 

That's just it. If you're playing hard minutes and your team just isn't scoring you're going to be a minus player. Most of the top shutdown guys in league are in the minus because of who they play against as opposed to who plays in front of them. Last year, with Sutter out, Horvat was forced to play tough opposition and finished with the worst +/- on the team. Mainly because the first half of the season he didn't produce much at all offensively. I didn't see anybody here saying he sucked defensively.

 

Hey, lookie there, context! 

[LaBamba]

6 hours ago, TheCammer said:

I didn't say McCann wad a dud, bust etc. I said he's not a scoring phenom at this point.

 

D-men generally take time to develop and 27 - 30 is prime.time. The Hutton / Gudbrandsen pairing has had a few rough outings of late, analytics-wise but if you watch, you'll see you could hang a number of the goals on forward turnovers and poor backside pressure.

 

Did I say anything about Virtanen?

 

Tell me your hockey experience? What makes your "opinion" so much more valid than others. I'm happy to share mine,  troll. Ever ride a bus in juniors? Win a National Championship? Ever cash a cheque for playing? Advanced coaching certificate? Then STFU

 

 

 

Ill never understand feelings and how not to hurt them no matter how hard I try. 

[kloubek]

9 hours ago, LimitedEdition said:

You can't teach hockey sense and that is precisely what's missing from Gudbranson's game.  It's evident after only 18 games.  He's a below average passer and his positional play is questionable.  Florida knew this and that's why they traded him.  He reminds me of Jason Garrison a little bit, but with better wheels but no rocket of a point shot. 

 

If the Canucks resign him it shouldn't be more than 2.5 or 3 million. Any more than that and I think they should trade him at th deadline. 

I echo your thoughts.  I will also add to this that although he is a big, strong guy, he doesn't always hit like he can.  I am not sure who it was against in the Phoenix game, but he skated towards a Coyotes player at the side boards, and just before he got there, the Coyotes player passed the puck and Gudbranson turned away.  He had plenty of time to drill the player into the boards, and would not have been out of position if he had done so.  So either he decided NOT to play a physical game, or he was worried that tying himself up would have created an offensive situation for the Coyotes.  (Which it would not have).  Either way, he made the wrong decision and could have punished the player he was bearing down on.  If we aren't going to get that hard hitting physical game from him, he doesn't bring a heck of a lot to the table in terms of other skills that would compensate adequately. 

It isn't that he doesn't hit.  In fact, I think he probably leads the team in hits, it is just that he doesn't hit as hard as I was hoping.  My thoughts that were with both him and Tryamkin that we would literally scare the opponents into turnovers.  It works for Tryamkin I think... not so much Guds.

[JM_]

Unscientific, biased, faux-statistics were right about someone??? 

[wallstreetamigo]

4 hours ago, Baggins said:

 

That's just it. If you're playing hard minutes and your team just isn't scoring you're going to be a minus player. Most of the top shutdown guys in league are in the minus because of who they play against as opposed to who plays in front of them. Last year, with Sutter out, Horvat was forced to play tough opposition and finished with the worst +/- on the team. Mainly because the first half of the season he didn't produce much at all offensively. I didn't see anybody here saying he sucked defensively.

 

This. +\- is not a good indicator of an individual player's defensive ability. Way too many uncontrollable factors involved in it to ever use it as anything other than a supporting stat alongside both other more specific stats and actually watching how a player plays.

 

Our team sucks at scoring and sucks a bit less at defending. That is pretty much the definition of +\- hell for anyone playing even reasonably tough minutes.

[wallstreetamigo]

People jump all over analytics to $&!# on Gudbranson but the games still have to be played and most analytics have a pretty hard time pinning down defensive play. None are perfect or definitive in determining a players defensive play because defensive play doesn't always fall neatly into tracked stat categories. There are many nuances involved that are tough to track with stats. Only way to know is to actually pay attention to how they play.

 

Is our overall defense better with Gudbranson? I would say yes. He and Hutton have struggled together but I think it is far too early to declare him useless. I think he will be wearing an A very soon and it's obvious that he still has room to improve on both sides of the puck. I like him a lot but then again I don't have unrealistic expectations on what he is or should be.

[LimitedEdition]

2 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

People jump all over analytics to $&!# on Gudbranson but the games still have to be played and most analytics have a pretty hard time pinning down defensive play. None are perfect or definitive in determining a players defensive play because defensive play doesn't always fall neatly into tracked stat categories. There are many nuances involved that are tough to track with stats. Only way to know is to actually pay attention to how they play.

 

Forget the analytics numbers.  Forget +/-.  Forget goals and assists.  Watch Gudbranson and it's obvious he isn't what was expected when Jim Benning traded for him.  Maybe he was over-hyped, but my expectation was a big, fast, defensive defenseman with a good first pass and a hard nosed game.  The reality is he isn't a great passer and has limited vision and hockey sense.  You can't develop this - it is what it is and at the age of 24 I don't know how much he can improve on this aspect of his game.

 

Is he still a player the Canucks should have on their team?  I think so.  His speed and size are assets and opposing teams notice this and think twice before running around and bullying players like the Sedins.  This is exactly why guys on the Florida Panthers loved him.  However, at the end of the day, I think he's been a disappointment because the defensive play and first pass isn't there. 

[riffraff]

25 minutes ago, kloubek said:

I echo your thoughts.  I will also add to this that although he is a big, strong guy, he doesn't always hit like he can.  I am not sure who it was against in the Phoenix game, but he skated towards a Coyotes player at the side boards, and just before he got there, the Coyotes player passed the puck and Gudbranson turned away.  He had plenty of time to drill the player into the boards, and would not have been out of position if he had done so.  So either he decided NOT to play a physical game, or he was worried that tying himself up would have created an offensive situation for the Coyotes.  (Which it would not have).  Either way, he made the wrong decision and could have punished the player he was bearing down on.  If we aren't going to get that hard hitting physical game from him, he doesn't bring a heck of a lot to the table in terms of other skills that would compensate adequately. 

It isn't that he doesn't hit.  In fact, I think he probably leads the team in hits, it is just that he doesn't hit as hard as I was hoping.  My thoughts that were with both him and Tryamkin that we would literally scare the opponents into turnovers.  It works for Tryamkin I think... not so much Guds.

Actually Guds had the biggest hit of the night in the first period just inside the yotes blue line along the wall....forget who he nailed.

[LimitedEdition]

1 minute ago, riffraff said:

Actually Guds had the biggest hit of the night in the first period just inside the yotes blue line along the wall....forget who he nailed.

 

Dylan Strome

[riffraff]

Just now, LimitedEdition said:

 

Dylan Strome

Hey-oh!

 

and I liked the no response too.....that was your standard fight after a hit hit.  But it was GUD so no takers.