Time for Tankers to face the TRUTH.

[189lb enforcers?]

10 hours ago, Baggins said:

Are we that far out of a platyoff spot? We've been in the mix all season. I can get behind that regardless of where we finish. I've enjoyed the games this season.

 

No team is going to trade elite prospects for aging players in "full decline". Your own words there. The primary assets would be middling picks and middling prospects that may not even be NHL ready. Teams in line for high picks won't be trading them for players in "full decline". Meaning filling the roster with AHL and UFA scrubs. No thanks.

Playoffs chances would be similar in either case. IMO, Miller has quietly provided the patches for this creaking, leaky vessel. 

 

Your point about elite prospects suggests that our vets are/were not worth much, and you will be proved right if JB and the prez of the Country Club continue to wait to sell off declining players. With these vets gone and their scrub trade returns occupying key roles, this team might look like a Carolina, Buffalo or Arizona, minus the top picks, which would logically be drafted next. 

 

The Country Club would be once again closed down and replaced with the lunchbox and blue chip prospects and yes, more filler Skille types, meanwhile, but through those few years past and this one, JB would be drafting with extra quality picks that he seems to have an aversion to, in reality.

 

I think watching a hungry, young roster of promise and intrigue is far more worthy of my time than watching the slow, methodical death march of the enevitable like we currently are. This team is currently on pace to rebuild on the same pace as Montreal or St Louis, arguably Pittsburg or Chicago too; merely using the draft to supplement their cores rather than replace them, also foregoing the trading of their declining vets, assuming that these teams have peaked, or in other cases, are against the cap or are making room for emerging rookies, etc. JB is currently rebuilding this team with the same strategic pace as an elite or competitive team.

 

I'd argue that it's fans like you, cheering for TL's refool, death-march hockey, are what's keeping these management team employed, rather than the tanker's philosophy, which has called for an end to the fading music of the idea of making the playoffs, for the sake of it, inspiite of the long term, scrub results from not actually rebuilding from the ground up.

 

Refool is the only brand of hockey I can say TL has delivered during his PR stint with this team and it's trendy city. The TDL is almost here again and you can almost hear the hockey world heave out yet another collective sign of disbelief at the philosophy this management annually demonstrates, as the clock winds down on another poorly executed rebuild strategy. 

 

Assuming that the work management has do do to rebuild is not to merely replace each expiring core player here as they implode into untradeable assets, how else does one describe the process that has got the current roster into a position that has the rebuild pace resemble a contenders, if it's not a refooling, rather than a rebuilding strategy. Selling the playoffs rather than a future is for you to swallow, but it's not for me. I remain dissapointed, but hopeful that things work out and they get lucky, not to be confused with effective, as managers. 

 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

.

[combover]

42 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Playoffs chances would be similar in either case. IMO, Miller has quietly provided the patches for this creaking, leaky vessel. 

 

Your point about elite prospects suggests that our vets are/were not worth much, and you will be proved right if JB and the prez of the Country Club continue to wait to sell off declining players. With these vets gone and their scrub trade returns occupying key roles, this team might look like a Carolina, Buffalo or Arizona, minus the top picks, which would logically be drafted next. 

 

The Country Club would be once again closed down and replaced with the lunchbox and blue chip prospects and yes, more filler Skille types, meanwhile, but through those few years past and this one, JB would be drafting with extra quality picks that he seems to have an aversion to, in reality.

 

I think watching a hungry, young roster of promise and intrigue is far more worthy of my time than watching the slow, methodical death march of the enevitable like we currently are. This team is currently on pace to rebuild on the same pace as Montreal or St Louis, arguably Pittsburg or Chicago too; merely using the draft to supplement their cores rather than replace them, also foregoing the trading of their declining vets, assuming that these teams have peaked, or in other cases, are against the cap or are making room for emerging rookies, etc. JB is currently rebuilding this team with the same strategic pace as an elite or competitive team.

 

I'd argue that it's fans like you, cheering for TL's refool, death-march hockey, are what's keeping these management team employed, rather than the tanker's philosophy, which has called for an end to the fading music of the idea of making the playoffs, for the sake of it, inspiite of the long term, scrub results from not actually rebuilding from the ground up.

 

Refool is the only brand of hockey I can say TL has delivered during his PR stint with this team and it's trendy city. The TDL is almost here again and you can almost hear the hockey world heave out yet another collective sign of disbelief at the philosophy this management annually demonstrates, as the clock winds down on another poorly executed rebuild strategy. 

 

Assuming that the work management has do do to rebuild is not to merely replace each expiring core player here as they implode into untradeable assets, how else does one describe the process that has got the current roster into a position that has the rebuild pace resemble a contenders, if it's not a refooling, rather than a rebuilding strategy. Selling the playoffs rather than a future is for you to swallow, but it's not for me. I remain dissapointed, but hopeful that things work out and they get lucky, not to be confused with effective, as managers. 

 

 

Excellent post. 

Catch phrases, hype and  unrealistic promises/expectations for a club devoid of top line skill. The benning era . 

 

[TheGuardian_]

6 hours ago, Baggins said:

I could care less about predictions. We were predicted to be a bottom feeder two years ago and had a 100 point season and made the playoffs. AV's first season we were also predicted to be a bottom feeder and made the playoffs. Predictions are a guessing game.

Actually not exactly accurate. The team traded for Luongo and that changed the odds. They started the season @ 20 to 1 tied, for 11th best odds in Vegas.

This year Vegas had them at 80 to 1, 100 to 1 and predicted they would be the third worst, although one of the two teams below them are different.

[Crabcakes]

16 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Actually not exactly accurate. The team traded for Luongo and that changed the odds. They started the season @ 20 to 1 tied, for 11th best odds in Vegas.

This year Vegas had them at 80 to 1, 100 to 1 and predicted they would be the third worst, although one of the two teams below them are different.

The East coast media was all over Benning when they saw that he wasn't following the Toronto model.  Hence the Vegas odds.

 

I've glad for that reason that Toronto is showing signs of playing better.  Although their defense is weak over all.  Because the criticism of Benning's plan isn't as heavy as it was.  

 

In my opinion, Benning's priority is finding prospects who may fill the Sedin's shoes and he'll still be looking for that top 6 left winger that he wanted and couldn't find last off season.

[stuman491]

16 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

Except, of course, this substantially reduces parity in the league. Which is the whole purpose of allowing weaker teams to pick before the stronger teams.

The loser point gives the allusion of parity. 

I doubt this reduces league parity at all.  It simply puts pressure on teams to do better at drafting and developing in order to stay competitive.  Every team will get enough high draft picks to keep their cupboards full.  There is no longer a reward for being bad.  Wouldn't you rather watch a league where every team is trying to win every game.  Rather than the Maple leafs play an AHL roster to get the first overall pick? 

[TheGuardian_]

7 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

In my opinion, Benning's priority is finding prospects who may fill the Sedin's shoes and he'll still be looking for that top 6 left winger that he wanted and couldn't find last off season.

Heard on the radio the other day, Benning etal will "just" draft the Sedin replacements in the next two drafts. If it is that easy why didn't he do it in the other two?

Or, scary part here, ANYONE he drafts will be the Sedin replacements, regardless of skill level.

[funkyfresh]

[greenbean30]

5 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Heard on the radio the other day, Benning etal will "just" draft the Sedin replacements in the next two drafts. If it is that easy why didn't he do it in the other two?

Or, scary part here, ANYONE he drafts will be the Sedin replacements, regardless of skill level.

Just curious how else you would expect to replace the Sedins? Teams aren't really keen on trading their superstars for nothing, and usually re-sign them before they become free agents.

If there is a deal to bring in a young superstar that makes sense, then I'm sure Benning would be all over it. But those deals don't really exist. Drafting is really the only way to replace your aging superstars, or have something that another team wants. 

 

Everyone blames Linden and Benning for the place we are in, where really what they inherited was exactly this. They have done a good job so far brining in a young defense and getting some younger players. But when the future has been sold for years, this is what your team looks like when your players get old and can't produce like they used to. We had no one to step in and take over, we've gotta get those players through the draft.

[TheGuardian_]

59 minutes ago, greenbean30 said:

Everyone blames Linden and Benning for the place we are in, where really what they inherited was exactly this. They have done a good job so far brining in a young defense and getting some younger players. But when the future has been sold for years, this is what your team looks like when your players get old and can't produce like they used to. We had no one to step in and take over, we've gotta get those players through the draft.

Why haven't they made any deals to move up or down at the draft, the Canuck need is desperate. Linden admitted they knew the team was borderline and needed rebuilding when they started.

To say they "will just draft the Sedin replacements in the next two drafts" is really overly being optimistic unless, as I said, it doesn't matter the skill level they will just be crowned the replacements and then the team sells hope for improvement for 3 or 4 more years as they float around in the middle of the pack.

Seeing as how good McCann and Virtanen are on this team, I mean, well, maybe both those players had more value as being 1rst round picks, maybe those picks could/should have traded to improve the drafting position.

 

The future wasn't sold for years, Detroit traded away over half their number 1 picks for more than a decade and they are going to miss the playoffs for the first time in 23 years, the Canucks, 3 of the last 4 years. Gillis had two picks in the top 10 and that was it, he started the rebuild by trading Schnieder for Horvat. He was all in for Larkin but was canned and the team, without goal tending might have been a lottery team for the next two years. You have to be bad (get top 3 drafts picks) before you can be good.

[Baggins]

3 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Playoffs chances would be similar in either case. IMO, Miller has quietly provided the patches for this creaking, leaky vessel. 

 

Your point about elite prospects suggests that our vets are/were not worth much, and you will be proved right if JB and the prez of the Country Club continue to wait to sell off declining players. With these vets gone and their scrub trade returns occupying key roles, this team might look like a Carolina, Buffalo or Arizona, minus the top picks, which would logically be drafted next. 

 

The Country Club would be once again closed down and replaced with the lunchbox and blue chip prospects and yes, more filler Skille types, meanwhile, but through those few years past and this one, JB would be drafting with extra quality picks that he seems to have an aversion to, in reality.

 

I think watching a hungry, young roster of promise and intrigue is far more worthy of my time than watching the slow, methodical death march of the enevitable like we currently are. This team is currently on pace to rebuild on the same pace as Montreal or St Louis, arguably Pittsburg or Chicago too; merely using the draft to supplement their cores rather than replace them, also foregoing the trading of their declining vets, assuming that these teams have peaked, or in other cases, are against the cap or are making room for emerging rookies, etc. JB is currently rebuilding this team with the same strategic pace as an elite or competitive team.

 

I'd argue that it's fans like you, cheering for TL's refool, death-march hockey, are what's keeping these management team employed, rather than the tanker's philosophy, which has called for an end to the fading music of the idea of making the playoffs, for the sake of it, inspiite of the long term, scrub results from not actually rebuilding from the ground up.

 

Refool is the only brand of hockey I can say TL has delivered during his PR stint with this team and it's trendy city. The TDL is almost here again and you can almost hear the hockey world heave out yet another collective sign of disbelief at the philosophy this management annually demonstrates, as the clock winds down on another poorly executed rebuild strategy. 

 

Assuming that the work management has do do to rebuild is not to merely replace each expiring core player here as they implode into untradeable assets, how else does one describe the process that has got the current roster into a position that has the rebuild pace resemble a contenders, if it's not a refooling, rather than a rebuilding strategy. Selling the playoffs rather than a future is for you to swallow, but it's not for me. I remain dissapointed, but hopeful that things work out and they get lucky, not to be confused with effective, as managers. 

 

 

Country club blah blah blah bs. You lost me at country club.

[Westcoasting]

2 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Actually not exactly accurate. The team traded for Luongo and that changed the odds. They started the season @ 20 to 1 tied, for 11th best odds in Vegas.

This year Vegas had them at 80 to 1, 100 to 1 and predicted they would be the third worst, although one of the two teams below them are different.

This is not exactly accurate either... the previous year they were ranked with higher odds and dropped a bit in 2006 2007 season. But yes at no time were they ranked to be a bottom feeder.

[Nice Finnish]

6 minutes ago, Westcoasting said:

This is not exactly accurate either... the previous year they were ranked with higher odds and dropped a bit in 2006 2007 season. But yes at no time were they ranked to be a bottom feeder.

This year?

[Baggins]

3 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Actually not exactly accurate. The team traded for Luongo and that changed the odds. They started the season @ 20 to 1 tied, for 11th best odds in Vegas.

This year Vegas had them at 80 to 1, 100 to 1 and predicted they would be the third worst, although one of the two teams below them are different.

The trade for Luongo happened in June. Long before the season started. Eleven players gone, including Bertuzzi, Jovonovski, and Carter, plus a new coach. We were predicted to be near bottom in the west because of our lack offense.

[Westcoasting]

4 hours ago, Nice Finnish said:

This year?

Ten years ago.

[Crabcakes]

8 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Heard on the radio the other day, Benning etal will "just" draft the Sedin replacements in the next two drafts. If it is that easy why didn't he do it in the other two?

Or, scary part here, ANYONE he drafts will be the Sedin replacements, regardless of skill level.

Or, you could look at it another way.  The priority is "just" (only) forwards.  Which is kinda what I said.

 

Not to say Benning wouldn't take a D if he was a great opportunity.  Benning is known as a hard worker.  He does his homework and doesn't pick just anybody.  His record shows that.  When he is the guy making final decisions on who to pick, so far he has done pretty well.

 

 

[DSVII]

For those of you who paint every one who doesn't want to compete now as a tanker.  It's not about losing, it's about assets.

 

This is the end game of a rebuilder. We needed to be on this path 2 years ago.

 

 

 

The compete crowd are basically betting Benning can out draft our opponents who are rebuilding with fewer picks and lesser quality picks at that. (3rds/5ths/7ths, which Benning usually returns in his trades)

 

I'd rather maximize the odds.

 

The only difference between the placing of the team under a rebuild and a compete strategy, is that the rebuild version has more picks. The product on the ice is the same in both scenarios (25th-30th placed team)

[Alflives]

16 minutes ago, DSVII said:

For those of you who paint every one who doesn't want to compete now as a tanker.  It's not about losing, it's about assets.

 

This is the end game of a rebuilder. We needed to be on this path 2 years ago.

 

 

 

The compete crowd are basically betting Benning can out draft our opponents who are rebuilding with fewer picks and lesser quality picks at that. (3rds/5ths/7ths, which Benning usually returns in his trades)

 

I'd rather maximize the odds.

 

The only difference between the placing of the team under a rebuild and a compete strategy, is that the rebuild version has more picks. The product on the ice is the same in both scenarios (25th-30th placed team)

I really don't understand how anyone can argue against us getting more (and better) picks as anything but a good thing?  

[Crabcakes]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

I really don't understand how anyone can argue against us getting more (and better) picks as anything but a good thing?  

Picks are good Alf.  And I'm a competer......kind of.....

 

What the argument really is is Drafting vs Development.

 

Drafting = Tankers = more and better picks

 

Development = Competing = better experience makes the players you have already improve

 

Drafting means getting 1 or 2 or 3 more players who are good at 17 years old

 

Developing means helping all 23 roster players get better.  (and your AHL and ECHL affiliated players too if you set up things right)

 

It's clearly complicated and better to do both things well.  This is really where I sit fwiw.  Competing isn't the only thing that makes your team develop.  Culture, mentorship and other things help too

 

Mike Babcock really wants his Leafs to make the playoffs because, he says, the experience will do his kids a world of good.  Duh!!

 

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Crabcakes said:

Picks are good Alf.  And I'm a competer......kind of.....

 

What the argument really is is Drafting vs Development.

 

Drafting = Tankers = more and better picks

 

Development = Competing = better experience makes the players you have already improve

 

Drafting means getting 1 or 2 or 3 more players who are good at 17 years old

 

Developing means helping all 23 roster players get better.

 

It's clearly complicated and better to do both things well.  This is really where I sit fwiw.  Competing isn't the only thing that makes your team develop.  Culture, mentorship and other things help too

 

Mike Babcock really wants his Leafs to make the playoffs because, he says, the experience will do his kids a world of good.  Duh!!

I agree with you CC.  I just see the higher the pick (and more of them too) the more likely we will have players, given the right environment, develop into elite ones.  If we have middle of the road prospects, then even given the best development, we end up with an average team.